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yes they have , they were bombed dumb ass. An entire family was killed, and guess what they were just probobly hiding hezbollah soldiers right?

At 7/16/06 04:13 PM, gooze_bump wrote: Thats a pretty big offensive generalization there too, or at least misconception. Just because they do not agree with Israel 100%, does not make them anti-semitic, hypocrite.

Its not a generalization if I say it about an organization like that. I'm talking about the organization as a whole, not necessarily all of its members (which is not the same as generalizing about a group of people of which all its members do not fit the generalization).

I'm not calling them that because they don't agree with Israel 100%, but because it seems they are quicker to condemn Israel's response to terrorism than condemn the terrorism itself (not to say that they never do).

At 7/16/06 04:44 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: Do you even understand what I am saying? These increased rocket attacks started the second both sides decided they were at war. I dont remember Hezbollah declaring all out war on Israel before Israel bombed them. I am not excusing their actions but the current problems of rockets landing in Haifa, Israel played a very major role contributing to that escalation.

I suppose that kidnapping soldiers and firing rockets is not a declaration of war….? If Israel did nothing the rocket attacks would have increased anyway.

At 7/16/06 05:17 PM, gooze_bump wrote: A murder is still a murder. A war with a country over two soliders and agaisnt a small group of fighters is not justifiable no amtter what way u try to slice it

The point is that Israel doesn’t murder civilians, as much as it kills them. Murder is intentional, killing is taking action that results in someone’s death. All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder.

At 7/16/06 05:07 PM, -Michael- wrote:

At 7/16/06 05:00 PM, Turandot wrote:

Of course its a bad thing. do you know Israelis were droppign bombs on apartment compelxes but wound up killing mostly civilians isntead? Use ground forces to go after HEzbollah isntead of indescrintaly bombing the entire country. Jusat becuase Hebollah did it does'nt mean it gives yout he right to do the same thing too.

Ground forces would not be as effective, and would get Israel bogged down on a long campaign that would be too much like the occupation before.

Once again, a killing is still a killing. The victim does no tcare if it is "cold blood" or not. They are still dead.

That is true.

:: These are people who are sworn to destroy Israel, which simply, is impossible and evil, unless you're a Nazi.

I will agree with you there, but how you handle the situation is where our opinions differ greatly.

So, how should Israel handle the situation?

At 7/16/06 06:07 PM, gooze_bump wrote:

Murder, if I am not mistaken, means that you mean to kill someone for a bad cause. This decription doesn't fit tis situation because we are not trying to kill them, we are trying to avoid it. It is killing and nothing more.

ok, so u dont mruder innocent people, you kill them, yeah big difference.

Yeah. There is a big difference.

well israel is really the only naation who does crack down on terrorists and palestines goverment is operating from them

so israel has the right to what there doing and plus the jews AND ONLY THE JEWS deserve that land because they were there before the islam faith by 2,600 years!

terorists? ohh you mean hezbollah and the palestinies trying to get there land back? israel is more of a terorist then those two.

Hey 4aces look on the bright side, now you have a free 6:00 AM wakeup call :D
Man those sirens must get so annoying. I hope you have ear plugs or something hah.

At 7/16/06 10:08 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote: I suppose that kidnapping soldiers and firing rockets is not a declaration of war….? If Israel did nothing the rocket attacks would have increased anyway.

I dont remember Israel declaring war on the Palestinians and threatening to set them back 20 years when Cpl. Shalit was captured. The escalation in Lebanon happened after both sides decided they were to openly fight eachother. There was a more sane choice here, that being Mossad or special forces or selected bombing of Hezbollah targets. Or trying to work within Lebanon to release the soldiers. Not bombing whatever you want all over Lebanon. It was an avenue left untraveled. Israel played a very real part in that missed opportunity and the subsequent escalation.

At 7/16/06 08:26 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: At the very least, Israel is in the right in this case, just like invading Afghanistan was right. However, unless there's Syrian escalation, Israel ought not attack syria. Yet.

Make the case that Lebanon was ever a party to Hezbollahs unilateral actions and/or supported them and/or harbored them or stop comparing it to Afghanistan.

You can keep echoing it as much as you want but it doesnt make it right.

