Palastinians

[Cahenn]

I gave the issue some thought. I wanna hear what people think the Palastinians should do. I thought about it for some time today and the whole situation is fucked up. On one hand theres the corrupt Fatah who takes their money, on another there's the Hamas which is less corrupt but because of it targetting Israeli civilians openly, it doesn't get any international support anyway.

Whatever they do they're screwed :( My heart goes out for them. I'm wondering what you guys think the Palastinians should do.

I'm an Israeli myself for the protocol

[Sir-S-Of-TURBO]

Id say the palastinians should get some sort of non-government representetive to request an UN intervention so the government could be replaced with one more friendly to israel UNDER the observation of UN soldiers. That way we dont risk hamas-2 or something like it to come and take over the country by force. Im not saying this is a good thing to do, im saying its the least bad. In this situation there doesnt seem to be any good options...

[Cahenn]

At 7/5/06 02:01 PM, Dark_Raven01 wrote: stuff

First of all Hamas was elected democratically, although it was not elected for its attitude towards Israel. Second of all, do you expect the current government to just withdraw and let the UN run things its own way? No offense but noone there (nor here) really gives a shit about the UN...

[TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID]

hmmm commit massivly suicide is the easiest solution.

But that wasn't a political correct statement soo...

I think they should just pressure the folks that holded the soldier hostage to let him free, and continue on nagotiating. It went pretty well before the kidnapping!(i think.)

[HighlyIllogical]

What should they do?

1. Return all Israeli hostages.
2. Have massive recall elections.
3. Vote for a secular government.
4. Have that government say: "We recognize Israel's inherent right to exist and will commit ourselves to peace. To that end, we will withdraw from the West Bank."

[Cahenn]

At 7/5/06 06:24 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: 1. Return all Israeli hostages.

On what terms, and how can the Palastinian people accomplish that?

2. Have massive recall elections.

Right... how? and who would they vote for?

3. Vote for a secular government.

Where, When?

4. Have that government say: "We recognize Israel's inherent right to exist and will commit ourselves to peace. To that end, we will withdraw from the West Bank."

On what terms?

[HighlyIllogical]

At 7/5/06 06:26 PM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/5/06 06:24 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: 1. Return all Israeli hostages.

On what terms, and how can the Palastinian people accomplish that?

With massive recalls. Uh. Yeah, either that or say "Hamas! Get the **** out. We don't want Fatah either. We want a real democracy with real choices and freedom."

2. Have massive recall elections.

Right... how? and who would they vote for?

Not Fatah or Hamas.

3. Vote for a secular government.

Where, When?

In massive recalls.

4. Have that government say: "We recognize Israel's inherent right to exist and will commit ourselves to peace. To that end, we will withdraw from the West Bank."

On what terms?

On the terms that: "Whereas, Israel has offered peace since 1948 and has recently withdrawn from some occupied territories and has halted settlement building."

[Cahenn]

At 7/5/06 06:31 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: With massive recalls. Uh. Yeah, either that or say "Hamas! Get the **** out. We don't want Fatah either. We want a real democracy with real choices and freedom."

That's the problem, both Hamas and Fatah have armies, you go ahead and make them quit.

Right... how? and who would they vote for?

Not Fatah or Hamas.

I haven't asked who would they not vote for :P

In massive recalls.

Do you really believe Fatah or Hamas would allow that

On the terms that: "Whereas, Israel has offered peace since 1948 and has recently withdrawn from some occupied territories and has halted settlement building."

Israel hasn't offered Palastinains peace untill 1995, it didn't even recognize them as a nation untill 1992. Aside from that, there are territorial issues, financial issues, who-gets-what issues, connecting the gaza strip with the west bank issues and so on. Aside from that, who is going to run these negociations, and what makes you think all Palastinians will agree to them?

[firstJEWISHpope]

Palestinians had a reason to elect Hamas. First of all you have to take into consideration that their former leader Yesser Arafat took all the palestinian money and funds to his own pocket. All palestinians wanted was a decent way of living, so then Hamas came along and said "we will get you everything you want" and they blamed everything on the jews and Israelis. (Adolf Hitler rose to power in a very similar way) the palestinians had nowhere else to look for hopes of better life so they elected Hamas. At this point in their lives they didn't even care if Hamas was a terrorist they really belived that they could give them a better way of living. You have to understand that the palestinians are'nt very educated and didnt take into consideration of what would happen if they voted for Hamas. Is THIS what Hamas considers a better life?
Its theyre fault they dug themselves in another hole. Israel withdrawd from Gaza and palestinians were given a chance to vote on a new government. They are only getting what they asked for.

