Israel Moves into Gaza

[HighlyIllogical]

Ok, so, to retrieve a captured soldier, Israel's military moved into Gaza. Can you say: "International uproar?" But, imagine whatg they'd be saying if terrorists moved into Tel Aviv to "retrieve a captured terrorists?" The 'international community' would be happy.

[SouthAsian]

Israel invaded over 1 soldier.Israel appears to be a very warlike state,something that judaism condemns am I right?

[HighlyIllogical]

"invaded" to SAVE a life.

[Iamrecognized]

They are not all that happy with countries who really really want them dead. All those countries have pushed Isreal to and past the limit.

[seventy-one]

At 6/27/06 09:28 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Ok, so, to retrieve a captured soldier, Israel's military moved into Gaza. Can you say: "International uproar?" But, imagine whatg they'd be saying if terrorists moved into Tel Aviv to "retrieve a captured terrorists?" The 'international community' would be happy.

I think its the opposite.
If terrorists moved into Tel Aviv to recapture one of their own, it would be shunned by the international community, and people would keep saying, "Look at those Palestinians"l. I don't think this is causing an "international uproar", it seems that people support it. Then again, I could be wrong.

[lapis]

Olmert apparently has to prove he's hard on terrorism even though he has little experience commanding the armed forces. Even the US called for Israel to not send in the troops this early since this measure will only put more pressure on the negotiation process and the Egyptian mediation. It wouldn't even be that unreasonable for Israel to release the probably 300-500 (these plus these) Palestinian children in Israeli prisons - maybe a few of the women too, depending on the individual cases

The kidnapping was too provocative and it taints the recent agreement Fatah and Hamas had signed to reduce the quarreling between members of their factions, but there's not much else the Palestinians can do about Israeli Human Right violations like the fact that 794 out of the 8,238 Palestinians in Israeli jails are in "administrative detention " and that it depends on the benevolence of the IDF and the IPS whether or not they will receive a fair trial. They could probably write an angry letter just to enable Olmert to wipe his ass with it, or they could request aid from the international community so that they can write the angry letter for them, which would eventually result in the same scenario.

In this case kidnapping will have the same results as complaining, nothing to be exact, but at least the problems are in the international spotlight again I guess. The only way to end the horrible treatment of Palestinian citizens by the Israeli government would be by using the same means that helped South Africa end the apartheid, through international sanctions and divestment, and these are never going to be put in place if the problem is being forgotten.

At 6/27/06 09:28 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Ok, so, to retrieve a captured soldier, Israel's military moved into Gaza. Can you say: "International uproar?" But, imagine whatg they'd be saying if terrorists moved into Tel Aviv to "retrieve a captured terrorists?" The 'international community' would be happy.

Yes. They'd cheer, they'd dance, they'd light the fireworks. All this commotion is just part of one big plot with the final goal of bringing Israel down. Once again I'm amazed by your incredible perceptive skills.

[Demosthenez]

Wait, did you just make a comparison of IDF soldiers and their actions to "terrorist" Gaza extremists?

I thought that was too funny :P

[JakeHero]

What can be said? On one side there's the murderous Palestinians, on the other there's the bullies of Israel. Tough for me to side with one.

[Iamrecognized]

I side with Isreal on the grounds of not calling me "The Great Satan."

[Lidov]

You are looking at it the wrong way, the Hamas, the kasam launching ruling party at "Palastine" has kidnapped one of our soldiers. This is an awful event which should never occur again, so we warned the Hamas that bad things will happen unless they bring back the soldier. But unfortunately, the Hamas is stubborn and stupid, they didn't bring us our soldier back. Since kidnapped soldiers is something new, we want to show them that using it will have bad results so that it won't happen again.

The rulers of that area can stop this at any moment they like by simply bringing the soldier back. However, they would rather be big and powerful and keep the kidnapee to themselves dispite the troubles it is causing their people. Never the less, in a democracy the will of the people is almost always to be done, so if the people of Gaza will decide that it is not worthy keeping the soldier, the government will be under palastinian pressure to release the soldier. Don't forget that chosing a terror organization has its results, the palastinians know that, or should have known that.

Of course that it wasn't the best thing to do, there is no opperation ever that was made by a country which couldn't have been done in a better way, or could have been replaced by a better opperation. There are many ideas about how we should act in this situation, and apperantly Olmert thought that it was the best one. Since negotiation is immpossible, the only way we could act is by threatening and attacking, either way the responsability for this opperation and to its continuation is layed on the Hamas.