At 7/16/06 07:15 PM, 4aces wrote: what is wrong with all the damn insults here ???

You want me to go back and refrence what you said to me? I wouldnt point fingers when you have 4 pointing straight back at you.

At 7/16/06 06:49 PM, Lidov wrote: I agree, because killing millions of innocent people is always the best solution. I believe that the world hasn't learned anything from the holocaust, how disappointing.

Why are you poking fun at what I said?

If you arent, my apologies. If you are trying to insult me, cut it the fuck out. I have said nothing against you.

At 7/16/06 06:35 PM, gooze_bump wrote: Once again they are still dead, no use to get hung up on the wording.

There is a large difference. You dont prosecute a accidental killing for a death penalty. You prosecute murderers for that.

They have hugely different connotations.

At 7/16/06 06:12 PM, 4aces wrote: "a fool is the one who takes it upon himself to call others fools .."

You are a fool and I really dont care if you think I am a fool because I am calling you one. I have changed my position with Akula. I never thought some of the other posters are a fool.

You are.

At 7/16/06 08:24 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Source?

I tried to find statistics for civilian casualties on both sides. They are not findable. I also tried with rockets and there frequency of fire. Also not findable.

But it is common sense. I never heard of 20 dying in a day on either side before. I never heard of a rocket getting as far as Haifa before. I never heard of hundreds of rockets being fired into Israel in a day before. I cannot prove it but it is all a gathering of the information in my head that I have and organizing it.

Rockets have been raining down on Israel all the time! From Lebanon as well as Gaza, but Israel has exercised TREMENDOUS restraint.

Again, I have not argued. But in this instance, more rockets are being fired and landing in Israel from Lebanon. Israel played a part in that escalation by bombing Lebanon unilaterally and as quickly as they did.

Was there a better solution? Yes. Would I have take it if I was Israels leader? Doubtful. I understand why things happen but this cycle of violence only perpetuates more violence. Both sides have a part in it.

I HAVE my positions. They apply. I support this attack just like I supported the attack on Afghanistan. It's essentially the same thing.

Whatever. I wasnt refrencing that but anyway, I see similarities but they are sparse and weak. Its like comparing Iraq to Vietnam. There are comparisons but they are so infintesimal as to be worthless.

At 7/16/06 09:55 PM, AcidRebel wrote: israel hasn't killed 8 Canadians, if it happened it would be all over the Canadian and american news which it isn't also that wouldforce Canada to get involved diplomatically

Atleast 7 canadians dead from an Israeli attack in Lebanon. So Would you like to recall your statement?

Being this is the largest of the Israel conflict threads this one will now beocme the place for all discussions over the Israel/Lebanon/rest of the world discussions.

At 7/16/06 06:37 PM, Lidov wrote:

At 7/16/06 06:35 PM, gooze_bump wrote: Once again they are still dead and blah blah.

We, as mentioned before many times, are always warning before bombing crowded places. We told all of the south Lebanon citizens to leave north so that they won't get hurt. You can't really blame us if they didn't leave.

Same old crap eh Lidov?

A convoy of three cars left two hours after being warned to leave, they got blown up as they left by Isreal missiles. Civilians only. Women and children only. Doing what Isreal said, targetted on purpose.

That is MURDER. How do you deny it? They did what you said, they left their homes with what little they could have and no weapons, got in their two cars and a pickup and drove to find somewhere to go.

Your murdering pilots and army launched missiles at them and killed most of them.

Targetting civilians.

At 7/16/06 06:49 PM, Lidov wrote:

At 7/16/06 06:42 PM, shakiko wrote: I now consider Israel a problem that cannot be fixed therefor i cant wait until Iran nukes your asses.

I agree, because killing millions of innocent people is always the best solution. I believe that the world hasn't learned anything from the holocaust, how disappointing.

Oh lets bringing the holocaust up again because we're talking about Isreal!

So far three of your Isreal friends including Akula have said "LET LEBANNON BURN< I DONT CARE IF THEY ALL DIE!!!"

Holocaust anyone? Hyporcritical anyone>

If Israel attacks Syria, that's it... it's over for them, that's it with Israel.

Iran promised to fight back if Israel attacks Syria, but the problem is, Iran has 12 million people in their armed forces.

