Federal Income Tax = Illegal?

[Nylo]

http://www.apple.com..domtofacism/trailer/

A hype movie on the element that there's no law requiring any American citizen to pay taxes out of his or her income to the Federal government; in fact the surpreme court has ruled it against the law. So why is Tax Evasion such a high-profile crime?

I'm a moderate myself, though this one looks somewhat interesting.

[xXDathDalerXx]

well this is something that goes back to the days of kings an queens...nobels want money,but they don't want to work for it...so guess what :)

[FightingForFreedom]

Ok. If there isn't a law that forces Americans to pay a Federal Income Tax than there should be! No government on Earth can exist without taxes. As willing as I personally am to jump on the OUR GOVERNMENT IS EVIL wagon, this time I can't. Look don't be decieved - this movie is trying to say that our government oppresses us because they tax us.

You don't want to pay taxes?

Say good bye to Welfare.
Say good bye to free Public Education.
Say good bye to Firefighters, our Police, and the Military.

This movie operates on the premise that our government is unjustly taxing us and then slickly works in the issue of government surveylance and police brutallity. It's a tricky little way to associate the civil liberties debacle with a government loophole and nothing more.

[RedScorpion]

At 7/4/06 10:01 PM, FightingForFreedom wrote: It's a tricky little way to associate the civil liberties debacle with a government loophole and nothing more.

Indeed. I don't really understand why they've taken this position that 'the government is evil because of taxes [and no written law] thing'. Taxation has existed from the earliest civilizations on earth, and has supported the many united goals and necessities that the people desire. Things like roads, public education, electricity, public services (including emergency response), the military, law and regulation, water treatment, and a whole bunch of other things.

The only reason I can think of (at the moment) for not having a written law ordering the taxation of it's people, is because of the way our government and the situations the country undergoes is always changing. If we were to set in stone a legislation describing the exact amount of taxes each person will pay, then it could not adapt to changing circumstances that all nations must judge upon. No written piece of paper can judge singularly the desperation or prosperance of it's people, and that is one reason why we have representatives to oversee what is needed and what can be done to help. Some people are exempt from taxation, simply because they would be too poor to support themselves otherwise. And some people are taxed higher, because even with this higher percent gone, they have a large amount of wealth still.

The nation must adapt to the circumstances and situation that it is carried in, and taxes must also change according to the needs of the nation. It would be foolish to charge the same amount of taxes in a full-scale global war, as if you would in peacetime. Our representatives and leaders are there to interpret and guide the nation to prosperity, and ensure that not only the best is happening for the nation, but also for it's people. For the people make the nation...

Some tax attorney guy on the video - "There is no constitutional basis on the taxes for the wages on Americans living and working in the fifty states of unity. Period. End of argument."

Right... we'll be cutting off your electricity now. :-P

Tying the whole tax thing into the civil liberties issue is just an underhanded way of trying to validate their argument.

[rainmaker]

Hmm...
I wonder why it's ruled unjust when everybody knows it's a necessary evil.

[xXDathDalerXx]

what the documentary is talking about is income tax...not sales tax,or property tax or nay other tax,only income tax. which is basically getting taxed for working (sounds stupid huh??) although there is no law that states you must pay income tax (even the w40 form says income tax is voluntary) i doubt you will get away without doing jail time if you go around saying so,a lot of people don't file income tax in the US or here where I live. these are usualy self employed people...according to the IRS you have to pay income tax for mowing peoples lawns,how fucked up is that eh??

i can kind of see their point in a way,our money is mishandled...the government should be regulated, theres a lot of things wrong with the government,but nobody does anything

[FightingForFreedom]

At 7/5/06 12:16 AM, -Rainmaker- wrote: Hmm...
I wonder why it's ruled unjust when everybody knows it's a necessary evil.

I actually seen any credible documents or court rulings saying that Federal Income Taxes are illegal.

