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I heard a commercial on the radio this morning for a vacabulary product: "When you use the wrong words, people make assumptions about your background, your education, even your intelligence." A corny way to pimp your product, but it's true.

Shorbe:

You made several good points in your last post. I did understand what you meant about being able to purchase food, I was only being sarcastic. Sometimes I get too caught up in message boards. I apologize if i seemed rude or disrespectful during one of my posts. I usually try to maintain a certain level of respect to the people I am debating with.

I understand that grammar is important in obtaining a respectful job, yet I don't emphasize its importance quite as you do. I still believe that getting a job is more about skills than grammar. I don't think that one could acquire a job on grammar and good speech alone.

And about GWB... Out of the other candidates, who would you rather have up there? Al Gore, Ralph Nader, and Pat Buchannan are all just as bad as Dubya. I don't think any of them would have made good presidents. Maybe GWB and Cheney will get assassinated and someone better will take their place.

Silver: I don't think you made a lot of sense there. Sure you'll never know everything, and you'll always encounter people who know more than you, but if you really believe that, then how do you explain the fact that most rich people are well educated, and most try to provide their children with education? Why do you think Jews and Asians do so well? They're not stupid. They know the way to rise two whole socio-economic classes in a generation is through education.

Shorbe:
The rich, they don't know 'life' just a silver spoon. sense make not do I , care not do I? Why are most rich people educated, hell if I kno or if I care. Chance is something you can't change no matter how much of an edge someone has. In an Olympic bicycle race it's not the one with the best bike, but the one who tries. Who doesn't depend on money. Am I lying to myself? Probably, currency doesn't ruin the world. It's the people with to much currency who ruin the world. Frankly Shorbe, I don't care if you think I make a lot of sense.

At 5/12/01 09:25 PM, kurten wrote: You have an extremely ignorant attitude, Tyrant. In Canada, you can speak French or English. In some Asian countries there are dozens of languages spoken in just a few square miles. There was a National Geographic article about a country where there were 42 national languages. That means every official document has to be translated into those languages.

Your problem stems from your inability to speak more than one language fluently. Quit blaming the immigrants for your ignorance.

Also, you will not find a single immigrant who go back to his/her home country simply because they can't speak English. This country was founded by immigrants. If they went back to their home country they would starve, and subsequently, their children would starve.

When you can tell me that you would starve a child to death because he/she can't speak English, I'll go ahead and support your English-only law.

You might try looking at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty.

He has a point that many language barriers can cause severe problems. I agree that learning multiple languages is important necessity in this day and age. However, when I visit another country I do not expect an English alternative to be given. I also respect the different laws of the country I am visiting. In order for an individual to obtain a driver's license in America, they would need to understand english in order to read the road signs, to understand the instructors, and to take the test itself. The only other option would be driving without a license and understanding of the laws. It would be unrealistic to provide language alternative for every non english speaking person who enters the state.

Shorbe:
The rich, they don't know 'life' just a silver spoon. sense make not do I , care not do I? Why are most rich people educated, hell if I kno or if I care. Chance is something you can't change no matter how much of an edge someone has. In an Olympic bicycle race it's not the one with the best bike, but the one who tries. Who doesn't depend on money. Am I lying to myself? Probably, currency doesn't ruin the world. It's the people with to much currency who ruin the world. Frankly Shorbe, I don't care if you think I make a lot of sense.

Since I'm a lazy git I am yet to have read Shorbes post, but Silver I do think that articulation is a major part of intellectualism, however spelling is not :P(teehee)

:In fact, I would go as far as to say that parents who don't send their kids to private schools or homeschool them (in other words, let the government educate them) are completely irresponsible and reprehensible. It's like playing Russian Roulette. It's a form of child abuse.

I'm not saying that everyone in the government system turns out bad. Likewise, I am not saying everyone else succeeds. What I am talking about is probabilities or likelihoods. It's all about getting an edge.

Not giving your child an edge child abuse? I think thats a bit of an exageration. Now my parents could have afforded to send me to private school, but they didn't, why? Because (I know this is a sterotype) they didn't want the snobbery that comes along with it. Sure private schools may get the best results but they start off with students that have had like pre nursery school and have had tutors.

