Dutch internal politics topic

[Tomsan]

So we in the Netherlands have a minority group (well soon not much of a minority anymore 'cause they are expanding at an ever accelerating rate) the Maroccans. They cause ALOT of trouble. Holland is a bit of a pussy country concerning the authority of the police, unlike america.
The problems the marrocan society are making are mostly comming from the younger marrocans (10-25). They for example they play football with the flowerwreaths we laid down on various places to remember WWII victims which we do in 4 may.

This is only one example I can name a thousands others. The fact is this group is resisting our morals and standards (as we know it in the netherlands) with an increasing strength. The criminality rate amoung the marrocans is extremely high. The woman are not allowed to work so they do not contribute to the dutch economie. The elderly males often do not have a job for they cannot speak dutch and spend most of there time in the mosk.
Now young marrocan boys have trouble finding a job in the netherlands, and this is ofcourse not helping there behaviour. They are refused at clubs etc. But I do understand the people in holland are fed up with the idiotic behaviour of the marrocans. We have tried to intergrate them but somehow they dont. There morals and values are to different from our own.

We had 2 major other ethnic groups that came to holland some years ago. the 'surinamers' and the 'indonesiers/ molukkers' in the beginning we also experienced some troubles but soon they were al intergrated and accepted. now a days they give us no more troubles then dutch rednecks do. So why did it work with them and not with the marrocans the goverment really tried..

I am fed up with the marrocans I live in a neighborhood filled with them and they disgust me.
The only way in which I see a solution is to harden society so that we can punish them more severe, but obviously this is not what I really want, they have to be stopped!!

NOW!!! you americans live in a country filled with ethnic groups, I want to now if you have any thoughts on how to work with this issue.
I also like dutch people to react.

PS I really am not a racist, just believe me. I have many foreign friends (no marrocans) and other ethic groups also 'hate' marrocans
it just got out of hand, racism in our nation is rising and I am sure it had everything to do with the marrocans

[Palioxis]

dont feel bad for saying this, cause I agree with you 100% (Im dutch aswel)
Reason why they cant speak dutch is simple, If I would goto France, and keep speaking dutch more then I speak french on a day, my french would suck just as bad.

same here

the marrocans speak their own language more then they speak dutch, this way they wil always keep their accent and wil never learn proper dutch. next to that the pathetic way they hide behind their religion(Islam) is making me angry, using it as an excuse for abusing girls etc. , giving the Islam in holland an extremely bad name. And then you have a gouverment who just like to see peace without a civil war, giving most of them what they want so they could feel at home (we have build special schools, mosques, they get monthly payment as they do not work out of normal tax, etc. etc.)

and when someone DOES stand up,. he gets shot by an extreme left guy(what a suprise, Pim Fortuyn, Theo van Gogh).

Also the way they always blaim it aall on racism, mocking with germans and Americans themself, calling names just as bad. Also funny how we may not mock with the Islam, but they may mock with the bible etc.

Im suprised they havent figured out why they are hated that bad
same as: why did the jews hate hitler/nazis in the WW2?

we gave them the chance, they abused it
the Asians who came to Holland, didnt get shit from us (arround 1950 and 1960), but they worked hard like we all had/have to, and they are now respected for it. They learned proper dutch, came here and started restaurants, or got other jobs and worked hard, and now it pays of. But it seems the marrocans want to see it the other way arround, we first need to give them price and then they wil earn it(or wont). wel great for them, but let them do that somewhere else.

Its time they learned that the Ground law, is above all religions. if your religion says you may abuse people(what I Highly DOUBT), ok, but not here, go somewhere where it is alloud, here you respect the Law, or suffer the price.

[MeSmashie]

I sympathize with you we have the same problem in the US. Only they don’t WANT to learn English and know they can force a weak and cowardly government to force the English speaking to learn their native language. I have a hard enough time with English I do NOT want to learn SPANISH!!! So, yes we feel your pain

[ERPMISTER]

At 5/10/06 11:20 AM, MeSmashie wrote: I sympathize with you we have the same problem in the US. Only they don’t WANT to learn English and know they can force a weak and cowardly government to force the English speaking to learn their native language. I have a hard enough time with English I do NOT want to learn SPANISH!!! So, yes we feel your pain

If the polticians eventually look at what has happened in other nations with immigration probelms, then congress will actually shut down the border and fix this illegal immigration problem!