Israel has 7 million people in their ENTIRE COUNTRY.

Breaking News

Tony Blair and the UN call for international peace-keeping force to goto Lebanon.

Source

I think it's a good idea, although it may mean more deaths. If the Lebanon military and the UN force can help each other they can contain and disarm Hezbollah. If the Israeli's disagree then it shows they don't want peace efforts.

Some downsides are the possibility of civil war, UN deaths and Isreal bombing the UN 'by mistake'.

At least Tony Blair is trying and willing to make a stand by himself as a world leader.

We're all familiar with the plight of the innocent Jewish people. The numerous amalekites with their eyes turned towards genocide. Is it not their survival against all odds a testament of their place as God's chosen? From ancient times to modern, against Haman and Hitler? We can see this pattern emerging in the modern day. Israel's neighbors have already tried to kill Her; we can remember the Six Day War and now we have the arab states trying to murder Her again. Never again, as has been said by many before regarding the plot of the amalekites to kill these people off. Never again!

Israel has always sought peace with Her neighbors, and has been a good friend to all willing to put aside anti-Semitic rhetoric that is echoed ad naseum. Her neighbors do not listen: Israel begs, Israel pleads, the Arabic Terrorists only kill more innocent Jewish people. No deal will emerge from these people that does not involve the slow, willfull, massacre of the Jewish people globally. This is not a campaign of terroritory or resources. This is a movement to eviscerate the people that God has chosen to be the zenith of spirituality, those who carve the path for gentiles to trod, to light the path for those who cannot see in the dark. The amalekites do not think like you or I, and certainly they do not think like the Jews. They think like murderous dogs, a pack of vulgar animals with no sense of hygiene or personal morals, much less Godly ones. I do not mean to say that every Arabic person is a filthy amalekite, of course, as CACA is firmly rooted against racism in any shape or form (is it not written in Galatians 3:28?), but we must admit that they, as a whole, have a vendetta against God's chosen race that stems from he who was cast out of heaven.

Christian Apocalyptic Churches Association

Orthodox bullcrap, i do not recognise the book of revelations, although i'm christian.

At 7/17/06 04:11 AM, 3rd_Front wrote: We're all familiar with the plight of the innocent Jewish people. The numerous amalekites with their eyes turned towards genocide. Is it not their survival against all odds a testament of their place as God's chosen? From ancient times to modern, against Haman and Hitler?

"God's chosen people" Thats why he let 6 million of u die. Here's a joke, what do u call 13 jews in an oven.....A bakers dozen. Am i cruel or what? Anyway I have no sympathy at Israel and its war of agression. I dont feel sorry for people who is fucking over a young democracy such as Lebanon andplanning to invade multiple coutnries which is goign to cause houndred of thousands of deaths jsut ebcuase like what less that 400 of thier people have died. fuck that.

At 7/17/06 04:30 AM, gooze_bump wrote:

. I dont feel sorry for people who is fucking over a young democracy such as Lebanon andplanning to invade multiple coutnries which is goign to cause houndred of thousands of deaths jsut ebcuase like what less that 400 of thier people have died. fuck that.

Yeah i noticed you don't.
But i do sympathise with them, they we're doing their best trying to restore the peace, but then those Hamas fucks kidnapped a soldier, and a Colonist.
Israel went out of their minds because Hamas screwed it up.
BUt then Hezbollah kidnapped another soldier...
what would you do?
Strike back, or ask them politly to bring them back.,

I don't care how many Civillians die, they we're stupid enough not to turn Hezbollah in!
They knew what was going to happen, they saw what happend to Gaza!
And they did just nothing to stop it.

At 7/17/06 04:46 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote: I don't care how many Civillians die, they we're stupid enough not to turn Hezbollah in!
They knew what was going to happen, they saw what happend to Gaza!
And they did just nothing to stop it.

To be fair, it's not too easy for civilians to turn in armed terrorists.

At 7/16/06 03:28 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:

At 7/16/06 03:26 PM, AccessCode wrote: Actually I think it's time to do more to support Israel, at least they have the balls to do something about that terrorist group.

That's exactly what we should be doing! Travel to Israel! Hell, I'm going for my first time this August.

