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More bullshit conjecture from you, Penal. I suppose just spewing shit is all you can do when you're not a logical thinker.

Would you care to demonstrate how I'm not a logical thinker?

The only reason you're saying that is because I constantly make reference to logic, so you're trying to aggrivate me(and cover up your own lack of logic) by making it seem like I'm illogical.

Most neo-cons are vicious little trolls at heart.

That's hilarious. In China 1 out of 10 soldiers get a gun. Making up bullshit is fun, eh Penal?

Even the Pentagon seems to believe they could be a threat - http://www.weeklysta..ent/Public/Articles/

Though a lot of that is to justify their current programs.

Not to mention how densely populated China is, so even with their current lower level of technology(which is rapidly rising) their military is certainly going to be sizable.

Anyway, most of the world(apart from the US in China) are moving towards a state where "Oh boy I can kill more people than you with my big army" isn't seen as a positive thing. Try again.

[quote]For one, I didn't blame socialism. I blame psuedo-socialist programs that don't help anyone and keep people enslaved to the government's whim. As to the US failing the most economical: I think you're full of shit and so does this website. (I did something you never do, provide a source for my points.) :)[/quote]

Interestingly, an American website.

Here's a better source for you -

http://mwhodges.home..at-debt/debt-nat.htm

"Last year debt increased $3.5 Trillion, 5 times more than GDP.
Household debt soared 12%."

Nice economy you have there. Maybe if you'd put people before numbers it wouldn't have happened.

What is living proof? All socialism can do is steal from the rich and middle class and suck crack-addict's dick.

How is it "stealing", exactly? Unless you can somehow demonstrate how some people deserve to be earning thousands of times more than others for doing around the same amount of work, I'd like to hear this. Sweden has a good balance between the benefits of capitalism and socialism, and hopefully will one day be a true socialist state for the most part.

You do realsie that using ridiculous emotionally weighting terms makes you lok as ridiculous as the worst "anti-piracy" people?

More capitalism means more financial freedoms for everyone.

For the people that have a specific set of skills others might not be naturally disposed to, the lucky, and the inheritors. And those willing to entirely screw over others. Most people do not benefit from capitalism.

So? Some human life is worth less than others. While some human lives are worthless altogether.

Congratulations for invalidating your argument by admitting you DO care more about ideals than people. Ideals should be built on people, not the other way aroudn.

Since when is reason and logic barbaric? The only reason you advocate socialism is because of your own emotions.

How is putting ideals ebfore people reason and logic, exactly?

The only reason I advocate socialism is because it's the only way anythign can really move forward. Communism is pretty much impossible and capitalism will NEVER solve poverty or the concept of dead end jobs since it relies on them to exist.

Also - you just caught yourself out there. Emotions and logic do not contradict, this is somewhat of a "Vulcan" fallacy. To determine what's best for humans, you have to take into account their emotions since they define whether they're in a positive or negative state. Once again, you fail.

You still fail to tell me how our influence is dwindling. We still have a say in the UN, and our policies effect the world so our voice does not fall on deaf ears. We have not gained or lost any influence.

Of course you've lost influence. How many countries, for example, would back you up in any decision regarding foreign policy these days?

What the US does effects the world, as I already stated. So our actions taken very seriously. Are you nothing but a bunch of conjecture?

Currently most of the world thinks the US is a bunch of morons. The only reason we take you seriously on occasion is your ability to make an almighty mess of things, as I said earlier.

Petroleum isn't the only resource.

But it's certainly one, and you missed the joke I was making.

There are better positioned countries than the US.

I truly wish you'd give a link or evidence for once in your life.

Most of the time I'm the only one that does so in an argument. In fact, in most gay marriage arguments, I'm probably the ONLY one that does so. And look here, I provided some in this post! Some of your statements are just so inherently illogical it's hard to find a resource that you'll even accept.

Can't say I'm homophobic, but I am a tough guy.

I said bornerline homophobic, because it's pretty obvious you're not too secure in your sexuality.

Well... Im from Sweden, but i dont hate America.

At 6/6/06 10:11 PM, ManosAriba wrote: I would like ligitimate reason for generally reason for hating the United States.

You make the mistake of thinking people have legitimate reasons for hating the United States.

At 6/24/06 08:54 AM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: Would you care to demonstrate how I'm not a logical thinker?

Most neo-cons are vicious little trolls at heart.

