Forum Topic: Depleted uranium

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<deleted>

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Posted at: 6/18/06 07:22 PM

Further Evidence on Relation between Depleted Uranium, Incidence of Malignancies among Children in Basra, Southern Iraq

Dr. Alim Yacoup; Dr. Imad Al-Sa’ doun; Dr. Genan G. Hassan

College of Medicine, Basra University

Information on the incidence of malignancies among children below 15 years of age in Basrah, southern Iraq was updated to include 1999 in addition to the already reported for the period 1990-1998. There has been a 100 % rise in the incidence of various forms of leukemia among children in 1999 compared to 1990 while the reported percentage increase 1997 compared to 1990 for the same forms was 60 %. The corresponding rise for all malignancies among such children in 1999 compared to 1990 was 242 % while the percentage increase in 1997 compared to 1990 was 120 %. The overall incidence rate of all malignancies was 10.1 per 100, 000 of children below 15 years of age compared to 3.98 in 1990 and 7.22 in 1997. During the period from 1993 to 1998 the average annual incidence rate of malignancies among children ranged from 3.1 per 100,000 in Shatt Al-Arab district to 11.8 per 100, 000 in Al-Hartha. In 1999 the reported rates ranged from 5.3 in Abu-Al-khassib to 13.2 in Al-Zubier district with noticeable increase in such rates in all districts in Basra including Basra center, Qurna, Mudaina and shatt-Al-Arab. The findings reported in 1999 provided further epidemiological evidence that the increased incidence of malignancies among children in Basrah is related to exposure to depleted uranium used by the western allies during their aggression on Iraq in 1991.
http://www.iacenter...depleted/du_iraq.htm

More info:
www.psr.org/document..gram_4/DU_Report.pdf

http://www.who.int/m..factsheets/fs257/en/

Do you guys remember that Agent Orange thing from the Vietnam war? How Monsanto claimed it was safe to use around humans and then how millions of American and Vietnamese babies were born deformed?


Angry

Connnorrokz

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Posted at: 6/18/06 08:15 PM

Connnorrokz NEUTRAL LEVEL 07

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Who cares? You just wanted to post somethg.


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<deleted>

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Posted at: 6/18/06 08:18 PM

At 6/18/06 08:15 PM, Connnorrokz wrote: Who cares? You just wanted to post somethg.

Yeah, that's how a BBS works, welcome to newgrounds.


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Humbucker740

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Posted at: 6/18/06 09:18 PM

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At 6/18/06 08:18 PM, sea_food wrote:
At 6/18/06 08:15 PM, Connnorrokz wrote: Who cares? You just wanted to post somethg.
Yeah, that's how a BBS works, welcome to newgrounds.

But your post sucks ass. Who the fuck cares about depleted uranium?! its like lead in the pipes but NOT AS BAD. Please, PLEASE, post something better next time. or don't post at all.

Libertarian. Religious Nihilist. Philosophical Skeptic.
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afrodave

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Posted at: 6/18/06 09:42 PM

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WOOOT!!!1

DEPLETED URANIUM ROCKS!!!

Hell yeah.

Post count + cocks.

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ReiperX

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Posted at: 6/18/06 10:06 PM

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Depleted Uranium is effective, but I don't agree with its use. The side effects from it seem to outweigh the benefits. Or at least use Depleted Uranium only when necisarry.


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JoS

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Posted at: 6/19/06 12:00 AM

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At 6/18/06 08:15 PM, Connnorrokz wrote: Who cares? You just wanted to post somethg.

No, you clearly just wanted to post.

Bellum omnium contra omnes

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Ice-9

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Posted at: 6/19/06 08:43 AM

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There good doctor doesn't even address a few issues that will make their report inconclusive at best when it is submitted for peer review.

1) It does not address the impact the oil-for-food program had on the pre-natal care of Iraqi children.

