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Big News for Reviews!

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Liquidz2k
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 19:56:06 Reply

At 2/11/03 05:45 PM, liljim wrote: Along with flagging these "bad" reviews, this feature serves another purpose - imagine coming across a fictitious submission, "Xiao Xiao 99999". You've seen the other Xiao Xiao movies, and you're on a 56K modem. Someone writes in a review:

"This was really great, but I'm on a 56Kb connection and there wasn't enough new stuff in there to justify the 5Mb download."

This is one of those things that works in theory, but not so well in practice. Neither me, nor my friends read the review's before we see the movie/game. They often spoil things. I think it is safe to say that other users (at lest the majority) do the same thing. The only review I always read is the default one that shows up on the page with the voting buttons.

Also I do not feel like taking the time to vote on reviews. I would if they are on my movie, but I don't feel like voting on a bunch of reviews.

Now something that could inspire people to do so would be to have a top 50 most usefull reviewer's section on the user page. That would inspire good reviews, as everyone can vote on the review, and see it for what it is.

ZuulRules22
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 20:06:12 Reply

I dont know if this is a programming faulty related to the new review thing, but it hasnt happened until now... notice that on the movies with enourmous amounts of reviews, when you try to jump to the very last page it gives an error message saying there is no page 486 or whatever. well, whatever it is, im sure its fixable... (for example, check out the Boco review thing, when you try to skip pages, screwy stuff happens, it might be related to my computer but i doubt it)

lil-Ginny
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 20:26:51 Reply

=)
Sometime in the near future,

------------------------------------------------
Hi, Welcome to Newgrounds.com.
You're welcome to come look around
and enjoy any of our MILLIONS apon
MILLIONS of flash movies and games.

(user presses portal)
----
Hi, Welcome to the portal.
7 billion movies/games.

Please choose
1)Movie
2)Review
3)a Movie about a Review
4)a Review about a movie about a Review
5)a Movie..........

Welcome to the future =)

HardcoreChristmas
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 20:28:36 Reply

Don't you think that they'll be so many reported reviews that you would be flooded?

Birthofagod
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 20:33:00 Reply

Once again I'm scared because I fear for my life if I gave a bad review. Oh well, its still a really good idea.

Big News for Reviews!

beachboy212
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 20:38:17 Reply

This is great!!

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Keyser-Soze
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 20:40:59 Reply

Example of an abusive review:

"Fuck you stupid noob, you should go overdose on barbituates while jumping off the Empire State Building and shooting yourself in the head at the same time, you fucking Linkin Park pre-teen cock-muncher. Eat my asshole, you little shit-faced jack-off. I've got a good idea; why don't you go jack-off to the sounds of your sister getting fucked by me. And when you're done with that, you can jack off to the sounds of me fucking your mom, you pizza-faced little fuckwad. Then I'm gonna tie you to a chair and cut your ear off like in Reservior Dogs, and since Tim Roth isn't here to save you this time, I'm gonna set you on fire too, you little used up pap smear. God, your fucking flash skills have to to be the fucking worst in the entire world. You should have your nuts cut off and have the right one mailed to the south pole and the other mailed to the north pole, so penguins can shit on the left, and Santa can cram the right one up his runny asshole, you little cluster-fucked, inbred, peter-beater. I hope you drown in a sea of sailor's cum before you make another flash movie, you horrendous, down-syndrome-plagued, vaginal discharge."

See guys? Tom doesn't want you to write stuff like that.