[nafs]

At 7/5/06 02:01 PM, Dark_Raven01 wrote: Id say the palastinians should get some sort of non-government representetive to request an UN intervention so the government could be replaced with one more friendly to israel UNDER the observation of UN soldiers. That way we dont risk hamas-2 or something like it to come and take over the country by force. Im not saying this is a good thing to do, im saying its the least bad. In this situation there doesnt seem to be any good options...

Are Americans really this ignorant?

As previously stated, Hamas was elected democratically. The US claims to stand for democracy and freedom, but when people choose the "wrong" option, democracy is all of a sudden not that important?

A country doesn't have to be west-friendly to be a democracy, get that through your head.

[TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID]

says the guy with the "god bless america banner"

[haM-haM-tito]

as far as i can see, it does not matter what the palestinian should do,
in fact they cant do anything ... what can people, live under occupation and pressure, do? simply: nothing!

[JoS]

Umm if an election were held ttomorrow in Palestine I can almost guarenette Hamas would hold evry seat, it would not bring in a more moderate government, but probally a mor ehardline one.

Why do we always say Palestine has to recognize Israel's rigth to exsist. Why doesnt anyone demand Israel recognize Plaestines rights?

[Dragon-Smaug]

At 7/5/06 07:00 PM, Cahenn wrote: recognize them as a nation untill 1992.

I wasn’t aware the Palestinians were recognized as a nation…..

The Palestinians have no good party. They need a young politician to rise up and form a new party, including on its agenda peace with Israel.

At 7/6/06 11:44 AM, Hannetz wrote: Are Americans really this ignorant?

Of course Americans are ignorant. So is the world, really, about most issues.

A country doesn't have to be west-friendly to be a democracy, get that through your head.

A country does not have to declare that its neighbor has no right to exist, and declare eternal war on it either. But, well, Hamas does. Also, well, Hamas is a terrorist organization. So, its not that the Palestinians’ choice isn’t respected (I don’t blame them; Hamas didn’t run on a terrorist-focused platform), its just that being elected doesn’t free the terrorists from the repercussions of their actions. Get that through your head.

At 7/6/06 09:20 PM, JoS wrote: Why do we always say Palestine has to recognize Israel's rigth to exsist.

…..

Why doesnt anyone demand Israel recognize Plaestines rights?

They don’t have a right to attack Israel. What Palestinians' rights is Israel not recognizing?

[JMHX]

At 7/5/06 01:44 PM, Cahenn wrote:
Whatever they do they're screwed :( My heart goes out for them.

Well, they voted for their government, and they knew what would happen. My heart goes out to the innocent Israelis killed by all of those suicide bombings, not the ones who willfully allow it to happen.

[lapis]

The Hamas should rewrite their outdated charter, it echoes the militant attitude of the two Intifadas and some of the passages contain war rhetoric that do not suit a faction that's supposed to lead the Palestinian people. Times have changed, being part of a democratic government means that certain concessions are inescapable, like recognising the existence of the bigger neighbour. It's a formality and not worthy of ruling out the faction as a partner in negotiations, Turkey has always refused to recognise the existence of EU member Cyprus and yet there have been numerous talks about their possible EU membership, but it's a sign of good will at the very least.

They should also do everything they can to get their armed wing to release Shalit as soon as possible, there is little to be gained from holding him any longer and the Palestinian children in Israeli prisons will unfortunately have to rely on the kindness of the IDF and the IPS until they're released. The Israelis will hopefully release the Hamas MPs some time after Shalit's return, their capture had been planned a few weeks before Shalit was kidnapped so this move is uncertain but it's the best Haniya can hope for. He should also reinstate the hudna, without a time limit.