[xXDathDalerXx]

At 7/4/06 11:52 PM, RedScorpion wrote: The only reason I can think of (at the moment) for not having a written law ordering the taxation of it's people, is because of the way our government and the situations the country undergoes is always changing. If we were to set in stone a legislation describing the exact amount of taxes each person will pay, then it could not adapt to changing circumstances that all nations must judge upon.

actually the law was never signed but it was written,back in god knows when time...it was supposed to be the 16th amendment i believe,or 13th

No written piece of paper can judge singularly the desperation or prosperance of it's people

what exactly do you mean by that??

[FightingForFreedom]

At 7/5/06 12:22 AM, xXDathDalerXx wrote: what the documentary is talking about is income tax...not sales tax,or property tax or nay other tax,only income tax. which is basically getting taxed for working (sounds stupid huh??)

Uh, no, I don't think it's stupid to pay taxes on wages at all. First of all, it was the workings of our government that got the job in the first place. Look - the road you use to get to your occupation is paid for by the government, the regulation of the company that hires you is done by the government, the money that you earn is protected by the government, your humane working conditions are mantained by the government, and you're life while working is safeguarded by the government. Plus, if you own a small business, all of your purchases are subsidized 30% by the government.

If you believe being taxed on income is stupid, then why are you ok with sales tax, luxury tax, property tax, and other such things?

i can kind of see their point in a way,our money is mishandled...the government should be regulated,

How is money mishandled and what isnt regulated that should be? That wasn't even their point.

theres a lot of things wrong with the government,but nobody does anything

You fell for their trick. Tell me what a national ID card, goverment surveilance, implanted microchips, and federal income tax have to with each other.

[RedScorpion]

At 7/5/06 12:28 AM, xXDathDalerXx wrote:

No written piece of paper can judge singularly the desperation or prosperance of it's people

what exactly do you mean by that??

It means that humans are the only ones capable of truly assessing a situation. A piece of paper dictating guidelines and codes of conduct is important, but just as it was written by a human, it cannot entirely convey the feeling and understanding that it was written with.

Basically, words can only carry so much meaning, before it has to be interpreted by [qualified] individuals. It's part of the reason why we have a supreme court (for an analogy of sorts).

Qualified being our representatives and leaders - the ones we elected and trust to care for our nation.

Just as if a law was written saying - 'Raise taxes from 20% to 25% during severe wartime', then what would consistute 'severe'?

A law cannot be written with such ambigiouty.
And so it is left to our current leaders to assess what is best for the current situation. (please don't make me write examples for this line. ^^; )

[Nylo]

At 7/5/06 12:22 AM, xXDathDalerXx wrote: what the documentary is talking about is income tax...not sales tax,or property tax or nay other tax,only income tax. which is basically getting taxed for working (sounds stupid huh??)

DathDaler's got it. The issue isn't with taxes themselves, but souly income Tax. You've worked for all that money, you sold your labor to your employer.

For me, personally, I wouldn't have issues with the Income Tax system if Congress/Treasury only printed out what they needed. I'm not fine being taxed cuz Dems and Reps can't keep the pork out of legislation.

[wesdood]

if more people knew about this, i highly doubt they would do anything about it.

[FightingForFreedom]

At 7/5/06 01:48 AM, Nylo wrote: DathDaler's got it. The issue isn't with taxes themselves, but souly income Tax. You've worked for all that money, you sold your labor to your employer.

Oh please, unless you make over $100,000 dollars a year income tax is only 10-20% and you can file a tax return to get a fair amount of that back. If you make over $100,000 dollars a year than your not really in financial problems so taxation on that income isnt that bad. Look if the government didnt tax you on incone they would have to raise sales tax, property tax, luxury tax and probably come up with a buch of new bullshit taxes to compensate. Its just a matter of what source you pay it from really.

For me, personally, I wouldn't have issues with the Income Tax system if Congress/Treasury only printed out what they needed.

You realize that the treasury can't just print money for itself to use if it runs out. It doesnt work like that.

I'm not fine being taxed cuz Dems and Reps can't keep the pork out of legislation.

Then elect better representatives and vote for more progressive policy - you cant just refuse to pay taxes because you dont like where the money is going. Society depends upon some people doing things they dont want to so that everyone can be happy.