Big News for Reviews!

poxpower
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:01:07 Reply

At 2/11/03 08:40 PM, Keyser_Soze wrote: Example of an abusive review:

"Fuck you stupid noob, you should go overdose on barbituates while jumping off the Empire State Building and shooting yourself in the head at the same time, you fucking Linkin Park pre-teen cock-muncher. Eat my asshole, you little shit-faced jack-off. I've got a good idea; why don't you go jack-off to the sounds of your sister getting fucked by me. And when you're done with that, you can jack off to the sounds of me fucking your mom, you pizza-faced little fuckwad. Then I'm gonna tie you to a chair and cut your ear off like in Reservior Dogs, and since Tim Roth isn't here to save you this time, I'm gonna set you on fire too, you little used up pap smear. God, your fucking flash skills have to to be the fucking worst in the entire world. You should have your nuts cut off and have the right one mailed to the south pole and the other mailed to the north pole, so penguins can shit on the left, and Santa can cram the right one up his runny asshole, you little cluster-fucked, inbred, peter-beater. I hope you drown in a sea of sailor's cum before you make another flash movie, you horrendous, down-syndrome-plagued, vaginal discharge."

See guys? Tom doesn't want you to write stuff like that.

I don't know if he whant you to write that or not, he just wants to be sure people who read it won't think it has any relevance. Like, if you say the guy's skills suck, but you review was voted/ said to be (or watever) completely useless and untrue, it will encourage people to still watch the movie.
But I know you know that and that you just wanted to write a very entertaining text...
HEY! THAT'S AN IDEA! A NEWGROUNDS INSULT FORUM WHERE PEOPLE WHO CAN NO LONGER BASH ON OTHER PEOPLE'S STUFF IN THEIR REVIEW CAN PUT THEIR CREATIVITY TO INSULT AN IMAGINARY PERSON. THIS WOULD RESULT IN A LOT OF VERY FUNNY STUFF!
Like, come on, every one know Tom Green's jokes are stupid as hell, but he still gets people laughing...


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ofassley
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:08:00 Reply

At 2/11/03 07:56 PM, Liquidz2k wrote: This is one of those things that works in theory, but not so well in practice. [...]

Also I do not feel like taking the time to vote on reviews. I would if they are on my movie, but I don't feel like voting on a bunch of reviews.

Now something that could inspire people to do so would be to have a top 50 most usefull reviewer's section on the user page. That would inspire good reviews, as everyone can vote on the review, and see it for what it is.

and further down somebody writes "don't you think you'll get so many reports that you'll get flooded."

i think are all excellent points. the web, especially where you have user generated content, is a place of anarchy. That's part of its appeal. Rules must be established for the good of the community but lots of rules more often than not lead to an administrative nightmare and don't turn out as effective as you hope they would. Plus they add additional infrastructure and muddle the concept of the site, which I think some users are picking up on in this thread.

my experience has been to read reviews while the movie loads. it's entertaining and sometimes useful. i think there's definitely enough of a consensus among reviewers already for me to get a general idea about the movie and use my own judgement to tell who's giving constructive feedback and who's just yapping their mouth. I don't need "reviews of reviews" because it's redundant. I don't think the artists need it either in order to tell BS from well thought out feedback.

two other points:

-- it's probably much better to encourage good reviewers than to try to deter or limit trash. A single "I found this review useful" vote would do that. Having both kinds of votes is added redundancy to a semi-redundant feature. this way you would set a more open and positive tone... and not sacrifice the entertainment value of trashy reviews, which is definitely there.

-- you're moving away from the feel of NG as it currently is. That's of course up to you. But you're sending mixed messages... the ripped-apart flash movie images in the graveyard, the lit on the history of NG including club-a-seal, send one message and the zero-tolerance policy sends another. The further along you move in the current direction, the more of the original feel you're going to have to shed in order to stay consistent, I don't know if you've thought about it like that. my overall sense is that the site owes a lot of its current success to the fact that it's really fun because it's crazy and anarchic.

i don't know how much this kind of stuff will impact how cool and counter-culture the site remains. probably some. you're probably trying to attract better talent, but i'm betting you don't have to sterilize everything to do that, just keep making this more and more popular and it will attract quality stuff that's seeking publicity.

overall, i think a really good way to deal with abusive users is to ignore them (unless they cross some very serious line) and encourage the rest. that way you get the best of both worlds, trashy fun and constructive feedback.