[Guitarmy]

What I want to know is what the fuck gives Mexican Citisens the right to protest in our streets demanding American Citisenship for free? That is the most fucking rediculous thing I have EVER heard.

To the Dutch, America has a huge problem with poor minorities. Many of them don't work and ruin our cities. We have simply given up on social project, we've begun to just leave the grafitti because when we try to take it down some gang's drive by and shoot all the city workers. They then go home get ready and protest Welfare cuts, and blame it on racism religion anything they can.

[TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID]

i once made a tread about this but i was being flamed by everyone that reacted ("oncesopeasefullyland") but yes i do agree with you, but im afraid no one can't say this on television because it isn't political correct. I live in holland, and we have a national holliday called: bevrijdingsdag (liberation day) the fifth of may.
We used to celebrate the end of ww2 but now it is turned in somekind of hiphop fest
with extreme attention to discrimination and rascism... nobody talks about ww2 anymore accept for my grandparents. I walked around a "bevrijdingsfestival" and i haven't seen the word world war 2 once.
Maybe it isn't the cause of Marocans but it is a nice example of how multicultural society fucks up our culture.. and maybe it isn't even the work of other etnic groups but of ourselves, because we are afraid of hurting them by excluding THEIR CULTURE from our national holiday.

As for the marocans, they are whining that we don't accept them but they're swinging around the MAROCCAN flag, when a soccer player of the DUTCH youth team, who is accedently of marrocan origin scores. Not that it is a huge problem, it just makes me sad.

And they don't even wanna become dutchlike, (like is said about the Indonesians)
they just live together in their own neighbourhoods (which they call ghetto's, lol) and make it a 100% marocan hood.

Most of the marocan kids are too lazy to study which causes them to go to the lowest level of school. and they are the group with the highest truancy.
I am doing the highest level (gymnasium) and we only had one marocan person, and he was kicked out of school because of bad behavior, and his grades were too low.

Sometimes when a class contains only marocans, a marocan teacher speaks marocan instead of dutch.

And nobody says a word about it. It came on television once, but they got many angry letters saying that they were racist and discriminating.
we've got islamic schools where the teachers speak Arabic, and nobody says a word about it.

since when are Marocans considered a race?

[Tomsan]

So ok everyone recognizes the problem, but people from america.. you should have a better vieuw on this problem.. what is the goverment doing against the invasion of mexicans for example??

[Palioxis]

At 5/10/06 02:14 PM, lapis wrote:

At 5/10/06 11:55 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote:

We can't send them back as most of the ones who cause trouble were born here

If they were BORN here, and are so called FULL Dutch, how on earth did they get their SECOND paspoort, and be called: Dutch marrocans. many have 2 nationalities, but then they say they are dutch, and want to be treated like one, and thats ok with me, but then dump 1 of the 2 nationalities, either dutch or marroco, no reasson for them to keep both, they stil may have their religion and customs, but dont cry when your called a marrocan when you have a marrocans nationality, I think they shouldnt cry when they are not called/treated full dutch, if you cant speak proper dutch, and walk arround with a marrocans pasport, and above all Hate everything about the dutch.

and also, only 20% of the people who came here, were refugees, the rest DID came for wealth, understandable ofcourse, but you must adapt to the host(the dutch), not the other way arround. If you go sleeping over your friends house, are you gonna boss him arround what to do in his own house? ofcourse not, so the marrocans shouldnt either, they arent refugees, as there is absolute no war there. And those who did came in as refugees, made the agreement they would return to the country they came from when the conflicts within that country are resolved, those people need to stick to their agreements, as their own country needs their help to rebuild.

And sure they always say it are the minor groups of the foreigners, sure, its always a minor group, but 60% of all prisons do happen to that minor group. The BIGGEST group(The Dutch(autogtonen) only provides 40%, and the smaller Foreigners group the 60%, meaning the smaller group has in % more criminals then the Dutch. How can the minor foreigner group bring up so many criminals then?

[fli]

At 5/10/06 11:39 AM, Guitarmy wrote: What I want to know is what the fuck gives Mexican Citisens the right to protest in our streets demanding American Citisenship for free?

Since when did they protest for Citizenship?
The current protests are against current legislation against illegal immigrants that would virtually split up families.

That is the most fucking rediculous thing I have EVER heard.

Read what you just read--

To the Dutch, America has a huge problem with poor minorities. Many of them don't work and ruin our cities. We have simply given up on social project, we've begun to just leave the grafitti because when we try to take it down some gang's drive by and shoot all the city workers. They then go home get ready and protest Welfare cuts, and blame it on racism religion anything they can.