Anyway, it is not like we are invading to Gaza in order to conquer it again, just to get our soldier back. Once we got the soldier back, we will leave and start conquering bigger pieces of lands, like Syria, and start acting meanfully to them, since this is what we like to do.

[Iamrecognized]

Okay... but meanfully? Come on.

[HighlyIllogical]

The Palestinians launch missiles at innocent civillians and blow themselves up to kill civillians. The Israelis use targeted attacks against terrorists. Let's see. Moral equivalency? I think not.

[Iamrecognized]

Right, Isreal is not nearly as bad as Palestine. Palstine is "openly terrorist."

[HighlyIllogical]

And Israel is a democracy.

[lapis]

At 6/28/06 05:59 AM, Lidov wrote: Never the less, in a democracy the will of the people is almost always to be done, so if the people of Gaza will decide that it is not worthy keeping the soldier, the government will be under palastinian pressure to release the soldier. Don't forget that chosing a terror organization has its results, the palastinians know that, or should have known that.

First of all, a lot of Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were sick of the corruption that was rampant under Fatah rulership (link). What you can also see (Q17) is that 57.9% of the poll respondents supported the two-state solution, 55.1% - 60.7% with 95% certainty, assuming that the sample was representative. That's even higher than in earlier polls, so a majority of the Palestinians in fact does want to recognise Israel. They elected Hamas as the lesser of two evils but they don't control everything they did afterwards, including their persistence in not acknowledging Israel's existence, so you can't blame it on the people that easily. Besides, the Spanish and Italian governments also supported the war in Iraq while the majorities of their respective populations were strongly opposed.

Since negotiation is immpossible, the only way we could act is by threatening and attacking, either way the responsability for this opperation and to its continuation is layed on the Hamas.

Negotiations were hardly impossible. Prisoner exchanges happen all the time and to be honest, demanding that the Israeli authorities release incarcerated children isn't even that unreasonable. And Israel is guilty of similar practices, here: "Between December 1999 and January 2004, Israel held Lebanese prisoners in administrative detention as hostages for potential exchanges for Israelis taken prisoner or missing from the Lebanon War. Over the years Israel released these hostages, and the last of them were released in a prisoner exchange in January 2004."

Throwing away diplomacy as a solution happened far too early especially since foreign powers were intensely arbitrating. And both sides carry equal responsibility, don't forget that the armed wing of Hamas kept it's calm for 16 months until the Israeli Sea Corps decided to shell a random beach where a Palestinian family was having a picnic. There are hardly any "good" or "bad" guys among the armed factions/forces of both sides in this conflict.

Anyway, it is not like we are invading to Gaza in order to conquer it again, just to get our soldier back. Once we got the soldier back, we will leave and start conquering bigger pieces of lands, like Syria, and start acting meanfully to them, since this is what we like to do.

Aha! A confession! And I don't think "meanfully" was the word you were looking for, if I'm right in detecting sarcasm then "hatefully" would be a better alternative.

---

On a completely unrelated note, this forever changed the image I had of the IDF. I wouldn't mind having my house demolished if one of these soldiers was guarding the bulldozer.

At 6/28/06 06:26 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: The Palestinians launch missiles at innocent civillians and blow themselves up to kill civillians. The Israelis use targeted attacks against terrorists. Let's see. Moral equivalency? I think not.

At 6/28/06 06:51 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: And Israel is a democracy.

Yawn. You really love to stick to the issues, don't you mackid?

[HighlyIllogical]

At 6/28/06 07:01 AM, lapis wrote: And both sides carry equal responsibility, don't forget that the armed wing of Hamas kept it's calm for 16 months until the Israeli Sea Corps decided to shell a random beach where a Palestinian family was having a picnic. There are hardly any "good" or "bad" guys among the armed factions/forces of both sides in this conflict.

Shell? A random beach? Now, why the hell would they waste shells to do that? And why would the Sea Corps do that? It was likely the Army trying to destroy nearby Qassam launching sites. At least, that's what the IDF says. But I wouldn't doubt it. That makes much more sense than "oMg the IDf killz palutininz wuth duhz shellz d00d."

At 6/28/06 06:26 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: The Palestinians launch missiles at innocent civillians and blow themselves up to kill civillians. The Israelis use targeted attacks against terrorists. Let's see. Moral equivalency? I think not.