(yo, tom, i don't know if you'll read this, but this is tony from dogears.net. I'm dealing with the exact same kind of shit right now, so recent developments on NG in this vein have been really interesting, like, totally fascinating.)

NHJKL7601666
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:08:59 Reply

Jesus F'Ing christ! Don't you have anything better to do than discourage our opinions of the crappy submissions that make up 99% of the portal entries? Work on Pico 2 or something more constructive than this.

TigerClock
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:09:30 Reply

so we cant say "this movie sux"?


Wow so long a go it seems

Tool-Of-The-System
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:13:13 Reply

At 2/11/03 09:09 PM, Tommy_B wrote: so we cant say "this movie sux"?

Without saying the bad stuff about it, yes.

NastyMan069
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:14:52 Reply

whats with all the crack down on so many people now? shit, i aint a hater on flash. I vote fairly and all the such, but come on now, u guys are acting like cops...

PixelPerfect
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:19:50 Reply

Haven't read any of the above replies to this, too tired, so I don't know if this suggestion's come up..

But how about making the reviews with the highest 'helpful' score being at the top? For example, one review gets '3/3 people found this review helpful', thus it becomes the review that's visible at the movie's page. While something with 2/3 gets pushed down, and abusive-rated reviews are at the bottom.

Actually.. Ok it could have some bad reprecussions like clock movies that would probably get 1236/1245 found this review helpful: "w00t" and well yeah..

I dunno, it's 3 AM here.

FrankTheTank987
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:20:47 Reply

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

WHY TOM WHY. AND WHY ARE U WASTING YOUR TIME ON THESE STUPID , USELESS UPGRADES WHEN YOU CAN BE MAKING PICO 2.

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dekong
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:26:14 Reply

That's a good idea. to trie to prevent the reviewers from being to harsh on a movie/game or harsh on the artist.

You know what with all these improvements i am surprised that no ones come up with a way to vote on an artist.

Anyway.

Keep up the good work.

RaGe-UnLimited
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:37:39 Reply

Its a good idea but come on, if a movie sucks we should ba able to say this sucks or something like that. I mean since when did NG become a place that tell u what u can and cant say. I like being able to say what I want!!!

I am Canadian and I like to say what I want, when I want!!!!!

Big News for Reviews!

nazibomb
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 21:49:15 Reply

Hey, Tom, will there be a way for reviewers to see if people thought there reviews were helpful or not helpful or just plain abuse?(like in thier grounds gold menu)?


.

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EarthCrisis
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 22:14:57 Reply

At 2/11/03 07:24 PM, Luche2463 wrote: Again, we have the owners of this site telling people how to think about stuff that we see.

Yeah youre right. They are trying to control us which isnt really a bad thing, but when it comes to banning people for reviewing something and not liking it thats too far. some of us write big ass reviews with points in them, but accidently delete it and don't remember what you said except for the fact you didn't like it so you put "this is a piece of crap take up golf." in it's place. Sometimes I delete what I said with a few yhgk by accident and most lof and other people making no sense at all are like me, they forgot everything they said and accidently pressed a button while putting in their password that deleted what they said didnt see it and clicked submit. If you can find out who I am and get my dogs name you will be able to hack into my account but then you still have to put her middle name too which we never call her by.

DukeLexon
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 22:28:27 Reply

Generally, I'm strictly a lurker. However, I will break from the trend to speak my peace...I truly feel there is some serious misunderstanding going on here.

1) Many of you seem to think that Mr. Fulp is wasting his time with recent changes, and that his resources would be better invested elsewhere. I don't know why so many people take 30% of what was announced and run with it. I wish more people would get into the habit of reading EVERYTHING that was said; they'd know that it is LilJim struggling with the new code, and not Mr. Fulp himself. Even if the founder was spending a lot of time making changes himself, he need not answer to any of you for it. He owes you nothing; the entertainment provided by Newgrounds is a completely free service...in short, he can do what he wishes. Nobody is trying to take your "rights" away.