[xXDathDalerXx]

At 7/5/06 02:38 AM, FightingForFreedom wrote:

At 7/5/06 01:48 AM, Nylo wrote: DathDaler's got it. The issue isn't with taxes themselves, but souly income Tax. You've worked for all that money, you sold your labor to your employer.

Oh please, unless you make over $100,000 dollars a year income tax is only 10-20% and you can file a tax return to get a fair amount of that back. If you make over $100,000 dollars a year than your not really in financial problems so taxation on that income isnt that bad. Look if the government didnt tax you on incone they would have to raise sales tax, property tax, luxury tax and probably come up with a buch of new bullshit taxes to compensate. Its just a matter of what source you pay it from really.

no,i do believe you're wrong here...the government will only give you money when they have taxed you too much,what did you think that the government was going to actually give you free cash?? haha...they're returning the too much money they took from your wage,that's what

& I'de like to know who these paople that make over 100K a year are...I barely made 40K & I have no kids no home,payed no rent & waisted very little on food,I made maybe $700 average a week. if I got lucky 8 or 9 hundred (without income tax deduction)

& the government has enough money to waste on themselves,if government officials cut down on their cruise trips,lexus cars,private planes etc etc we wouldn't have to take such a deep hit in our pockets,not to mention all the tax breaks the rich people & companies get...all those tax breaks get passed down to us,the lower & middle class citizens

[xXDathDalerXx]

At 7/5/06 02:38 AM, FightingForFreedom wrote: Then elect better representatives and vote for more progressive policy - you cant just refuse to pay taxes because you dont like where the money is going. Society depends upon some people doing things they dont want to so that everyone can be happy.

i find voting useless...1 vote won't change the world,& even so no matter who you elect nothing's going to change...take a look at what your government is spending your money on

http://www.federalbudget.com/chart.gif

woooo that's a lot of money in a lot of wrong places,not to mention all the money that gets carpeted into their pockets

[FightingForFreedom]

At 7/5/06 03:21 AM, xXDathDalerXx wrote: no,i do believe you're wrong here...the government will only give you money when they have taxed you too much,what did you think that the government was going to actually give you free cash?? haha...they're returning the too much money they took from your wage,that's what

Ok, so if they are returning the too much money they took away, then aren't you and the government square after you file the tax return?

& I'de like to know who these paople that make over 100K a year are...I barely made 40K & I have no kids no home,payed no rent & waisted very little on food,I made maybe $700 average a week. if I got lucky 8 or 9 hundred (without income tax deduction)

Theres millions of them. 10 million to be exact (Source). In any case those people are taxed more anyway so its really not unfair to anyone.

& the government has enough money to waste on themselves,if government officials cut down on their cruise trips,lexus cars,private planes etc etc we wouldn't have to take such a deep hit in our pockets,not to mention all the tax breaks the rich people & companies get...all those tax breaks get passed down to us,the lower & middle class citizens

Again, you're confusing bad fiscal policy with unjust taxation, Its not wrong for them to tax you on your income. It IS wrong for them to irresponsibly manage money. See the difference? Fight bad policy not taxation in general.

[xXDathDalerXx]

:Again, you're confusing bad fiscal policy with unjust taxation, Its not wrong for them to tax you on your income. It IS wrong for them to irresponsibly manage money. See the difference? Fight bad policy not taxation in general.

the only way to escape from their clutches is to not pay any income tax at all

[Gunter45]

At 7/5/06 12:22 AM, FightingForFreedom wrote: I actually seen any credible documents or court rulings saying that Federal Income Taxes are illegal.

How about the fact that the income tax Ammendment was never fully ratified?

[FightingForFreedom]

At 7/5/06 04:18 AM, Gunter45 wrote:

At 7/5/06 12:22 AM, FightingForFreedom wrote: I actually seen any credible documents or court rulings saying that Federal Income Taxes are illegal.

How about the fact that the income tax Ammendment was never fully ratified?

Assuming that is true, how does that make income taxing illegal. To be illegal means that there is a law against it such as illegal drugs or illegal prositution. In this case we would assume its legal because there is no law against it.