We WERE talking about this, you know.

[lapis]

At 6/28/06 07:06 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Shell? A random beach? Now, why the hell would they waste shells to do that? And why would the Sea Corps do that? It was likely the Army trying to destroy nearby Qassam launching sites. At least, that's what the IDF says. But I wouldn't doubt it. That makes much more sense than "oMg the IDf killz palutininz wuth duhz shellz d00d."

Qassam launching sites? Mind the chronology, the Hamas broke the truce after the beach was bombed. And why they did it? Probably for the same reason why so many other civilians died, 3448 according to B'Tselem, and for the same reason why they launch missiles into crowds when trying to assassinate hostile ideologists. They target crowded areas and excuse civilian casualties by claiming to target militants as a way of scaring the Palestinian militants into submissiveness.

I find hard to believe that they really are stupid enough to shell a popular beach in broad daylight. Plus, they also fucked up their orginal announcement, they're intentionally careless knowing that the international community won't intervene anyway.

At 6/28/06 06:26 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: The Palestinians launch missiles at innocent civillians and blow themselves up to kill civillians. The Israelis use targeted attacks against terrorists. Let's see. Moral equivalency? I think not.

We WERE talking about this, you know.

Answered.

[HighlyIllogical]

Qassams are launched by non-Hamas groups. And Israel has every right to destroy launching sites.

[lapis]

At 6/28/06 07:24 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Qassams are launched by non-Hamas groups. And Israel has every right to destroy launching sites.

Name an incident. There hadn't been any Qassam launches since March 30. And explain why they decided that a popular beach at 4pm would be a good place to shell.

[Athlas]

Blame the Brits. It's because of them Israel became the nation it is today.

[lapis]

At 6/28/06 07:27 AM, lapis wrote: There hadn't been any Qassam launches since March 30.

Gah, I should never just rely on Wikipedia for factual information. Missed this one for example. But the point still stands, Israel fires an average of 150 artillery shells into Gaza per Qassam which is the perfect recipe for civilian casualties. Especially launching six artillery shells to hit a beach, which had only recently been open for civilians after the Israeli setllers pulled out of Dugit, in the afternoon. Don't tell me that Israel doesn't target civilians, they use the same tactics as the Qassam launchers - firing barrages of shells into enemy territory in the hope that it hits something. The only difference is that the latter party openly admits that it doesn't mind hitting civilians while the IDF tries to cover it up, this incident was just particularly painful due to the video footage of the little girl running amidst the corpses.

[bcdemon]

At 6/28/06 06:26 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: The Palestinians launch missiles at innocent civillians and blow themselves up to kill civillians. The Israelis use targeted attacks against terrorists. Let's see. Moral equivalency? I think not.

If that's the case, then the Israelis have shit aim. Of the over 3000 Palestinians killed since Sept 2000, 22% have been children. After this incursion I'm sure both numbers will be increased.

[Slat]

At 6/28/06 06:26 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: The Palestinians launch missiles at innocent civillians and blow themselves up to kill civillians. The Israelis use targeted attacks against terrorists. Let's see. Moral equivalency? I think not.

Lol tahts funneh.. Israel kills more civilians than palestine.. Watch the fucking news..

[D2Kvirus]

At 6/28/06 06:26 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: The Palestinians launch missiles at innocent civillians and blow themselves up to kill civillians. The Israelis use targeted attacks against terrorists. Let's see. Moral equivalency? I think not.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how destroying a zoo is a targetted attack against terrorists. Am I supposed to believe that penguins are taught to be suicide bombers?

Then again, constant shelling of Palestinian settlements and shooting and intimidation of Palestinian civillians is never reported in the West. Fair and Balanced my ass...

[Lidov]

At 6/28/06 07:27 AM, lapis wrote: Name an incident. There hadn't been any Qassam launches since March 30. And explain why they decided that a popular beach at 4pm would be a good place to shell.

Before I reply to your other post, which might take a while since I have to go soon, I just have to say that this post was the biggest bullshit ever. Qassams are continuing to be launched on Israel as we speak, we hear all about it in the news all the time. Not a long time ago, the people of Shderot (an Israeli city) had a strike because of those Qassams. No Qassam launches since the 30th of March?! I wish. Also, the researches have found that it wasn't us to bomb the beach. But even if we did, it was a mistake, the missile went to the wrong location. Besides, we have the right to kill anyone who launches missiles towards us, especially if it is the contact breaking Hamas.