While Whitey bitches all day--
*eye rollie*

You don't think that there aren't White gangs?
That there isn't grafitti, drug use, and welfare abuse in "non-ethnic" groups?

Look at certain impoverished parts of the the South.

Yes, the US does have a problem with illegal immigrants.
It stared when they crossed the Occidental on a ship called the Mayflower and settled on this soil at the expense of the Native Americans...

It started when a bunch of illegal immigrant settlers who believed in Manifest Destiny and "annexed" (euphemism for 'steal') Texas and parts of Mexico.

[Tomsan]

At 5/11/06 05:47 AM, lapis wrote:

At 5/11/06 04:52 AM, Palioxis wrote:

Because the Moroccan government automatically gives a passport to children of emigrants, even if they're tenth generation migrants. "Nu kunnen Marokkaanse Nederlanders geen afstand doen van hun Marokkaanse nationaliteit, zelfs als ze dat willen ". Verdonk has had little success in negotiating with the Moroccan government, it's a problem but there's no point in bringing this up when trying to bash the Moroccan communtity. They can't make the decision about their two nationalities.

That is not true. your source is out of date (2004??). Marrocans can know choose one nationality if they like.

Until 1975, Turkish and Moroccan immigrants were offered Dutch citizenship if they lived here for two years and most agreed to this offer. They should be able to keep their culture as long as it's doesn't conflict with the law. Headscarfs are fine, but beating your wife is not.

When people say "it's a minor group" they probably intend to say that most Moroccan immigrants haven't violated the law. There are about 18,500 prisoners in the Netherlands and about 3,000,000 (first or second generation) immigrants. Even if 60% of the prisoners belong to some ethnic minority then we still have about 2,988,900 immigrants who aren't currently in prison.

There are relatively more migrants in prison than natives (or autochtonen), sure, probably due to a mixture of both cultural and social-economic reasons. But it's wrong to hold the entire group accountable for the actions of individuals.

Absolutely, and ofcourse I am not here to defend Palioxis for maybe he is somewhat to extreme, BUT the thing I am trying to highlight is that especially the Maroccan minority is causing alot of trouble in our society. We tried do help it by raseing special youth programs etc. but the fact is that they do not mix with the dutch unlike the indo's or the surinamers did. They are ofcourse allowed to keep their culture and customs, but at the same time I feel they also have to intergrate (more), meaning being able to talk dutch, know some dutch customs etc.

I want to give you an example: Yesterday our flat was invaded with little marrocan kids I am guessing 10 years old. I did some shit when I was ten, maybe I lit a fire in the bushes or put a turd on the road, I didnt really dare to do more and it didnt really even occur to me. The marrocans where molesting females!!! pissing in the lift and stairs and screaming like monkeys. That is a big difference with dutch kids or anyone else for that matter. Somehow the boys are in an advanced state of social degration.
and know my question is how come? this is not a new problem and it looks like we arent able to solve it without DRASTIC measures. I am only wondering what those measures should be

your argument about prisoners is useless, I understand it was a reaction at Palioxis but the main troubles that marrocans are giving us is not prison worthy (maybe short periodes only), which does not make it any less worse (nowadays you dont go to prison for much anymore).

And ofcourse there is the argument of generalisation. I know there are good marrocans people which try hard to blend in to intergrate and dont harm anyone. But thats not my point even if that group is much larger then the group that is ruineing it, you cannot just ignore the problems the marrocan group is causing.

My problem with them is that they are costing society alot of money with these pranks. they have a 'uitkering' rate of 30% you must admit thats alot. we are investing alot of money in rehabilitation programs etc. that is something I want to fix

I hope youll respond. :)

[Palioxis]

Ye sorry, I am abit extreme on this topic, I have a strong opinion on this subject (I think many does, in different ways ofcourse).

At 5/11/06 07:37 AM, Tomsan wrote: And ofcourse there is the argument of generalisation. I know there are good marrocans people which try hard to blend in to intergrate and dont harm anyone. But thats not my point even if that group is much larger then the group that is ruineing it, you cannot just ignore the problems the marrocan group is causing.

Hard not to generalize when gaining own experience, or when someone else gain negative experience with Marrocans. The more people get involt with these conflicts, the more people wil generalize.

also, very hard to find a solution for that group that is causing problems, maybe strenghten the laws? (harder punishments for crimes?)