There is no law making sex legal but noone would come out and call sex illegal.

[xXDathDalerXx]

At 7/5/06 06:35 AM, FightingForFreedom wrote: There is no law making sex legal but noone would come out and call sex illegal.

actually there is...& anal sex is illegal in a lot of states,bestiallity is also illegal in some states. & you people have got it all mixed up,what's in question here is a federal state tax,which they are not entitled to...state income tax has already been passed in a few states & it's totally legal,but not a nation-wide federal tax which is what you file on your tax return

hmmm i didn't see all this other stuff you wrote before:

Uh, no, I don't think it's stupid to pay taxes on wages at all.

you don't??...you're already paying a state income tax depending on where you live,add to that now sales tax & corporate taxes that get passed down to us

First of all, it was the workings of our government that got the job in the first place. Look - the road you use to get to your occupation is paid for by the government

hahaha you are so confused...OK the government is paying me to learn,but who is paying the government ;)

If you believe being taxed on income is stupid, then why are you ok with sales tax, luxury tax, property tax, and other such things?

i never said i was ok with all taxes,property tax for example i don't agree on...i'de have no problem paying taxes if it were used correctly,to fix our roads,fix our schools,law enforcement,medical care etc etc not to line their pockets with

How is money mishandled and what isnt regulated that should be? That wasn't even their point.

no,that is my point...the government is unregulated,our government has run amuck

You fell for their trick. Tell me what a national ID card, goverment surveilance, implanted microchips, and federal income tax have to with each other.

like said above,we're not talking solely about the movie anymore...in fact i agree with the surveilance & microchips & fingerprinting,a national database would help stop many crimes

Ok, so if they are returning the too much money they took away, then aren't you and the government square after you file the tax return?

nope,because you are already paying taxes 3 fold depending on where you live...state tax,sales tax & corporate tax. i didn't even mention off side taxes like gifts
if you've ever eaten at burger king or mc donalds take a look at your bill when you eat in & when you eat take out. notice a price difference?? they taxes you for eating in...know why?? that's right!! you're paying for part of that establishment

[Memorize]

I don't mind paying taxes. But considering the government spends billions of dollars on useless crap...

[FightingForFreedom]

At 7/5/06 01:28 PM, AccessCode wrote: I don't mind paying taxes. But considering the government spends billions of dollars on useless crap...

At 7/5/06 01:48 AM, Nylo wrote: For me, personally, I wouldn't have issues with the Income Tax system if Congress/Treasury only printed out what they needed. I'm not fine being taxed cuz Dems and Reps can't keep the pork out of legislation.

At 7/5/06 03:21 AM, xXDathDalerXx wrote: the government has enough money to waste on themselves,if government officials cut down on their cruise trips,lexus cars,private planes etc etc we wouldn't have to take such a deep hit in our pockets,not to mention all the tax breaks the rich people & companies get...all those tax breaks get passed down to us,the lower & middle class citizens

At 7/5/06 03:33 AM, xXDathDalerXx wrote: woooo that's a lot of money in a lot of wrong places,not to mention all the money that gets carpeted into their pockets

At 7/5/06 01:21 PM, xXDathDalerXx wrote: i'de have no problem paying taxes if it were used correctly,to fix our roads,fix our schools,law enforcement,medical care etc etc not to line their pockets with

Look, you believe that the government irresponsibly handles your tax dollars - which is a valid and justified opinion. However, just because the government spends poorly doesn't mean that the whole tax system should be abandoned.

I know that you feel cheated out of your money and that is understandable, but you cannot claim that taxation at all is unjust. Let me put this nicely - The belief that we should not pay taxes AT ALL, because a few people fuck around with our money, is insane.

