The French-German Peaceplan

[IraqNOphobiA]

Yesterday(9feb); The German minister of defence, Peter Struck confirmed the existance of an French-German peaceplan for the prevention of a possible war in Iraq.
Wich will be presented to the UN on the 14th of febuary. The french have as yet not replied.

The peaceplan includes plans to send a large international Peacekeeping force, under UN-flag, to assist the weapon inspectors and to increase the number of inspectors.
Furthermore it contains plans for strickter oil-export policy to prevent iraqi oil smuggle.

The Russian president Poetin and Russian minister Ivanov said in a conversation with the german chanseler Schöder that germany and france have thier full support.

This all undermining the US-lead prowar efforts.
President Bush said yesterday that "the game was over". Shortly after his statement the inspecters comfirmed that cooperration with the Iraqi's has improved stating the opposite.

Can the US sincerely claim to be a peace loving nation if it does not support this/a peaceplan?

Is it really time for war(as the US and UK claim) or should we wait untill all diplomatic efforts are exhausted?

Will this peaceplan work? Can Saddam allow a peacekeeping force in his borders.

Fact is: Convincing evidence will atleast be needed to rally the rest of the free-world for this socalled 'just' war.

[Slizor]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,892406,00.html

US fury at European peace plan

Transatlantic tensions burst into public slanging match as French and Germans call for more time

Ian Black in Brussels, Richard Norton-Taylor in Munich and Julian Borger in Washington
Monday February 10, 2003
The Guardian

The Bush administration reacted with rage last night to a Franco-German initiative to extend arms inspections in Iraq, portraying the plan as a thinly disguised attempt to derail the US timetable for war.
With relations between the three nations plummeting, leaders on both sides of the divide made no attempt to hide their growing contempt. Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, called on Paris and Berlin last night to study the UN resolution which they had backed. "What France has to do and what I think Germany has to do ... is read 1441 again."

The Franco-German plan, revealed at the weekend, would triple the number of UN weapons inspectors and back them up with surveillance flights. One unconfirmed report said thousands of UN troops would be sent into Iraq to support the inspectors.

The emergence of the plan just days before the US is expected to press the case for military action at the UN was greeted with unalloyed anger by the White House. To heighten the sense of irritation, Berlin said it would put the joint plan before the security council on Friday, just hours after the chief weapons inspector, Dr Hans Blix, is to present his crucial report.

Colin Powell swiftly dismissed the initiative: "I don't think the next step should be 'Let's send in more inspectors to be stiffed' [deceived]. Tripling the number of inspectors doesn't deal with the issue. This idea of more inspectors, or no-fly zones, or whatever else may be in this proposal that is being developed is a diversion, not a solution."

The Franco-German plan threatens to be a serious complication for Washington, which wanted Friday's security council meeting to pose a single question: was Saddam Hussein disarming or not?

US and British diplomats would then propose a second resolution that would represent a mandate for military action. The unexpected third option muddies the water.

To make matters worse, from Washington's position, Russia last night backed an extension of time for the UN weapons inspectors. Speaking after a meeting with German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, Russian President Vladimir Putin said: "We are convinced that efforts for a peaceful resolution of the situation regarding Iraq should be persistently continued."

US anger was compounded by the fact that the first it knew of the initiative was in a report in the German news magazine Der Spiegel. France insisted the plan was neither new nor secret, but rather an extrapolation of last week's call by Dominique de Villepin, its foreign minister, for extra inspectors backed by spy planes.

The transatlantic mood was ugly even before news of the plan emerged. On Saturday Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, clashed publicly with Joschka Fischer, Germany's Green foreign minister, when both men were attending an international security conference in Munich.

Mr Rumsfeld, a leading US hawk, said it was not surprising if public opinion in Germany and France was opposed to war in Iraq if their governments were.

Mr Fischer lashed back:"You have to make the case in a democracy. Excuse me, I'm not convinced."

etc etc

[Nightshadeplus]

At 2/10/03 11:41 AM, IraqNOphobiA wrote: Is it really time for war(as the US and UK claim) or should we wait until all diplomatic efforts are exhausted?

I'm a dove on the issue so I believe that the latter should be done. If UN peacekeepers can actually help in assisting the inspections and more spy-planes can be used to cover every centimeter of Iraq, this might be a better idea of forcing Saddam to disarm completely without having the US to invade.

[TheKingPin]

A peacekeeping force is always better that a war!
We'll see who agrees with me tomorrow during the world wide demostration against the war!