SHit, that's 4 people already. Including me.

Where are you going to?

strike back with appropiate force. if someone slaps you, you dont shoot them in the face and all their relatives and everone standing aroudn them. I want evidence that ALL the citziens of Lebanon, including the new born babies, knew where Hezbollah were hiding, kenw exatcly at what time rockets would be fired, and cheered it on. Ocne again what do u want the citizens to do? I see alot of shit the US Govt. does that is horrible, but as a citzen i am powerless to change it. Should I die becuase of it? Oh you dont care how many of their cilivans die, well i dont care how many israeli civlians die, your lives are not worth more than a Lebonese or Palestinians. Don't act like Israel never did anthing wrong. was'nt it jsut likea week ago they shelled that beach that they were not suppsoe to be on and killed those Palestians? Then lied about it. Oh but to you thats fine right, as long as no Israeli is dead. Did palestine go adn drop bombs all over your infrastructure blowing up your roads and brdiges destroying your economy becuase of that injustice. Is colelctive punishment not fairgame at that point for them? I ahte you hypocrites. You feel your so special and above everyone else. Soemone needs tog et slap you into place.

Hezbollah is not the entire country. Its like the KKK is not entirely America. How many tiems must i reiterate this. Send in ground troops to get them, why not, becuse your pussies so you'll jsut drop bomb from the skies no matter who it kills? If you dont beleive Israel is using unjsut force at this time you can burn in hell with Hitler, your suppoesd enemy but seemed to be hero.

At 7/17/06 05:02 AM, -Akula- wrote:

At 7/16/06 03:28 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:

At 7/16/06 03:26 PM, AccessCode wrote: Actually I think it's time to do more to support Israel, at least they have the balls to do something about that terrorist group.

That's exactly what we should be doing! Travel to Israel! Hell, I'm going for my first time this August.

SHit, that's 4 people already. Including me.

Make it 5.

Where are you going to?

You can treat the guys over at the IDF with a pizza.
Pizza IDF

At 7/17/06 05:02 AM, -Akula- wrote: Where are you going to?

You can treat the guys over at the IDF with a pizza.
Pizza IDF

Sorry, I read it as "what are you going to do?" ...

At 7/17/06 05:00 AM, Dzex wrote:

At 7/17/06 04:46 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote: I don't care how many Civillians die, they we're stupid enough not to turn Hezbollah in!
They knew what was going to happen, they saw what happend to Gaza!
And they did just nothing to stop it.

To be fair, it's not too easy for civilians to turn in armed terrorists.

well, most active terrorists, are 18 year old boys with no job and a identity problem.
So the parents can do it! Its the whole hood against them! I mean, the terrorists cant go on without support of their own community.

At 7/17/06 04:46 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote:

well, most active terrorists, are 18 year old boys with no job and a identity problem.
So the parents can do it! Its the whole hood against them! I mean, the terrorists cant go on without support of their own community.

I see your ignoring my post. I will claim this as a victory.

At 7/17/06 05:04 AM, gooze_bump wrote: strike back with appropiate force. if someone slaps you, you dont shoot them in the face and all their relatives and everone standing aroudn them.

An appropriate force would be.. launching katyusha missiles into Lebanonese towns and kidnapping two Lebanonese soldiers?

I would like to add a few things I noticed.

First off, people seem to believe that war should be fair. It's not. If would would had been fair, then Israel should had sent out suicide bombers. If someone holding a knive to your throath and you can shoot him then you do that. You do not take the risk. If you pull out a knive you can get into a cat and mouse game and things will only get worse and last longer.
If I am flying in an Apache helicopter and a terrorist is holding a stinger on his shoulder and aiming at me. Even if he has a kid covering him, then I am going to shoot. Because it's either him or me, and I'd rather survive than die. Yes I am sorry for the kid, but if his dad is so fucked up then I am still forced to do what I am forced to do. You don't see soldiers with kids. now do you? Tell me atleast one self respecting military that would send the families of the soldiers to protect the soldiers.