2) Many of you also seem to think it's dangerous to vote a "0" on any submission. Again, this is an issue with people reading a portion of information, and ignoring the rest. Wade, Tom, and LilJim have repeatedly said that there is simply NO way that normal voting could be confused with abusive voting. If you watch 100 submissions, and vote zero on 100 of them, then you have a problem. If a movie deserves a zero, then VOTE a zero. Don't worry about it.

Do you actually fear for your "life" when you vote zero? Somebody said this, but...give me a break. Even if you are abusive with the system and you KNOW it, nobody will be taking your 'rights' away. You'll still be able to watch everything, post, and even VOTE.

You lose only experience points, and that's only after it's clear that you're voting a zero on EVERYTHING. Your account is still there, and you still have every bit as much freedom as you did. You're not losing anything. This is not some 'Orwellian' militarist move; they'll just keep your stupidity from having such an impact on a submission's score. It's your ill-gotten experience points that will disappear; not your account.

There's no way a fair voter can be mistaken for an idiot who goes through the entire Portal and votes a 0 on anything over 2 megabytes. It's that simple.

3) Many of you also seem to be under the impression that giving a negative review will garner you some sort of punishment. Even if you were COMPLETELY out of line and extremely abusive, NOTHING will happen to you. Your account remains. You can still watch submissions. You can still post. You can still vote. You can even still write reviews, for the Love of the Light! The worst that can happen is that little rating will show exactly what everyone thought of your review.

You still have every freedom to say exactly what you think, nobody is trying to take it away. You can review with nothing but "fuck you" every time. It's just that other people will be able to give a voiceless response to your review. To me, trying to squash the rating seems to be more of a repressive move than anything Tom has done. The rating is simply another manifestation of the voice of the people. Trust me, you have nothing to worry about if only 2/6 people find your review "helpful."

4) Just because you never read reviews before watching a submission does not mean that nobody else does.

It was always my impression, however, that the review system was supposed to be as much of a tool to the author as it was to everyone else. No matter how many nice things are said, it is always the nasty things that stick out. They burn brighter than anything else, and one hurtful comment will drown out a thousand constructive ones. If nothing else, the rating will show the AUTHOR that the view of an abusive reviewer is not the common one.

Newgrounds, as it exists now, receives its strength from the artists. The content comes from them. They ARE Newgrounds. If you are like me, and you are only a member of the "audience," well then...sorry to say it, but we're leechers. It's ridiculous to claim you're having you're rights taken away...you have NO rights. This is free. You are given REMARKABLE freedom to do and say as you wish.

I do NOT see how anyone has the audacity to whine because people can now "rate" whether or not what you said really helped anyone. To me, that seems like more of the peoples' voice...not less. However, because of this freedom, which you do STILL have, you can continue whining, so I will tolerate it.

Writing reviews that actually help the artists is a way to almost pay your keep. Bad reviews that don't tell them how to improve can only discourage them. Discouraged artists don't create anymore. Artists that don't create anymore = no more Newgrounds. This is a defensive maneuver. It's not a declaration of war.

For those of you don't have the patience to go through all of what I've written, just know this: Vote what you think a movie is worth without fear. Nobody will come crawling down your back. Say what you think. Just make sure to include WHY you think it. Or don't. It's still your freedom. Nothing has been taken away from you. So please....just shut up.

-Lex

SicSlipknotMaggot666
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 23:18:02 Reply

Wow great job h00ray!!!!

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flashbak300
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 23:25:11 Reply

uh oh theyre going to lower our exp pts or ban us for reviewing the way we want to

johnkilo
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 23:26:06 Reply

Yeah, I guess this system isnt going to be abused like the blamming system is.....
I just see more problems and fighting over this.

DukeLexon
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-11 23:42:19 Reply

For the Love of the Light!

Obviously, my first post was FAR too verbose for people to be patient with, so I'll say make this point again, concisely.