You just proved him right yourself. No one with half a brain could believe such a broad generalization like that.

I suppose now you're going to insist that it's true, w/o provided any real proof.

Whenever someone makes a generalization, whether it be that blacks steal, asians are smart, white people can't dance, or liberals kill babies, I expect them to prove how, exactly.

Yeah and most of the foreigners are from countries where everybody there hates us, because they're a country whose ass we kicked in a war. Except for France. They just hate us because we hate them

You are one ignorant bastard,how bout vietnam or Korea,you had your asses kicked by rebels who used bolt action rifles(except in vietnam) with no armour,air or naval support and most people think that the americans will never win in Iraq

China is a very different thing. Behold, for your children shall belong and serve China, and anyone in disagreement with China shall be considered a traitor, murderer, terrorist and neonazi!

r, because the Chineese nation has Nukes, a Million-man army, and their economy's taking off like a goddamn rocket. And they're a facist state.

You got some facts right,but seriously,ure still pretty ignorant,here is some info for you 1.we are not facist 2.we do not consider people in disagreement with China a traitor, murderer, terrorist and neonazi,you americans think your so high and mighty and you kick ass,you guys seriously need a wake-up call

At 6/10/06 09:31 PM, Goliath- wrote:

Here we have another american asshole who doesnt know shit

That's hilarious. In China 1 out of 10 soldiers get a gun. Making up bullshit is fun, eh Penal?

,you are one ignorant sunuvabitch,have you even seen the chinese military,i live in hongknog,i've been inside a chinese military base,all troops are armed with a new type 95 assault rifle,we have unmaned drones that cant be detected by american radars,we have new fighter/bombers that are faster than F-18s and most fighters that the US use except for the F-22,we have a state-of-the-art navy three times bigger than the US ,and Mobile Nuke Silos,and in august,2005 china unveiled a new smg that is proven to be superior to all Smgs used by police and SWAT forces in America and much more that i wont state here.

At 6/6/06 10:13 PM, colonelpepper wrote: Hell yea america kicks ass!

You've found your reason.

Back on topic:

When the world started, the middle east was center of everything and had all of the technology. Now, it's America that has everything, so they're jealous.

At 6/24/06 10:48 AM, MyIqis0 wrote: You are one ignorant bastard,how bout vietnam or Korea,you had your asses kicked by rebels

Did you fail history? Or are just classes where you are from biased.

The US never really lost the war, nor did we ever get our asses kicked. We pulled out because there was to much tension and resistence at home and the war wasnt worth it.

most people think that the americans will never win in Iraq

The war lasted like three weeks, I am pretty sure we won.

At 6/24/06 11:02 AM, MyIqis0 wrote: Here we have another american asshole who doesnt know shit

Comeing from a guy who doesnt even know that the war is over in Iraq, I wouldnt be talking if I were you.

At 6/24/06 10:48 AM, MyIqis0 wrote:

You are one ignorant bastard,how bout vietnam or Korea,you had your asses kicked by rebels who used bolt action rifles(except in vietnam) with no armour,air or naval support and most people think that the americans will never win in Iraq

Well, you assume that we were just fighting the vietnamese, and koreans in both wars, they were funded by the Chinese and in Korea, the Chinese sent troops, and it was a stalemate in Korea, and we killed a million North Koreans, and lost about 50K troops, I wouldn't consider "getting our asses kicked", we almost nuked them (China).

At 6/24/06 01:07 PM, Goliath- wrote: The US never really lost the war, nor did we ever get our asses kicked. We pulled out because there was to much tension and resistence at home and the war wasnt worth it.

No, America's goal in Vietnam was to prevent the country from becoming communist. They did become Communist, so America lost. Simple as that.

the war is over in Iraq

LOL

Some americans are good, some make me wish murder was legal. Plus they're standard of sitcoms make me turn to terrorism... not that i'm insiting this sort of behaviour >.>

At 6/24/06 02:25 PM, Tal-con wrote: No, America's goal in Vietnam was to prevent the country from becoming communist. They did become Communist, so America lost. Simple as that.

There is a huge diference in being defeated and just leaving. We left Vietnam. The cost outweighed the benefit. We could have stayed and dragged it out and kept it going untill we won, but we didn't feel the end result would warrent that, so we left. We were not beaten. Read a book.

At 6/24/06 02:25 PM, Tal-con wrote: No, America's goal in Vietnam was to prevent the country from becoming communist. They did become Communist, so America lost. Simple as that.