Sure, as you point out, people get jobs through skills.

People get skills through jobs.

Slizor

At 5/18/01 11:30 AM, Slizor wrote:

In fact, I would go as far as to say that parents who don't send their kids to private schools or homeschool them (in other words, let the government educate them) are completely irresponsible and reprehensible. It's like playing Russian Roulette. It's a form of child abuse.

~~ I've been informed that many of the students who attend the private schools in my location are either spoiled brats and junior drug addicts. Straight for the horse's mouth. As far as Homeschooling, I enjoyed doing that far more than attending public school. Of course, that also costs money. I recall paying around 400 dollars to pay for the proper reading materials. You need to get in touch with the state, and whatever homeschooling program you enroll in needs to examine what courses are needed in order for you to graduate.

Hey don't quote me as saying that!
I know a fair few drug addicts at my state school :)

tyrant: Don't worry about being disrespectful. I can take it as well as I can give it.

Of course someone wouldn't get a job on their English skills alone, but it would make a big difference. That's why, shocking as it might be, I wouldn't be likely to hire anyone from the ghetto (or a trailer park) for an important position.

I would have had Harry Browne up there. He would kick some arse in a responsible, logical and intelligent way.

Silver: Of course there is more than chance. Having the edge makes a big difference. That's why in so many fields, so many people invest so much money into gaining the edge.

Furthermore, how do you know rich people don't know life, or only know a silver spoon? How do you know they haven't worked hard for it? So what if they haven't anyway? They don't owe anyone anything. No one does.

Slizor: I still stand firm on the belief that to deny your children a good education is child abuse. You would consider malnutrition or starving of the body child abuse, so why not of the mind also?

Serendipity: The fact that the state controls homeschooling is stupid and contradictory anyway. It's especially stupid in the USA, where the 9th and 10th ammendments to the constitution prohibit the state having influence or say in ANY form of education. The US government has not right to even have an education system. It's interesting that the US government is so opposed to monopolies (such as Microsoft), yet has no problem with being not only hypocritical, but unconstitutional, by running a monopoly on education, welfare, healthcare, taxation, and other things.

Serendipity. Ultimately, many private school kids may be fuck ups, but overall, the numbers speak for themselves. There is a strong correlation between private education and success in most areas of society.

shorbe

Pardon my typo.

Also, when I say don't owe anyone anything, I refer to adults. Adults have an obligation to minors, but not to other adults, save the obligation not to hurt them.

shorbe

Slizor: I still stand firm on the belief that to deny your children a good education is child abuse. You would consider malnutrition or starving of the body child abuse, so why not of the mind also?

There are many more ways to stimulate a childs mind than private school

Silver: Of course there is more than chance. Having the edge makes a big difference. That's why in so many fields, so many people invest so much money into gaining the edge.

Furthermore, how do you know rich people don't know life, or only know a silver spoon? How do you know they haven't worked hard for it? So what if they haven't anyway? They don't owe anyone anything. No one does.

They might know life. What about those who do work hard, and don't end up rich? Having an edge doesn't make as big of a difference as you make it out. I doubt having an edge can make things easier.

The way I see it is, if I can say something and you comprehend it and can come up with a reply that is relevant and I can comprehend it, then it doesn't matter how your grammar is. Or your dialect. Or whatever.

English is a fairly easy language to learn since there is very little verb conjugation (I said, You said, He/She/It said, We said, They said, etc.) so I don't see why it's such a problem for foreigners to learn.

It doesn't matter if they can't spell words correctly. If I can understand them and they can understand me, it's American English and they're good to go.

TFX: You couldn't be more wrong about English being an easy language to learn. Unlike most languages, it breaks grammatical rules, spelling rules, and speech rules left and right.

Furthermore, if we look at the verbs conjugations you mentioned, you're also wrong. Excluding such things as the conditional (if I were you, I wish I were you, etc) and other weird cases, and sticking to regular verbs only in the first person, we see there are twelve ways to conjugate every verb (so in other words, there are seventy two ways to conjugate every verb overall, and that's just for the past, present and future tenses).

