Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

*All of Khuskan's ideas*

I disagree with the previous discussion.

I belive that if NG could specialise in shorter loops and sound effects, the AP could grow and become a HUGHE library for flash artists, not only from NG, but all over the internet. And that would most likley be very good PR for NG.

Why I don´t belive in the AP going "Music first" is the fact that there already ARE so many music sites, that are good. Of course, noone said NG can´t beat them, there are plenty of resources to do so, but then they would most likley have to let go some of the flash portal.
I belive its a matter of not having that much resources as they want. There are millions of brillliant ideas, but do remember that NG´s income is primarily from ads on the site, and i would ass-ume (lol tank) that they sell the ads with the flash portal.
That´s why this is majorly a flash site (someone plz tell me im wrong if i am...) and will stay that way, at least until the time changes and the market with it.

So, what my real point here is, that if NG would choose to go "general music first" with the AP, then there would become a gap between the AP and the FP that would be even greater than it is today. Wich is a shame, because both flash and audio artists would benefit from having a closer collaboration with eachother, and in the end, Newgrounds.com would become even greater due to having better "originaly NG" flashes, with great audio.

Anyone disagree with me?

Not at all.So,if i get the point,the thing to do is to make the AP AND the FP become one great portal,with all the stuffs from both,right?

In response to Rucklo, I strongly disagre.

Just because there are other music sites does NOT mean that Newgrounds should immediately begin providing loops, seeing as there are probobly just as many databases for loops as there are for full compositions. Newgrounds is seated in a position where the right improvements could easilly launch it over other music AND loop portals, creating even greater PR for wider audiences. Moving to just loops would be a waste.

One thing I can say, is that if seperation were at all a reality, then I'd be game for loops and music sections.

Well, R00ts, im not saying that i belive there shouldnt be any full songs around. But i do belive that it should be restricted one way or another. Perhaps you should have to deserve putting full songs on the portal, by making loops or something. In that case, the longer songs would actually be of at least SOME quality...

Or perhaps when (if) we get a system with awards, i belive most of the awards should be based on loops, meaning full long songs would have a really difficult time getting through, unless theyre actually really good.

Still I belive the best way to go to BEGIN with is to focus on loops and sound effects.
We´ll see what the administrators have in mind. Would be fun to get some kind of commentary, a vauge point in any direction, so we slave users can keep spawning ideas and keep dreaming lol (tank). >:(

I h8 to disagree with my alt but i like full songs better for themes and wut not loops r ok for a short flash but if its somthing big u want to hear a full song .

Rucklo poses an interesting point, but I believe hindering the songs on the audio portal by any means would upset the community, and most would immediately strongly oppose the changes. Now hindering can mean multiple things, both hurting what we already have and leaving the songs aside for loops in the next long awaited update hurt the majority of the AP's feelings, and we don't want that, do we Rucklo?

BTWLOLH4X!

The AP should never specialise just for loops. Thats what it tried to do when it first opened, and it failed. The chances of a flash artist actually using your music is pretty low unless you're -really- well known. It would be eaisier to get popular among other audio artists that than it would be to get popular with flash artists.

Also, I personally and a lot of other musicians here just don't make loops. Most musicians on the portal make full tracks, so what, pray, would be the point of downgrading the website into something that dosn't currently support, and most of the AP users don't use it for anyway.

Well, if there would be awards allmost only for loops, then there really wouldnt be that big of a difference from how it is now, would it? There are no worhty awards as it is today, and if there would be a system of awards for loops, this would mean that the loops on the site most likley would increase.

However, noone would stop you from making full songs, i shall assume the same filesize limit would stay.

These are only suggestions, and there are pro´s and cons. But, like I said in an earlier post, first thing NG administrators must decide is WHAT DO WE (admins) WANT WITH THIS PORTAL thatissofullofoppurtunitiesandsoon..... ???

A loop-friendly system would help out the flash artists ALOT, and bring flash+audioartists closer together, no doubt. This would probably mean less work for the admins too.

A full music-style page would get a great responce immideatley, due to the already large fan base NG have. It could give Newgrounds.com alot of new advertising partners, like online record companies, new (pro) artist album releases and so on. However, maintanence would requrie more work from the admins, since they would have to compete with already established music pages with great system such as garageband, mixposure and so on.