I wasnt alive during vietnam, so naturally I dont know much about it.

What I do know, is that militarily we didnt lose. We pulled out, which could be considered losing, but we didnt get defeated.

LOL

Ever heard of an occupation?

Whenever someone makes a generalization, whether it be that blacks steal, asians are smart, white people can't dance, or liberals kill babies, I expect them to prove how, exactly.

Nearly all the neo-cons on this board use those kind of methods. Feigning ignorance just so people have to "prove" something that's happening and is perfectly observable is nonsensical.

Penal, you're always flaming conservatives on these forums,
and I think most of what you say is unjustified.

I remember the time you called me a fucking idiot, twice in the same topic.

I've got news for you, Penal. I am not a fucking idiot, and even if I were, you still fail to acknowledge how I've gone out of my way to be kind and understanding towards you.

I'm not MoralLibertarian, but you said I was exactly like him.
I've chatted with MoralLibertarian on AIM. we agree on some things, but not all things.
We certainly aren't cut from the same cloth, but, he doesn't hold it against me when we have a disagreement. He doesn't take it personally when we don't see eye to eye on a certain issue. You do, and that is unfortunate. Please respect me in debates, and I'll try to return the favor.

You're wrong about neo-cons being trolls. I consider myself a neo-con, I tilt towards the right on many issues, but, I try to reach an understanding in an argument. I try to find a way to respect other people.

This is besides the point, but I've left you three private messages.
You never responded to any of them. Where's the love, Penal?

T_T

At 6/24/06 05:13 PM, Goliath- wrote: What I do know, is that militarily we didnt lose. We pulled out, which could be considered losing, but we didnt get defeated.

America's goal in Vietnam failed. Therefore, we failed.

LOL

Ever heard of an occupation?

I would consider daily IED explosions more than just occupation. There are American troops stationed in South Korea. You could consider this an "occupation", but that's not war. If you think just because the president says it's over, that it's over, then you're horribly, miserably wrong. Do not fool yourselves into thinking the war in Iraq (which is what many politicians refer to it as) is anythign short of a war.

At 6/24/06 04:59 PM, zendahl wrote:

Read a book.

You think I don't darn well know what happened in Vietnam? I guess you don't how to connect dots. Let me exaplain this again:

America's goal in Vietnam was to prevent one half from becoming communist. While the fact that America left Vietnam does not mean we lost, the end result was the country becoming communist. Our goal had flopped, so America lost. Period. The end.

I hate it when people that you know are wrong insult you anyway as to give their argument some sort of weak backbone.

At 6/24/06 06:55 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

Whenever someone makes a generalization, whether it be that blacks steal, asians are smart, white people can't dance, or liberals kill babies, I expect them to prove how, exactly.

Nearly all the neo-cons on this board use those kind of methods.

That in itself is another broad general. Thank you once again for proving JadedSoB right.

Feigning ignorance just so people have to "prove" something that's happening and is perfectly observable is nonsensical.

The only observable ignorance I see on this board is coming from you. Telling me all neo-cons do this, and no liberals do this, does not give backbone to your argument, it shows you to be an ignorant tard.

At 6/24/06 10:45 PM, Tal-con wrote: America's goal in Vietnam failed. Therefore, we failed.

If only it were that simple.

I would consider daily IED explosions more than just occupation.

Its certainly not a war, its rebel resistance.

There are American troops stationed in South Korea. You could consider this an "occupation", but that's not war.
What a coincidence, we have soldiers in Iraq.

If you think just because the president says it's over, that it's over, then you're horribly, miserably wrong.

Its pretty obvious when we have our troops stationed in Iraq. Its a resistance, the invasion is over and we won.

Revel in winning the war, and suffer losing the peace.

At 6/24/06 10:45 PM, Tal-con wrote: America's goal in Vietnam was to prevent one half from becoming communist. While the fact that America left Vietnam does not mean we lost, the end result was the country becoming communist. Our goal had flopped, so America lost. Period. The end.

Failing to meet a goal that you tryed to reach, and deciding that that goal isn't what you want after all are two diferent things entirely.

I did not mean to insult you, it didn't look as bad when I first wrote it, I'm sorry.

At 6/24/06 11:20 AM, MyIqis0 wrote:

That's hilarious. In China 1 out of 10 soldiers get a gun. Making up bullshit is fun, eh Penal?