2) The statement "the prolonged effect of ionization caused by the enormous energy emission and light energy from the massive bombing is, over a period of more than ten years, equal to one hundred Chernobyls" is unqualified. The depleted uranium never reached the radioactivity level near Chernobyl. When there is global fallout from DU, we'll talk.

Nonetheless, this report is centered around the hypothesis that radiation from DU is causing these birth-defects. Let's take some other examples to test the validity of this claim.

From Chernobyl: There have been no excess leukemias, congenital abnormalities, adverse pregnancy outcomes or any other radiation induced disease in the general population. Chernobyl Health Effects

If the Iraqi doctors claim is true, then where a higher level of radioactivity occured higher levels of disease would also occur. The Chernobyl health reports seem to contradict this.

Need some more? Let's take the works of John D. Zimbrick, Ph.D. School of Health Sciences Purdue Univerity concerning the affects of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

An excellent reference for all manner of questions regarding the A-bomb survivors is the book by William J Schull, Effects of Atomic Radiation: A Half-Century of Studies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Wiley-Liss, Inc., 605 Third Avenue, New York, NY 10158-0012 (1995) ; ISBN # 0-471-12524-5. This is a scholarly book and yet is written at a level that the intelligent layperson can understand. It has a wealth of historical as well as scientific information about the studies, spanning the entire time period since the bombs were dropped. Following are answers to the specific questions asked:

1. Much information is available; for example, in the book cited above.

2. In 1995, 50 years after the atomic bombings, approximately 50 percent of the survivors were still alive. The exact number is difficult to state, but it could exceed 100,000. (For example, 284,000 survivors were identified in the 1950 census; this would indicate that there were about 142,000 remaining survivors in 1995.)

3. No genetic effects have been detected in a large sample (nearly 80,000) of offspring. By this, we mean that there is no detectable radiation-related increase in congenital abnormalities, mortality (including childhood cancers), chromosome aberrations, or mutations in biochemically identifiable genes.

4. Unfortunately, the epidemiologic studies on the survivors who received low doses of radiation (in the range of 0.01 Sv to 0.2 Sv) are equivocal regarding good measures of the risk of long-term health effects. This is because, even though the statistical sample available in the survivor studies is very large (nearly 100,000 subjects in the Life Span Study), it can be shown that many, many more subjects would be needed to draw reasonable statistically valid inferences from the data. Thus the data at low doses have large error bars and can be fit to mathematical models that show a threshold, no threshold, reduced effect, and in some cases even a beneficial (protective) effect, depending on the model one picks. There is no model that seems to be more valid than the others. Therefore, the consensus of the community of scientists interested in the A-bomb, as well as other, radiation studies seems to be that epidemiologic studies do not have the statistical power to give us answers to the low-dose questions. This issue is thoroughly discussed in the book by William J. Schull.

Wait, once again the Iraqi doctors conjecture is false as we now have larger samples to test the claim (Ukraine and Japan).

3) This one is pretty important: Much of the Iran-Iraq War was fought around Al-Basrah, the same place this study was done. Guess what was used? CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

The report was done on the exact same age group who would have been born after the war, but would have had parents who were old enough and in the right area to be exposed.

Since chemical weapons bind themselves to a particular function of the body (depending on the type of agent), these people would be walking around and fucking with a chemical agent now become terratogen.

The Iraqi doctors should submit their findings for peer review. Or maybe it was and deemed "inconclusive."

What we need more of is science, not agenda driven manifestos.


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mjairlax

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Posted at: 6/19/06 09:10 AM

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but in Iraq unlike Chernobyl people weren't evacuted and radioative(sp) particles are known to concentrate in plants and animals. If most people had drank milk harvested from radioative cows and had eaten food from radioative plants it is possible over time the exposer could have increased


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mjairlax

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Posted at: 6/19/06 09:15 AM

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Ice-9 your post makes some interesting points the most interesting one about the iran-iraq war but a good test would be to run the raw data through some statical analzes


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<deleted>

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Posted at: 6/19/06 04:05 PM

Ice-9, then let's see American doctors and the military do studies on the effects of their depleted uranium, not just on their soldiers but on the population that have to live entire lives in area contaminated by depleted uranium.