They are as follows (using the verb to walk):

Simple past- I walked.
Past continuous- I was walking.
Present perfect- I had walked.
Past perfect continuous- I had been walking.

Simple present- I walk.
Present continuous- I am walking.
Present perfect- I have walked.
Present perfect continuous- I have been walking.

Simple future- I will walk.
Future continuous- I will be walking.
Future perfect- I will have walked.
Future perfect continuous- I will have been walking.

Look at the one in particular. Imagine trying to learn that for the first time!

Many of these have very similar meanings that are only different in subtle ways. For those coming from a language that doesn't get so pedantic about tense, verb conjugation is actually one of the hardest things to learn in English.

shorbe

Ack! That's what happens when you rewrite something and don't proof read it. I meant look at the last one...

shorbe

At 5/22/01 10:43 AM, shorbe wrote: edited for space

shorbe

Yes, but your basing that on extremely formal english. I doubt that any of us use any of those tenses except for the most basic in our day-to-day communication. No one goes around saying 'I am walking' or 'I had been walking'. Those who study at Harvard, are foreign on exchange program (like students), or have to speak like they're worth a trillion dollars may use a couple more of those tenses, but if a person stumbling over the border can understand the fundamentals, then I don't understand what the big deal is.

Sheesh.

TFX: Actually, the present continuous is probably one of the most common in English.

eg.

What are you doing?

I am watching television.

There can be examples given for each that people would commonly use.

Even those aside, and they're a lot more important than you realise (listen to newly arrived Asian immigrants. Because Asian languages don't form tenses in the way we do in English, they have real problems, and their verbs sound pretty bizarre at times), verbs are still incredibly complex in English.

Look at conjugating simple present.

How many times (usually from foreigners, but not always) have you heard someone say "he play basketball" or some other such incorrect conjugation?

Unlike some languages, English breaks just about every grammatical rule at one time or another. Look at the irregular verbs for instance.

How many times have you heard someone say "I catched the ball?"

I've heard it plenty of times.

The point is that whether it's formal English or not is irrelevant. You're still going to sound like an ill-bred hick if you can't conjugate verbs correctly. Alternatively, someone stumbling over the border is going to be recognised as such immediately for poor English, and will not be in line for a great job.

shorbe

Allow me to say something while you're giving complete strangers a gammar lesson; "Monpelier, Vermont is the only United States capitol that doesn't have a McDonalds." Josh Black...

At 5/25/01 10:28 PM, SilverTofu wrote: Allow me to say something while you're giving complete strangers a gammar lesson; "Monpelier, Vermont is the only United States capitol that doesn't have a McDonalds." Josh Black...

it's "Montpelier", and "capital"

Proper grammar is essential to job success. I would not hire an applicant if they were unable to speak the English language clearly and professionally. Grammatical mistakes occur, but there is a limit to the amount of acceptable mistakes. Proper grammar is not necessarily representative of a persons educational background, a person from a poor background has the capability to speak properly, if they so choose, but you rarely find a person from a middle-class to upper-class background speaking poorly.

One thing I often found confusing: answering the telephone. Do you want to say "This is she" which is grammatically correct, but will make your friends laugh? Or should you say "This is her" which professionals would frown on?

I always say "This is Andrea." Easier, and it gives me a place to correct mispronounciations. (I'm sure I've spelled that wrong!)

I say "hi" wait for them to tell me who they want, then shout at the person until they come.

At 5/25/01 10:28 PM, SilverTofu wrote: Allow me to say something while you're giving complete strangers a gammar lesson; "Monpelier, Vermont is the only United States capitol that doesn't have a McDonalds." Josh Black...

A state capital without a McDonalds...? I never thought such a place exisited!

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, Tyrant_Nero wrote: Today in my World Geography class, we got into a discussion about foreigners and immigrants. Apparently, my teacher believes that someone from another country should not have to know how to speak English to become a citizen. Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you. There was an incident concerning a foreigner and several police officers. The foreigner was told to freeze, and keep his hands up. Not understanding what they said, he walked away. They yelled at him again, and he turned around, then reached near his coat. He was shot and killed because of this, thinking he was reaching for a weapon. His family is currently trying to take this to court. How stupid!!! If you want to be a member of a country/organization/club, I think that there are certain things you need to know. And to be a legal citizen, you should be able to speak the language. Does anybody agree with me?