[TheEvilOne]

Argh. The French never cease to piss me off. What part of Resolution 1441 don't they understand? They can triple the number of inspectors, they can use the U2 planes, they can do whatever they want, but the inspectors aren't there to find the weapons, they are there for Iraq to SHOW them the weapons. I fully agree with the President's statement that Iraq has weeks, not months. If France vetos a UN resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq, then I say we do this without the UN. We don't need France's blessing, and we certainly don't need their military assistance. We have a sizable number of allies ready to provide support.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 2/14/03 04:06 PM, TheEvilOne wrote: We have a sizable number of allies ready to provide support.

Damn right! The UK and ....... like ..... um ..... Spain ... and ...... um Poland!

Good thing you have the Poles on your side!

Hahahahaha!

[Perseph0ne6]

I certainly understand the desire to preserve peace as long as possible. I have several friends in the military right now, one of whom I consider to be my little brother and all of which are serving in active duty.

... however... we ceratainly can't make the same mistake we did in WII ... letting a pyschopathic tyrant get away with a little more and a little more, giving him one more chance and another and another.

I do think we would be acting too hastely if we went to war with Iraq now. I would like to see us act with the UN instead of on our own, and with more world support in general.

Why the hell isn't the focous being put on North Korea??

"The smoking gun inspectors have been looking to justify an attack on Iraq has been found,ufortunately its in North Korea." (paraphrase of quote by John Stewart of the Daily Show)

[JMHX]

Damn right! The UK and ....... like ..... um ..... Spain ... and ...... um Poland!

Good thing you have the Poles on your side!

The Poles? We've got this one in the bag! I'm surprised Hussein hasn't just stepped down at the thought of them coming through!

[kremlorn]

Un inspectors arent going to find anything at all. Hussein has had 12 years to prcatice moving his weapons and hiding them so that we wont find them. THe best solution would be to invade Iraq and and expose the weapons to the French and Germans.

These two countries have the complete oposite view from Bush not because they are anti-war, but because they are in it for the oil. They claim that Bush is fighting the war for oil, but in reality they import the most Iraqi oil. Any change in regime would be detrimental to them and that is why they are opposing it.

[TheEvilOne]

At 2/14/03 08:40 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote:

At 2/14/03 04:06 PM, TheEvilOne wrote: We have a sizable number of allies ready to provide support.

Damn right! The UK and ....... like ..... um ..... Spain ... and ...... um Poland!

Good thing you have the Poles on your side!

Hahahahaha!

Last I counted, we had 18 European nations ready to support us. Some may not be exactly thought of as great military powers, but every little bit helps. Even with American and British troops making up the bulk of the force, we should be victorious.

That, of course, is speaking from a strategic standpoint. From the standpoint of international opinion, there are those who say that the US shouldn't act alone, but we aren't exactly "acting alone", are we?

[JMHX]

At 2/17/03 07:33 PM, kremlorn wrote: Un inspectors arent going to find anything at all. Hussein has had 12 years to prcatice moving his weapons and hiding them so that we wont find them. THe best solution would be to invade Iraq and and expose the weapons to the French and Germans.

And where are they? They being the weapons that Saddam has hidden so well that fleets of United Nations inspectors have found only remnants of weapons destroyed from the last Gulf War? Just a question. I don't see how a bunch of soldiers could locate what people trained in the subject can't. Don't say invasion, either. Either Saddam's going to light them off during the invasion, or they're not there, or he's hidden them in another nation.

[UnderWater]

At 2/15/03 01:48 PM, Perseph0ne6 wrote:

Why the hell isn't the focous being put on North Korea??

That's the just in case scenario. If the French and Germans keep protesting against a war, and the inspectors cannot find really convincing evidence, America can always concentrate on N-Korea. Gotta do something to busy yourself with while the say 20% of your population is getting ritcher and the other 80 gets poorer!

[kremlorn]

At 2/18/03 11:08 AM, UnderWater wrote:

At 2/15/03 01:48 PM, Perseph0ne6 wrote:

Why the hell isn't the focous being put on North Korea??

That's the just in case scenario. If the French and Germans keep protesting against a war, and the inspectors cannot find really convincing evidence, America can always concentrate on N-Korea. Gotta do something to busy yourself with while the say 20% of your population is getting ritcher and the other 80 gets poorer!

Too bad there are only 200 inspectors. These "inspectors" are far too few in number to find anything. Iraq has alot of territory where they can hide their weapons and the inspectors cant be everywhere at once. By going into Iraq the soldiers will be able to cover that territory and prevent the weapons from being hidden any further. And if Saddam does decide to use them, then France and Germany will feel stupid for backing him. Then everyone goes after Saddam and he is screwed.

[NEMESiSZ]

War is the only reasonable solution, the inspectors are just waiting the world's time.