Fatah and Hamas also really need to quit their internal strife, the latest agreement was a step in the right direction but not enough by far. In the best case the current Hamas administration resigns to form a "National" Unity cabinet with the Fatah. Abbas has rejected this in the past but I hope he realises that he needs to cooperate with the Hamas for the sake of his people. The Hamas must then integrate their military wing into the security forces of the PA since it's current members are mostly tied to Fatah. They also need to compensate the loss of foreign financial aid, I doubt that the Iranians are willing to cough up the 110 million dollars the PA needs every month to pay it's employees so they should turn to the EU, and if that doesn't work to individual member states like France or Germany that aren't tightly tied to the leash of the US. Maybe Russia would be willing to send some aid, anything will do. They should also crack down on the Islamic Jihad to get more international support, and simply because they cannot afford to tolerate more paramilitary attacks on Israeli soil.

In the end the Israelis will probably always refuse to deal with Hamas even if they recognise Israel and refrain from terror for years, they want a powerless puppet like Abbas who stands on the sidelines and keeps up the farce of a somewhat equal relationship while they unilaterally redraw the borders from before the Six-Day War. Assassinations of Hamas members will continue to occur no matter how long a one-sided truce remains in place, but for now their people benefit the most if they keep up the public order in the territories together with the Fatah. While the Israeli government has the unconditional backing of the US no amount of foreign or domestic pressure will get them to start respecting international treaties, resolutions and conventions, and although I think it's noble of the Palestinian militants to not just bend over and take it in the ass like the Tibetans did before them they need to realise that refraining from violence will probably lead to a more reasonable status-quo than fueling the conflict.

[MortifiedPenguins]

They have to choices.

1. Make a propistion to the UN for peace and a state.

or

2. Continue and increase thier war untill they can force themselves a state.
But that won't be accomplished till the US stops funding the Isreali Government.

[Nirvana563]

Palestine 4 Life.

[Dragon-Smaug]

At 7/8/06 12:02 PM, lapis wrote: It's a formality and not worthy of ruling out the faction as a partner in negotiations, Turkey has always refused to recognise the existence of EU member Cyprus and yet there have been numerous talks about their possible EU membership, but it's a sign of good will at the very least.

I daresay its more than a formality. Hamas believed it when they wrote that they denied Israel’s right to exist, and the terrorists of Hamas still believe. If they do not beleive it, they should change it. If they don't change it, well, how have they proven that they've changed?

At 7/8/06 02:02 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote: 1. Make a propistion to the UN for peace and a state.

The UN can’t give them peace, because the UN can’t stop the terrorists.
The UN can’t give them a state, because its not the UN’s land.

2. Continue and increase thier war untill they can force themselves a state.
But that won't be accomplished till the US stops funding the Isreali Government.

They can’t force themselves into a state. Well fine, I guess that’s how lotsa states get made, but that’s not what the terrorists are trying to do anyway (they are trying to destroy Israel). Israel would be happy to let them have a state if they were able to ensure that Israel was not going to be attacked. You remember what happened when a truce was mostly upheld? Israel pulled out of Gaza. You remember why Israel sent troops back in? Only after one was kidnapped and two were killed.

[drDAK]

At 7/5/06 06:24 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: What should they do?

1. Return all Israeli hostages.
2. Have massive recall elections.
3. Vote for a secular government.
4. Have that government say: "We recognize Israel's inherent right to exist and will commit ourselves to peace. To that end, we will withdraw from the West Bank."

Well yeah, and vice versa... Israel accepts their right to exist and give them a part of the land to settle in, you know, a place they can call a homeland.

That is if you even are a gunny.

[Dragon-Smaug]

At 7/8/06 03:06 PM, drDAK wrote: Well yeah, and vice versa... Israel accepts their right to exist and give them a part of the land to settle in, you know, a place they can call a homeland.

Israel does accept their right to exist.
Israel never stopped them from settling in the territories.

[PV2White]

Screw the paletinians, Isreal even gave Gaza back to them as a sign of good faith then what happens? the stupid HAMAS wackos keep blowing sh*t up , CIVLIAN things by the way, so now isreal is marching in to take Gaza back.

Sounds kinda like what happened when Isreal first started huh? forget those palestinians, nothing has came from them except senseless voilence against others for being different, sounds like a bunch of middle eastern skinheads to me, i say spray em'down with tank fire.

[HighlyIllogical]

Israel has said, essentially:

1. We'll make concessions for peace (and they did!)
2. We'll defend ourselves if you don't make peace overtures.
3. If you attack us, we will kill you.
4. If you harm us at ALL, or ANY ISRAELI, WE WILL KILL YOU.

And this is logical. However, Israel needs to make it clear that they don't want to harm anyone, that they want their soldier back and to stop quassam firing.