If this hypothetical report proved DU to be absolutely harmless, then I'll gladly shut the fuck up.

Unfortunately, no such study is planned to take place anytime soon.


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x-Toadenalin-x

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Posted at: 6/19/06 05:30 PM

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At 6/18/06 10:06 PM, ReiperX wrote: Depleted Uranium is effective, but I don't agree with its use. The side effects from it seem to outweigh the benefits. Or at least use Depleted Uranium only when necisarry.

Agreed. Do you want to tell the department of defense or shall I?


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Ice-9

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Posted at: 6/19/06 05:45 PM

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At 6/19/06 04:05 PM, sea_food wrote: Ice-9, then let's see American doctors and the military do studies on the effects of their depleted uranium, not just on their soldiers but on the population that have to live entire lives in area contaminated by depleted uranium.

If this hypothetical report proved DU to be absolutely harmless, then I'll gladly shut the fuck up.

Unfortunately, no such study is planned to take place anytime soon.

I concur that there have been no long term studies around the uses of DU -there can't be as it's a pretty new munition, in relative terms. However, the reverse side of that is there are no conclusive studies showing its dangerous either.


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HighlyIllogical

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Posted at: 6/19/06 06:01 PM

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DU has been brought up before. But it's a non-issue. The military WILL use it because it's very effective at penetrating armor, skulls, concrete, tank armor etc. The question is if they'll clean it up. If they do, then use it- feel free to use it.


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rocket-scientist

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Posted at: 6/19/06 07:24 PM

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the DU ammunition often breaks up into dust after use. this makes it incredibly harder to clean up and also makes it more dangerous as it can get into lungs, which will make getting cancer much more likely.

while the idea of starting an army mounted hoover unit to clean up all the DU dust in the iraq and afganistan deserts certainly creates an interesting image. i imagine their uniforms being pink with sequins. i think it is unlikely that the military would follow this direction.

it would make more sense to use a non radioactive or at least less radioactive heavy element instead. but that might cost more.


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afterdeath

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Posted at: 6/19/06 08:38 PM

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Depleted Uranium, enjoy it with your soyant green!


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Jayemare

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Posted at: 6/19/06 08:42 PM

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At 6/19/06 07:24 PM, rocket_scientist wrote: it would make more sense to use a non radioactive or at least less radioactive heavy element instead.

No it wouldn't. If there were other materials that were as cheap and effective as depleted uranium, then we would use them.

Should we ban an effective weapon because a single doctor has a theory about what caused something? We can't ban things at the drop of the hat just because a few crackpots have theories about what they do.

After cherynobyl people went on and on about how dangerous nuclear powerwas and how we shut down all the reactors and go live in the woods. Same thing with DDT. One person thinks it will do something bad and we ban it just to be safe. But people don't realize that this often is a worse outcome than still using the chemical/material/process in question.

Once there is definitive proof that DU causes elevated cancer levels, then we can
think about banning it. And while we're doing the study we can also do one of the people that would be killed by banning it--namely american soldiers. Then we can decide what to do.


Questioning

<deleted>

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Posted at: 6/19/06 08:44 PM

At 6/19/06 05:45 PM, Ice-9 wrote: I concur that there have been no long term studies around the uses of DU -there can't be as it's a pretty new munition, in relative terms. However, the reverse side of that is there are no conclusive studies showing its dangerous either.

That's pretty inconsiderate and reckless, no?


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<deleted>

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Posted at: 6/19/06 08:48 PM

At 6/19/06 08:42 PM, Jayemare wrote: Once there is definitive proof that DU causes elevated cancer levels, then we can
think about banning it. And while we're doing the study we can also do one of the people that would be killed by banning it--namely american soldiers. Then we can decide what to do.

I'm not asking for a ban, I'm asking that people be aware of this. FYI, a study of DU effects on American soldiers has already been done but not on the people directly affected by it - the Iraqi people. I've already mentioned this in this thread, I hate repeating myself.