YOU SHOULD BE KILLED YOU FUCKING DUMBASS. JUST BECUASE YOU SPEAK ENGLISH DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERY AMERICAN DOES. THERE IS NO OFFICAL LANGAUGE OF AMERICA. WERE A MELTING POT. STRENGTH THROUGH DIVERSITY NOT ASSIMILATION. I WANT TO KILL YOU.

At 6/14/01 09:21 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, Tyrant_Nero wrote: Today in my World Geography class, we got into a discussion about foreigners and immigrants. Apparently, my teacher believes that someone from another country should not have to know how to speak English to become a citizen. Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you. There was an incident concerning a foreigner and several police officers. The foreigner was told to freeze, and keep his hands up. Not understanding what they said, he walked away. They yelled at him again, and he turned around, then reached near his coat. He was shot and killed because of this, thinking he was reaching for a weapon. His family is currently trying to take this to court. How stupid!!! If you want to be a member of a country/organization/club, I think that there are certain things you need to know. And to be a legal citizen, you should be able to speak the language. Does anybody agree with me?

YOU SHOULD BE KILLED YOU FUCKING DUMBASS. JUST BECUASE YOU SPEAK ENGLISH DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERY AMERICAN DOES. THERE IS NO OFFICAL LANGAUGE OF AMERICA. WERE A MELTING POT. STRENGTH THROUGH DIVERSITY NOT ASSIMILATION. I WANT TO KILL YOU.

We are not a melting pot, we are a tossed salad.
A melting pot actually would be the assimilation you speak of.
We all have different cultures and identities, but we, like the tossed salad, are all bound together as equal people, as Americans. I may be a tomato, you a lettuce leaf, someone else, a crouton, but we are all part of the salad.

At 6/14/01 09:26 AM, KaneOfNod wrote:

At 6/14/01 09:21 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, Tyrant_Nero wrote: Today in my World Geography class, we got into a discussion about foreigners and immigrants. Apparently, my teacher believes that someone from another country should not have to know how to speak English to become a citizen. Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you. There was an incident concerning a foreigner and several police officers. The foreigner was told to freeze, and keep his hands up. Not understanding what they said, he walked away. They yelled at him again, and he turned around, then reached near his coat. He was shot and killed because of this, thinking he was reaching for a weapon. His family is currently trying to take this to court. How stupid!!! If you want to be a member of a country/organization/club, I think that there are certain things you need to know. And to be a legal citizen, you should be able to speak the language. Does anybody agree with me?

YOU SHOULD BE KILLED YOU FUCKING DUMBASS. JUST BECUASE YOU SPEAK ENGLISH DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERY AMERICAN DOES. THERE IS NO OFFICAL LANGAUGE OF AMERICA. WERE A MELTING POT. STRENGTH THROUGH DIVERSITY NOT ASSIMILATION. I WANT TO KILL YOU.

We are not a melting pot, we are a tossed salad.
A melting pot actually would be the assimilation you speak of.
We all have different cultures and identities, but we, like the tossed salad, are all bound together as equal people, as Americans. I may be a tomato, you a lettuce leaf, someone else, a crouton, but we are all part of the salad.

I've Disagreed with you on every single thing you've ever said up to this, and I'm surprised you take this postion. I totally agree compelty, you be a tomatoe and I'll be onion. sure we hate each other but when we get down too it were fighting for the same thing... to be tasty!

YOU SHOULD BE KILLED YOU FUCKING DUMBASS. JUST BECUASE YOU SPEAK ENGLISH DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERY AMERICAN DOES. THERE IS NO OFFICAL LANGAUGE OF AMERICA. WERE A MELTING POT. STRENGTH THROUGH DIVERSITY NOT ASSIMILATION. I WANT TO KILL YOU.