NOBODY will be banned for writing a negative review. Other people will be able to RATE how helpful the reviews that you write are. Nobody is going to stop you from saying what you want. You won't be stopped; you won't be banned. It's just a rating. Nothing will happen to you if only 2/6 people found your review helpful.

Understand?

Keyser-Soze
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-12 00:02:37 Reply

Ya gotta keep posts short and sweet my friend. If you start to feel that you are writing too much for others to read, I find it's best to just go ahead and cut yourself off at the appropriate poi

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DukeLexon
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-12 00:15:39 Reply

Yes, I do tend to go overboard. I have so many thoughts going a thousand miles a minute, and I'm trying to express them all at once. Also, I type nearly 100 words per minute, so it doesn't feel like very much to me until I actually look at it.

I sincerely apologize for that; it's all part of my overall arrogance and obnoxiousness. I'd change if I could, but I can't.

It really doesn't hurt anyone to spend the extra 0.5 seconds to scroll past a particularly long-winded post, though. My hope was there would be at least a few people who pay any attention to me. A futile hope.

Back on topic, now.

ofassley
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-12 00:16:55 Reply

At 2/12/03 12:02 AM, Keyser_Soze wrote: Ya gotta keep posts short and sweet my friend. If you start to feel that you are writing too much for others to read, I find it's best to just go ahead and cut yourself off at the appropriate poi

yeah, hehe, i was about to post another essay, but then trashed it. but in any case, just wanted to say that: lex aka dukelexon, NG depends more on the viewers than it does the artists. if there are viewers, then artists will come. so you can't turn the viewers off. if there are no serious reprecussions for leaving insulting reviews then the system is mostly designed to scare people off. that's a bad idea. yeah yeah, people don't read all the info... and don't expect them to. they'll just get scared and that'll be that, especially if you consider how old kids on here are. ok, i'll just sto

Kodega
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-12 00:26:14 Reply

Alright but maybe after you click on a button it ask something like "Are you sure?" Because when scrolling through people might accidently click on the something they didn't mean to.

Socratostotle
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-12 00:36:24 Reply

Hey I have an idea.
Lets coddle all the bad flash artists who whine about their bad work (or proactivley PROTEST AGAINST BAD RATINGS IN THEIR INFORMATION SECTION), and the fact that they dont WANT to improve, but to get praise for subpar work. You wanna feel all warm and gooey? Too bad. Artists dont need to feel warm and gooey, they need something to work for and something to work against. (Sorry about that! I just have to vent!) A bad review by a stupid person should inspire you to shut him up with something even better than the previous work, no matter HOW good the quality. A bad review by an intelligent person should tell you where to go in a good direction. A good review by a stupid person should make you wonder about it, and a good review by an intelligent person should make you proud of it. This is an uneccesary, and perhaps dangerous step to an artist.
That said, I love flash art, and all opinions DO matter whether the artist likes it or not. Really, my point is, you guys can't be discouraged by the world so easily. Art is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone is mature. Not everyone is like-minded to you. Should it matter so much? Sadly, it seems like instead of showing your humor, your intelligence, or your emotion here, it's more like each flash artist is simply trying to make the big hit (or steal it, grrr.) This is shown perfectly by the complaints about bad reviews, (some legitimate, some not.)
I would like to end saying that flash is a unique and complex tool, and that should be reflected by the art produced, instead of the artists complaining that it's not popular. You exceptions out there, you know who you are!
Keep reaching new heights, everyone! I hope you all make your own, unique style well liked.

Nostrant
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Response to Big News for Reviews! 2003-02-12 00:56:47 Reply

What about the people who give outstanding reviews to absolute crap? All these rules and attempts to get people to have the same opinions and be nice is really getting boring. Have you noticed all the crap that's making it onto the portal because people are afraid to get rid of it? New Grounds got popular for one reason and now you're spitting in the face of all of those people who made it big. Not good man.