Or, perhaps there really wont be any energy put in the AP at all, but maybe some new graphic, and a basic award or so... :(
But, I shall assume that when the longed for revamp comes, it will be done good. We´ll see...

At 7/7/06 09:48 AM, Rucklo wrote: It could give Newgrounds.com alot of new advertising partners, like online record companies, new (pro) artist album releases and so on.

In other words a load of companies that have no interest in loops whatsoever.

Nobody purely makes loops anymore, and this is hardly a supply depot for the flash, no matter what its -supposed- to be. It's not a matter of making music for it to be used in flash, thats just a bonus that if a flash artist wants to use your music they can.

Loops are generally unrewarding. The chance of getting a loop in a flash is still very low, if not lower than getting an awesome full track in. Due to general increase of speed of internet connections, flash artists no longer fear large filesizes so they're more than happy to have files from 3 to 5 mb with several full music tracks in them.

Loops don't make you famous, arn't generally satisfying to make as so little work is involved, and you cant really put them on your iPod and listen to them occasionally, because they're far to short.

Given these points there is very little reason to expand the ability for loop support on NG. It is more than sufficient as it is, and they should be handled just like any other track on the portal.

Loops have been and gone, and although the portal still caters for them, they have little real benifits anymore.

now here's an idea and before you say it would take too much work just hear it out 'cause i made a solution to the hard work.

make two main categories. one for loops entitled "loops", and one for full songs entitled "songs". 'twould be a massive work load to have somebody go through the entire audio portal and pick what's what. so here's my solution. the author get's to choose from his own audio page what submission is what, either loop or song. this way we can categorize our own submissions and no ng staff would havta worry about that load of work that would take months if not years to comeplete.

if there are any older tunes that are on the audio portal that remain undecided, and therefore uncategorized, for over three months, then they shall be deleted from the audio portal. this saves bandwidth and server load and space.

i figure the genres can stay but underneath the main category idea. so if you click loops then you would get sent to the page of loop genres and vice versa for the song genres. makin' it easier to hear what kind of submissions you are lookin' for. that way flash authors can find the audio that they actualy want instead of having it created for 'em or lookin' elsewhere since searchin' through the audio portal now is like tredgin' through mud that's waist deep.

anybody else think that this is a nice idea and think it's feaseable?

Its a great idea, mhb, and with "sub-genres" you could be able to put your submissions in for example main; "loop" sub; "emotions-genre" for example.

What i mainly mean in the recent discussion is that loops should be more profitable than full songs, and this is based on the point of view i imagine the admins would have, at least thats the first point with the AP, to be a tool for flash authors. I think thats a great idea, and that it should be evolved, even though the AP have grown into something else. Awarding loops mainly would most likley result in more loops. Plopp.

WE NEED A DAMN IDM GENRE.
Seriously. That keeps some of us from posting to Miscellaneous where no one gets attention at all.

At 7/7/06 02:58 PM, Rucklo wrote: Its a great idea, mhb, and with "sub-genres" you could be able to put your submissions in for example main; "loop" sub; "emotions-genre" for example.

What i mainly mean in the recent discussion is that loops should be more profitable than full songs, and this is based on the point of view i imagine the admins would have, at least thats the first point with the AP, to be a tool for flash authors. I think thats a great idea, and that it should be evolved, even though the AP have grown into something else. Awarding loops mainly would most likley result in more loops. Plopp.

i completely agree that the audio portal's main focus should still be based on loops for the flash authors but man, rucklo, i know you're a musician and i know that deep down inside you feel the same way that we all do. makin' loops is not makin' music. it's makin' a beat. if i wanted to focus on makin' loops i'd become a producer for rap artists so i could get paid fo doin' nothin' makin' a loop is like makin' toast, you put in the raw materials, hit a few buttons, and it's done in a few minutes. there is no satisfaction in bein' known for your "fuckin' amazing loop makin' skillz!!!" therefore if loops were made the main priority and were given awards and full songs weren't, i think a lot of musicians on this site would be gripin' and complainin' about that. everybody that has somethin' submitted to this site deserves a fair chance at an award for their work. just think about how many tunes, loops, and animations could have been capitalized upon instead of given to newgrounds for free just to make the site better. alot of authors, both flash and audio, could be gettin' paid for makin' their stuff. but we chose to make newgrounds better by puttin' it on here for free. awards should be given out equally to all mediums of submissions, not just flash and audio loops.