[xXDathDalerXx]

i'm not saying we shouldn't pay any taxes lol...just not income tax,i worked hard for my money,i should have the option to choose like the w40 form says,but if you don't pay it you go to jail

there's a bill trying to be passed that will impose a nationwide tax & would eliminate taxes on our wages...which is what we the poor people need right now

[FightingForFreedom]

At 7/5/06 01:51 PM, xXDathDalerXx wrote: i'm not saying we shouldn't pay any taxes lol...just not income tax,i worked hard for my money,i should have the option to choose like the w40 form says,but if you don't pay it you go to jail

Don't you get it? If you don't pay income tax you'll just have to pay more of other taxes to compensate. Whatever you do, you're still obligated to contribute the same amount of money to society. Don't give me that "I worked hard for my money" bullshit because you pay sales tax using money you "worked hard" for and you pay property tax with the money you "worked hard for". In fact you pay every tax with income money dont you?

In any case, everyone works or has worked hard for their money so get off your fucking crucifix.

there's a bill trying to be passed that will impose a nationwide tax & would eliminate taxes on our wages...which is what we the poor people need right now

You are not poor! I bet you that you have a full stomach, some nice clothes, and clean apartment, all of your teeth, and no infectious diseases. Get the fuck over yourself, you make 40,000 a year, you said it yourself. Thats actually more than the average American wage! Go to fucking Bolivia, or China, or India. Most people there wont make in their life what you made last month.

And don't you make this a fucking class war arguement, I'm not the rich elitus and you aren't the poor masses, ok. Theres not gonna be some glorious proletarian revolution over income tax.

[Hamslice]

It was considered illegal in the early 20th century.

[xXDathDalerXx]

At 7/5/06 02:01 PM, FightingForFreedom wrote: angry rant

you'de be surprised what the government considers poor...i am poor by government standards,PS i don't live in the US,& no i don't make 40K anymore

& as for your argument on being taxed anyway at least it will be a tax i choose to pay,not an obligated tax imposed on me automatically deducted from my wage...i'll pay those taxes on the commodoties i use or buy,that's a big difference

[xXDathDalerXx]

At 7/5/06 02:03 PM, Hamslice wrote: It was considered illegal in the early 20th century.

that's what the 16th amendment was supposed to be for

U.S. Constitution: Sixteenth Amendment

Sixteenth Amendment - Income Tax

Amendment Text | Annotations

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

it was never passed

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 7/5/06 03:02 PM, xXDathDalerXx wrote:

At 7/5/06 02:03 PM, Hamslice wrote:

it was never passed

what the fuck are you talking about.

The 16th ammendment was passed.

And likewise for everyone else, thats why the government has the legality to do that.

[xXDathDalerXx]

At 7/5/06 03:24 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

At 7/5/06 03:02 PM, xXDathDalerXx wrote:

At 7/5/06 02:03 PM, Hamslice wrote:

it was never passed

what the fuck are you talking about.

The 16th ammendment was passed.

And likewise for everyone else, thats why the government has the legality to do that.

The amendment was ratified by 38 states in all: Alabama on August 10, 1909, Kentucky on February 8, 1910, South Carolina on February 19, Illinois on March 1, Mississippi on March 7, Oklahoma on March 10, Maryland on April 8, Georgia on August 3, Texas on August 16, Ohio on January 19, 1911, Idaho on January 20, Oregon on January 23, Washington on January 26, Indiana and Montana on January 30, California and Nevada on January 31, South Dakota on February 3, Nebraska on February 9, North Carolina on February 11, Colorado on February 15, North Dakota on February 17, Kansas on February 18, Michigan on February 23, Iowa on February 24, Missouri on March 16, Maine on March 31, Tennessee on April 7, Arkansas on April 22, Wisconsin on May 26, New York on July 12, Arizona on April 6, 1912, Minnesota on June 11, Louisiana on June 28, West Virginia on January 31, 1913, New Mexico on February 3 (the 36th state to ratify), Massachusetts on March 4, and New Hampshire on March 7. Arizona and New Hampshire ratified after an earlier rejection. Ratification was rejected by Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Utah.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 7/5/06 03:34 PM, xXDathDalerXx wrote:

At 7/5/06 03:24 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

At 7/5/06 03:02 PM, xXDathDalerXx wrote:

At 7/5/06 02:03 PM, Hamslice wrote:

The amendment was ratified by 38 states in all:

Your point.