Apart from that I've noticed that most of the people who support israel, even outside of this forum and that are not Israeli, are soldiers. Either that or people who have been on the spot and know what it's about and have seen it with their own eyes. If an arab crosses the border between gaza or Lebanon they are going to get captured and put into a call with A/C, aa\part from that they are going to get an education. It's too dangerous for them to go into the territory because they will get shot at, so the least they can do is change the views of those who support terrorists in their own land.

3rd point. Army mentality. When you are a commander, your troops are like family. And I know this sounds harsh but trust me that to a commander one of his soldiers, his family members, because that's what they are, is worth an entire village of Lebanese. And an army shall not send it troops to a zone unless it knows that the safety of it's troops can be guaranteed. And if anything happens with those troops then they will try to get them back. Just like any other army would do.

Apart from that Israel does punish it's troops if they handle innapropriate. They go to court, just like any other captured arab and they get sentenced. The difference is that they get sentenced and get put in conditions far worse than any arab captive.

4th. People seem to believe that Israel has some uber army. They don't have enough special forces to go into Lebanon and rescue every innocent civilian. Heck the special forces they have ( a couple of VERY select teams) are busy defending the nation at teh Golan and other spots. Apart from that I would like to say that the South of Lebanon is considered to be fatah land and thus most if inhabitants are criminals and terrorists or supporters of terrorists. If you don't believe me you should had watched CNN yesterday as they went through a village and all of the women, men and children were saying as how they ALWAYS have supported Hesbollah and will support hesbollah.
There is no army in the world that can pick out 1 out of every 100 people who just so happens to be innocent. Innocents die in every war, it's sad, you don't like it, I don't like it, but we can't help it. Israel's army is so famous because they have very well trained soldiers, not because they have soldiers in numbers. Prove here (look at the chart)

Also it is believed that Hesbollah still has a small arsenal left of radio active weapons. Mossad has confirmed this and this only puts more pressure on the situation and on the army.

The fact that the Israeli army has done the dirty work for Lebanon once and has helped the country financially (yes they have) already proves that they don't want them all dead.

Apart from that, these people are indirectly saving all of your asses. These people are destroying those who plan and finance attacks against the entire western world.

Sarai, if you come into Lebanon even with a UN shirt on then they will either capture you or shoot you just because you are from the western world. Even those innocent people will do that.

And it is their own government's responsibility to change their views, to teach them that Hesbollah is a terrorist organisation and that they are the ones ruining their lives. You cannot honestly accept that Israel will send it troops on a suicide mission by sending them into southern Lebanon. And don't even dare to compare this to Iraq because that is totally different, and if you don't realise why I will be happy to explain.

So most of you people have a very twisted way of Israel. The media can't cover all of it, especially not the internal affairs.

At 7/17/06 06:03 AM, gooze_bump wrote:

At 7/17/06 04:46 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote:

well, most active terrorists, are 18 year old boys with no job and a identity problem.
So the parents can do it! Its the whole hood against them! I mean, the terrorists cant go on without support of their own community.

I see your ignoring my post. I will claim this as a victory.

He's not ingoring your post. You claimed it to be hard for civilians to turn in terrorists, he said it wasn't. No victory for you.

At 7/17/06 06:10 AM, -Akula- wrote: I would like to add a few things I noticed.

First off, people seem to believe that war should be fair. It's not. If would would had been fair, then Israel should had sent out suicide bombers. If someone holding a knive to your throath and you can shoot him then you do that. You do not take the risj....

Point is your going to WAR with citziens, not Hezbollah.

If I am flying in an Apache helicopter......

Yeah sure, they have stingers, let me see the sources for that. oh thats right, if. Maybe your not fighting soldiers, duh, your fighting regular citizens.

Apart from that I've noticed that most of the people who support israel, even outside of this forum and that are not Israeli, are soldiers. Either that or people who have been on the spot and know what it's about and have seen it with their own eyes. If an arab crosses the border between gaza or Lebanon they are going to get captured and put into a call with A/C, aa\part from that they are going to get an education. It's too dangerous for them to go into the territory because they will get shot at, so the least they can do is change the views of those who support terrorists in their own land.

Exactly, this should not be a MILITARY solution, but a POLICE one.