,you are one ignorant sunuvabitch,have you even seen the chinese military,i live in hongknog,i've

Congratulation to proving to us all you're another witless dumbass. I can't emphasize "Making up shit is fun, eh Penal" enough. You sir, fail at life. Go kill yourself.

At 6/25/06 02:12 AM, zendahl wrote: Failing to meet a goal that you tryed to reach, and deciding that that goal isn't what you want after all are two diferent things entirely.

Oh the president wanted to accomplish the goal, but he pansied out (rightfully so, it was an unjust war to beign with), so we lost. You don't retreat and call it a victory. The enemy took over the land you were protecting - it's a loss.

I love America too, but I'm not going to convince myself my country is perfect and that we've never lost a war, since I know that's not true.

At 6/25/06 02:09 AM, Goliath- wrote:

At 6/24/06 10:45 PM, Tal-con wrote: America's goal in Vietnam failed. Therefore, we failed.

If only it were that simple.

It kinda is, really. In no way would I consider Vietnam a victory.

I would consider daily IED explosions more than just occupation.

Its certainly not a war, its rebel resistance.

That's just politicizing the word war. Bush refers to it as war, Congress refers to it as war. Ask nearly anyone else, and they'll refer to it as The war in Iraq, not the rebel resistance in Iraq.

There are American troops stationed in South Korea. You could consider this an "occupation", but that's not war.
What a coincidence, we have soldiers in Iraq.

Yeah, only difference is the troops in South Korea aren't fighting anyone.

If you think just because the president says it's over, that it's over, then you're horribly, miserably wrong.

Its pretty obvious when we have our troops stationed in Iraq. Its a resistance, the invasion is over and we won.

You know it's a war when the man who started it even refers to it as that, even though he declared major military operations over 3 years ago. Yeah, it's a war. My motto is if you can't discuss your logic to any random person on the street and not be laughed at, then you shouldn't take it here.

Yeah, don't be sorry. We're all assholes here on the Politics forum anyways.

=P

I'd say that America just annoys the shizzle (bbs THAT) out of the world, but most of the world dont HATE you.
The Insurgents hate you because you invaded heir country and killed 30000 innocent people then said 'Oh never mind, no nukes there after all'. Some religous types hate you because they generally hate western values or lack of them...but most of all....you're just so goddam annoying because you (or you're government) just assumes that everyone wants to be American, that you have the best democracy, that you are more free than the rest of the world. In fact most of the EU have a better democracy than America, patriot acts 1 and 2 destroy whatever claim of leading the way freedom wise that you used to have.

Having said that, when the shit hits the fan and a real enemy of freedom arrives, like nazi Germany or China in 20 years. We're still allies and while you might be a bunch of insensitive, arrogant, ignorant, xenophobic meddling hicks - at least for now you're still the good guys.

Well the Iraq war is over but the insurgence war begun has. *sorry I had to*

You see America is probably hiding something about Iraq and how good the insurgents really are because as soon as the occupation st in the suicide rate began to increase. 600 soldiers evacuated for suicidal depression. Wow impressive. I mean really it has to be alot worse than CNN shows us. I can just feel the pain of 19 and 21 year old marines who barely have hit manhood fighting men who fought the Russians at their peak and are familiar with the surroundings.

At 6/25/06 01:48 PM, Tal-con wrote: It kinda is, really. In no way would I consider Vietnam a victory.

We didnt win, but a failed objective isnt a ass kicked loss.

Ask nearly anyone else, and they'll refer to it as The war in Iraq, not the rebel resistance in Iraq.

Who are we fighting? The Iraqi soldiers, or rebels.
Last time I heard, we were working with the Iraqi's.

Yeah, only difference is the troops in South Korea aren't fighting anyone.

The North Koreans are.

You know it's a war when the man who started it even refers to it as that, even though he declared major military operations over 3 years ago.

He kind of has to refer to it as a war. After the it was over we lost what? 2000 or more soldiers. Much more than the actually invasion, people wouldnt take him seriously if he said we lost 2000 soldiers in a resistance.

But then again who takes Bush serious anymore?

My motto is if you can't discuss your logic to any random person on the street and not be laughed at, then you shouldn't take it here.
Yeah, don't be sorry. We're all assholes here on the Politics forum anyways.

Random people on the street are generaly more polite then those of us in the politics section.