At 7/7/06 03:09 PM, mhb wrote: i completely agree that the audio portal's main focus should still be based on loops for the flash authors but man, rucklo, i know you're a musician and i know that deep down inside you feel the same way that we all do. makin' loops is not makin' music. it's makin' a beat.

I definitley feel the same about that, considering i dont make loops on a daily basis. As the discussion goes now, its a question if the admins should take the AP for what it has become and make a full music porta of it (pros and cons discussed in a couple of previous posts), or if the best thing would be to try "control" the revamp into a more loop-friendly environment.

Making loops is a GREAT way for musicians to practise, btw. Or just extract a loop out of a full song, then TADAAAA - a loop and a full song.
Perhaps there should be an option, when you submit a song, so that you could submit a full song with a loop from the same song "attached" to the full song?!

therefore if loops were made the main priority and were given awards and full songs weren't, i think a lot of musicians on this site would be gripin' and complainin' about that. awards should be given out equally to all mediums of submissions, not just flash and audio loops.

Yeah, agreed. I belive many ppl might actually leave NG alltogether, but i personally still think it´s the right time to focus, and the AP is (should be) there for the flashes. However, it WOULD be stupid of NG to ignore what acutally have become of the AP. The best thing would of course be to find some mix i guess...
I belive in a balance between full songs/loops, but to begin with, i think loops (and perhaps sound FX?) should get more attention indeed, so there will be more of that stuff.
The ideas i´ve presented earlier is to make it more attractive making loops tho, in favour for the flash artists. Sure, many ppl would be dissapointed if loops/short songs would become prio #1 (for real) for the AP, but i think it would attract many ppl making cool loops as well. Not mentioning that the AP could indeed get reckognition and become famous for its nich throughout the interweb...
Before any award system is made, i assume the votingsystem should be revamped altogether. The system will control what awards are possible and fair.

I belive that it is to assume that NG in many ways will copy the system from the flash portal and make slight adjustements towards audio is being submitted, not flash... this i base on the fact that major work was put in that system, and it would be easier and more profitable to re-use as much as possible. Why change a winning concept? :)

Do note many of these things I discuss are just me assuming alot of things, I assume that the NG staff wants to keep the AP as a tool for flash artists and so on. All of the discussion is therefore based on assumptions.

At 7/7/06 03:46 PM, Rucklo wrote: Perhaps there should be an option, when you submit a song, so that you could submit a full song with a loop from the same song "attached" to the full song?!

There arn't enough loops to make a feature like that worthwhile, and simply because a feature is there dosn't mean that authors will be encouraged to use it.

Besides, why should loops be treated differently to any other track on the AP?

At 7/7/06 04:13 PM, Khuskan wrote:

At 7/7/06 03:46 PM, Rucklo wrote: Perhaps there should be an option, when you submit a song, so that you could submit a full song with a loop from the same song "attached" to the full song?!

There arn't enough loops to make a feature like that worthwhile, and simply because a feature is there dosn't mean that authors will be encouraged to use it.

Besides, why should loops be treated differently to any other track on the AP?

Like I mentioned, this is all depending on what the admins would want with the AP. If they want it to contain more loops, that was simply a suggestion. And to make a feature like that worthy, there could be awards to controll them in that direction.

I know personally that I would take advantage of such a feature.

After reading through Rucklos ideas, I've reached a middleground that hopefully will be a more upgrade-friendly system.

Instead of adding loads of new variables for each track, expand on the current search system. I propose that instead of just having search by track name/track author, the system goes much more in depth, using all the variables that currently (pointlessly) exist on tracks.

I propose the following features:

Searching by track length. For example <1 min and >2 min would eaisily seporate loops from full tracks.

Searching by vote score - though instead of searching by numbers, the search would be based off the average score of all audio submissions combined, so the average would probably lie around 2.20, where a good quality track would be that + 1 point, so 3.20. This should help flash artists sort the chaff from the wheat.