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Jayemare

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Posted at: 6/19/06 09:49 PM

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At 6/19/06 08:48 PM, sea_food wrote:

a study of DU effects on American soldiers

No, I'm saying american soldiers would die as a result of not being able to use it as a weapon, like a tank that a warthog would have pwnd survives and goes on to kill a soldier.


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HighlyIllogical

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Posted at: 6/20/06 09:34 AM

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At 6/19/06 07:24 PM, rocket_scientist wrote:
it would make more sense to use a non radioactive or at least less radioactive heavy element instead. but that might cost more.

DU is much, much less radioactive than uranium 235.

It is only really dangerous if ingested or if it passes through the skin.

"DU is 40 percent less radioactive than the uranium in the raw uranium-bearing ores found in nature; but its material content is still uranium. The specific activity of DU is, therefore, about 0.4 µCi/g. All isotopes of uranium are essentially identical chemically and, since depleted and natural uranium are just different mixtures of the same three isotopes, they have the same chemical properties.

The Department of Energy has recently reported that the DU used by DOD in its armor plates (found only on "Heavy Armor" Abrams tank models) may contain trace levels of transuranics (neptunium, plutonium, and americium) and fission products (technetium-99). The DU used in munitions may also contain these materials. The military services are testing the stocks of DU munitions and parts. The levels of transuranics and fission products found during testing of the material used for producing armor packages are in minute quantities (the picocurie/gram range) and result in less than a one percent increase in the internal radiation dose. These evaluations indicate that measures designed to protect personnel from the DU itself are adequate to protect them from the traces of transuranics and fission products as well."

http://www.gulflink...du_ii/du_ii_tabc.htm

FTW.


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Gendo

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Posted at: 6/20/06 10:03 AM

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rocket-scientist

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Posted at: 6/20/06 10:43 AM

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At 6/20/06 09:34 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:
At 6/19/06 07:24 PM, rocket_scientist wrote:
it would make more sense to use a non radioactive or at least less radioactive heavy ELEMENT instead. but that might cost more.
DU is much, much less radioactive than uranium 235.

i said ELEMENT for a reason

while depleted uranium contains a different assortment of isotopes it isnt a different element. i was suggesting a DIFFERENT heavy element that was less radioactive than Uranium. which would provide the armor piercing components without the associated radioactive leftovers.

It is only really dangerous if ingested or if it passes through the skin.
The Department of Energy has recently reported that the DU used by DOD in its armor plates (found only on "Heavy Armor" Abrams tank models) may contain trace levels of transuranics (neptunium, plutonium, and americium) and fission products (technetium-99). The DU used in munitions may also contain these materials. The military services are testing the stocks of DU munitions and parts. The levels of transuranics and fission products found during testing of the material used for producing armor packages are in minute quantities (the picocurie/gram range) and result in less than a one percent increase in the internal radiation dose. These evaluations indicate that measures designed to protect personnel from the DU itself are adequate to protect them from the traces of transuranics and fission products as well."

FTW.

that all seems nice for the department of energies "personnel" but the main concerns are for the people left after the battle with DU leftovers in the ground, water and air that inevitably get ingested and pass through the skin. which as you say is where it gets really dangerous. uranium is nasty stuff.

FTW.


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<deleted>

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Posted at: 6/20/06 01:28 PM

At 6/19/06 09:49 PM, Jayemare wrote: No, I'm saying american soldiers would die as a result of not being able to use it as a weapon, like a tank that a warthog would have pwnd survives and goes on to kill a soldier.

hypothetically: Iraqi civilians shouldn't have to pay for the safety of American soldiers.


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At 6/18/06 09:42 PM, afrodave wrote: WOOOT!!!1

DEPLETED URANIUM ROCKS!!!

Hell yeah.

Finally someone I can agree with.


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MeSmashie

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Posted at: 6/20/06 02:07 PM

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Best dammed thing for armour piercing rounds!!!


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