3rd point. Army mentality. When you are a commander, your troops are like family. And I know this sounds harsh but trust me that to a commander one of his soldiers, his family members, because that's what they are, is worth an entire village of Lebanese. And an army shall not send it troops to a zone unless it knows that the safety of it's troops can be guaranteed. And if anything happens with those troops then they will try to get them back. Just like any other army would do.

So that makes it right to kill everyone else without worryign as ong as the soldiers are safe. Waht aabout the innocent people you kill, they don't have families? Their families are'nt worth as much? It absolves you of the right ebcuase u dotnw any of your sodleris to die when u INVADE a soverign nationa nd dont even have the courtesy to worry about the civilians.

Apart from that Israel does punish it's troops if they handle innapropriate. They go to court, just like any other captured arab and they get sentenced. The difference is that they get sentenced and get put in conditions far worse than any arab captive.

I don't know about this so i wont comment.

4th. People seem to believe that Israel has some uber army. They don't have enough special forces to go into Lebanon and rescue every innocent civilian. Heck the special forces they have ( a couple of VERY select teams) are busy defending the nation at teh Golan and other spots. Apart from that I would like to say that the South of Lebanon is considered to be fatah land and thus most if inhabitants are criminals and terrorists or supporters of terrorists. If you don't believe me you should had watched CNN yesterday as they went through a village and all of the women, men and children were saying as how they ALWAYS have supported Hesbollah and will support hesbollah.
There is no army in the world that can pick out 1 out of every 100 people who just so happens to be innocent. Innocents die in every war, it's sad, you don't like it, I don't like it, but we can't help it. Israel's army is so famous because they have very well trained soldiers, not because they have soldiers in numbers. Prove here (look at the chart)

They have the 7th best army in the world, thats pretty uber to me. What areo you talking about alright not even special forces, regualr forces. THey are in the MIlitary theys houdl accept the fact that they can potenially die. No theya re famous ebcuase they have mOney and american weapons.

Also it is believed that Hesbollah still has a small arsenal left of radio active weapons. Mossad has confirmed this and this only puts more pressure on the situation and on the army.

Source?

The fact that the Israeli army has done the dirty work for Lebanon once and has helped the country financially (yes they have) already proves that they don't want them all dead.

No Hezbollah helped the lebanonese get out of Israeli OCCUPATION in 2000. Im s ure Israel suoported them finacnicllybecuase u occupied them.

Apart from that, these people are indirectly saving all of your asses. These people are destroying those who plan and finance attacks against the entire western world.

I enver ehard HEzbollah say they were going to bomb me. IS it worth a war. REeally. "LEts go to war and kill MIllions of people, so we can save a few." I have a higher chance of dieing from a lignhtning tstike than a terrorist attack. Your studid mind games don't work on me fool.

Sarai, if you come into Lebanon even with a UN shirt on then they will either capture you or shoot you just because you are from the western world. Even those innocent people will do that.

WEll eyah i still would be pissed if the world is watchign my couytnry get bombed adn doing nothign about it.

And it is their own government's responsibility to change their views, to teach them that Hesbollah is a terrorist organisation and that they are the ones ruining their lives. You cannot honestly accept that Israel will send it troops on a suicide mission by sending them into southern Lebanon. And don't even dare to compare this to Iraq because that is totally different, and if you don't realise why I will be happy to explain.

Ok if its their governments repso.n why are U bombing them. No Israel wont send it troops into a suicde mission, they'll just drop omb from the skies and kills innocense too. Not to be man but to me thats more of pussy way.

So most of you people have a very twisted way of Israel. The media can't cover all of it, especially not the internal affairs.

WTF are u talkigna bout. I turn on the news and i seeimages of rocket attacks in Israel but never any of LEbanon. THe media is biased FOR israel 100% dont give m that bullshit.

At 7/17/06 06:13 AM, -Akula- wrote:

He's not ingoring your post. You claimed it to be hard for civilians to turn in terrorists, he said it wasn't. No victory for you.

that was'nt my post. dumbass.

A lot of powerful and influential Americans are Jewish. That would explain why there appears to be a "corruptions."

At 7/17/06 06:48 AM, Flashthinker wrote: A lot of powerful and influential Americans are Jewish. That would explain why there appears to be a "corruptions."

yeah and alot of them have a higher callign to Israel than their own country ebcuase int herir minds, the both are intertwined.