Searching by gold/platinum etc. This could also be used either in tandem or instead of the vote score system - although sometimes downloads arn't an accurate representation of quality, and if the problem where people can mass download their own tracks isn't adressed, then it is likely that people may spam their songs so they get included in the searches.

You see, the reason behind this is there are currently a lot of variables assinged to tracks that are never actually used, such as gold/platinums, and this could all be put to good use, both aiding flash animators (as the portal was designed for) by making it eaisier to find exactly the track they want, and aiding musicians by making those hard-earned platinums/golds actually worth something.

Also I forgot to add. The search system would actually require very little change to the actual submission forum. If we were do to something like add a bunch of new features like longer comments, etc, there wil be a bunch of 'redundent' tracks that all have that feature empty. However, editing the search feature to be more indepth would only mean that the search gets edited - the actual track system need not be edited at all (although of course there are still a lot of improvements that can be made)

I really hope the big boys are looking at this thread, because there are some awesome ideas here.

I have always been confused to why the Audio Portal dose not work the same way as the flash one... I mean judging whise there is way to meany crappy songs, also I just want to be able to delete some of my old crappy work! Jeez like any one wants to listen to I-Poo! WTF was I thinking?

At 7/8/06 05:18 AM, AngryStudent wrote: Jeez like any one wants to listen to I-Poo! WTF was I thinking?

Ahahah that made my morning, made me lol at least :D

sry off topic, but that was really funny X´D

OK>.< I did not know it was funny at all... I guess It was pretty damn random, and random=funny
I guess.

"IP logging to prevent users from mass downloading their own tracks" was the best idea I have heard yet, and I would like to add that the audio player(ParagonX9) on the main audio page should have saved preferences with cookies. (When I want the audio player to stay off, it will just start again next page load). This shouldn't interfere with listening to songs while browsing.

Excellent work though, I can't really complain.

All those changes sound good, but i'd be happy even with just these:

Blam/protect(To keep me from putting on every single thing that I make, POS or not, and to lower bandwidth costs, I guess.)

More clear genres(I used to think that classical rock meant the same thing as instrumental rock! Can you believe that?)

More space in the description area(Sometimes I want more than 90 characters!)

Edit-ability, being able to change the title, description, and/or genre selection of a song(I sometimes put stuff in the wrong category from time to time.)

More audio representation on the NG frontpage(All portals are created equal!!!)

umm...add more sub categories. Divide trance up a bit...as well as other categories, just to organize it a little better. As well as some self moderation power...so you can delete/ edit various things. This also would be useful if there was some easy way to switch categorys in case you submitted it wrong. MORE FRONT PAGE EXPOSURE. Even if that means just placing a top 5 daily/weekly submissions list, ON THE FRONT PAGE. I mean like newgrounds.com, not newgrounds.com/audio. Any front page exposure of any kind, would help recognition out, tons.
If people submit their own songs, for others to enjoy...and some jealous assholes come by and leave hurtful reviews just to spite you... you know something needs to be done. So I think any improvement in moderation, such as bans or warnings for alot more offensive reviews, would be an imrovement. Perhaps... place a "was this review helpful?" thingy at the bottom of each review. Then if enough people click the abusive link, it'll be flagged for moderators to inspect...thus helping increase the moderation. All the audio regulars and all the audio listeners pretty much, have integrity. So involving the listeners in any way, as well as giving them any power, is an improvement. Ok im a little wasted at tjhe moment...so ima leave it at that, before I start sounding like a retard.

g-R

I think the best change around here would be to have pole dancers in the middle of the screen stripping off and showing us their tits...

Minimum filesize (200kb?) to prevent people uploading pointless crap.

At 7/11/06 07:09 AM, Khuskan wrote: Minimum filesize (200kb?) to prevent people uploading pointless crap.

non-loop friendly... Also nothing would prevent ppl from uploading empty tracks that are 3 min long...

Best thing would probably be if the main audio portal got split up, in for example;

- Full songs
- Loopable songs
- (soundeffects???)

Then there could be different filesize limits there, i suppose... Perhaps slightly different rules for submitting even...

At 7/10/06 04:17 AM, g-rave wrote: ... place a "was this review helpful?" thingy at the bottom of each review. Then if enough people click the abusive link, it'll be flagged for moderators to inspect...thus helping increase the moderation.

I absolutely agree with this. I think it should be done.