Let me get this straight. You condemn me to death because my opinion. Oh yeah! You're a cool guy! Plus we are not a melting pot, it is more of a tossed salad. I really don't think you would find it convinient to walk into a resteraunt and try to place your order, and nobody working there speaks english, that you would have no problem with this? This America, americans speak AMERICAN. Not Spanish, French, Portugese, Chinese, Russian, or any other language.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with diversity or learning other languages. I'm saying that to be a legal citizen, to make life easier on everybody else, a foreigner needs to be able to speak american. I don't really care what nationality anybody is. I don't care if they know 20 languages or whatever. I'm just saying to be a LEGAL citizen of a country, they must speak the LANGUAGE of the country.

I find it rather humorous that your inability to use your words and assemble intelligable sentences has made you yell and threaten my life. I feel sorry for you. You just can't seem to realize that people have different opinions, and that you should respect them.

At 6/14/01 12:14 PM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

YOU SHOULD BE KILLED YOU FUCKING DUMBASS. JUST BECUASE YOU SPEAK ENGLISH DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERY AMERICAN DOES. THERE IS NO OFFICAL LANGAUGE OF AMERICA. WERE A MELTING POT. STRENGTH THROUGH DIVERSITY NOT ASSIMILATION. I WANT TO KILL YOU.

Let me get this straight. You condemn me to death because my opinion. Oh yeah! You're a cool guy! Plus we are not a melting pot, it is more of a tossed salad. I really don't think you would find it convinient to walk into a resteraunt and try to place your order, and nobody working there speaks english, that you would have no problem with this? This America, americans speak AMERICAN. Not Spanish, French, Portugese, Chinese, Russian, or any other language.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with diversity or learning other languages. I'm saying that to be a legal citizen, to make life easier on everybody else, a foreigner needs to be able to speak american. I don't really care what nationality anybody is. I don't care if they know 20 languages or whatever. I'm just saying to be a LEGAL citizen of a country, they must speak the LANGUAGE of the country.

I find it rather humorous that your inability to use your words and assemble intelligable sentences has made you yell and threaten my life. I feel sorry for you. You just can't seem to realize that people have different opinions, and that you should respect them.

I do respect people with other opinions! of course I do! Just not when their idiots like you. America Doesn't have a set language, And assimilating people into one culture isn't american, it's nazi, so have fun with your little nazi buddies, But I'm in support of the constitution.

At 6/14/01 12:20 PM, Anarchypenguin wrote: of course I do! Just not when their idiots like you. America Doesn't have a set language, And assimilating people into one culture isn't american, it's nazi, so have fun with your little nazi buddies, But I'm in support of the constitution.

English is the language that all trade and business is done in.

At 6/14/01 12:50 PM, GameboyCC wrote:

At 6/14/01 12:20 PM, Anarchypenguin wrote: of course I do! Just not when their idiots like you. America Doesn't have a set language, And assimilating people into one culture isn't american, it's nazi, so have fun with your little nazi buddies, But I'm in support of the constitution.

English is the language that all trade and business is done in.

Alright that's great, So let's go tell the croatian seeking refuge from a war torn country where just going outside your house deams you to danger of death, that he has to leave the sweat shop where he works for 10 cents a day becuase Nike corperation only deals with english speakers.

At 6/14/01 01:01 PM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/14/01 12:50 PM, GameboyCC wrote:

At 6/14/01 12:20 PM, Anarchypenguin wrote: of course I do! Just not when their idiots like you. America Doesn't have a set language, And assimilating people into one culture isn't american, it's nazi, so have fun with your little nazi buddies, But I'm in support of the constitution.

English is the language that all trade and business is done in.

Alright that's great, So let's go tell the croatian seeking refuge from a war torn country where just going outside your house deams you to danger of death, that he has to leave the sweat shop where he works for 10 cents a day becuase Nike corperation only deals with english speakers.

I'm assuming that this little senario takes place in Croatia. In that case, the Nike corperation would need to have employees/translaters with knowledge of Croation dialects.

If I'm just being a complete dumbass, and this really takes place in America, then I feel that if the refugee wanted to apply for citizenship, s/he would need to be instructed in English. S/He should at least have a speaking knowledge of English. But as far as sweatshops go, if this person knows enough English, that option can be avoided. They can save up and get and education, and a good job.