[HighlyIllogical]

At 6/28/06 09:59 AM, D2KVirus wrote: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how destroying a zoo is a targetted attack against terrorists. Am I supposed to believe that penguins are taught to be suicide bombers?

"Israeli forces partially pulled out of al-Brazil on the fifth day of an operation officially to hunt down Palestinian fighters and weapons-smuggling tunnels running under the border from Egypt"

Wow, reall intelligent. You didn't even read your own source.

"There was damage to buildings from fighting. The terrorists activate explosive devices under the road or next to the buildings. These bombs that destroy tanks can easily destroy a house."

Golly gosh gee.

Then again, constant shelling of Palestinian settlements and shooting and intimidation of Palestinian civillians is never reported in the West. Fair and Balanced my ass...

Ah, of COURSE. It's not like civillians harbor terrorists. No, NEVER. Shooting and intimidation? Since when?

At 6/28/06 09:32 AM, Slat wrote:

Lol tahts funneh.. Israel kills more civilians than palestine.. Watch the fucking news..

That's because (a.) it's kinda hard to tell who a civillian IS when terrorists disguise themselves, (b.) terrorists hide among civillians, (c.) civillians hide terrorists and so forth. Besides the fact that the Palestinians are unable to kill that many civillians because of the effectiveness of Israel's military.

[lapis]

At 6/28/06 10:18 AM, Lidov wrote:

Look two posts under it. I was in a hurry and didn't bother to check whether or not the crappy Wikipedia I got it from had it's facts straight. I was getting tired of the redundant remarks that didn't have much to do with the hostage situation or the ensuing military intervention and tried to make a quick post. I did, it took me three minutes to notice the post, read it and post a reply but unfortunately it contained errors. So I corrected myself with another post.

[VigilanteNighthawk]

At 6/28/06 09:59 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

This is one of the big problems with Israel's diplomacy. Israel doesn't want to deal with the Palestinians as equals. The reason they are resorting to such a high degree of force is to show the Palestinians who is still in charge. Such conflict will continue until Israel starts dealing with the Palestinians on equal grounds.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how destroying a zoo is a targetted attack against terrorists. Am I supposed to believe that penguins are taught to be suicide bombers?

Actually, yes, and I have proof!

[Lidov]

At 6/28/06 10:27 AM, lapis wrote: Look two posts under it. I was in a hurry and didn't bother to check whether or not the crappy Wikipedia I got it from had it's facts straight. I was getting tired of the redundant remarks that didn't have much to do with the hostage situation or the ensuing military intervention and tried to make a quick post. I did, it took me three minutes to notice the post, read it and post a reply but unfortunately it contained errors. So I corrected myself with another post.

The link I gave was from the 15th of this month, not to mention the fact that in this month Qassams were launched every day, not only May 31st, but every day. Also, in order to make this more shocking, the Qassams were launched by the Hamas, the palatinian ruling terror organization which signed a cease fire and broke it.

[lapis]

At 6/28/06 10:18 AM, Lidov wrote: Also, the researches have found that it wasn't us to bomb the beach.

I linked to this earlier, the IDF statement was false as they didn't take two gunboat shells into account, so we'll have to take their word for it when they say that the shells landed far away from Huda Ghalia's family. They also made mistakes regarding the points in time at which the events took place: the IDF claimed that the civilians must have died at some point between 16.57 and 17.10, but a UN call was already made at 16.43 which mentioned a number of casualties near the coast.

At 6/28/06 11:05 AM, Lidov wrote: The link I gave was from the 15th of this month, not to mention the fact that in this month Qassams were launched every day, not only May 31st, but every day. Also, in order to make this more shocking, the Qassams were launched by the Hamas, the palatinian ruling terror organization which signed a cease fire and broke it.

The beach shelling took place on the ninth of June, which was also the time at which the Hamas announced that they'd
revoke the truce. So it's not that much of a surprise that they launched those Qassams at the 15th or a few days before that. My Hebrew is also pretty lacking so whatever is written in your link is beyond me. If you could give me in a link in English which proves that the Hamas launched a Qassam before the ninth then I'll admit that the Hamas didn't live up to their cease-fire. The cease-fire was pretty one-sided anyway since the IDF continued to assassinate Hamas officials even after their electoral victory, the real surprise here is that the Hamas upheld the truce for so long, rather than that they broke it in the end.