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Today in my World Geography class, we got into a discussion about foreigners and immigrants. Apparently, my teacher believes that someone from another country should not have to know how to speak English to become a citizen. Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you. There was an incident concerning a foreigner and several police officers. The foreigner was told to freeze, and keep his hands up. Not understanding what they said, he walked away. They yelled at him again, and he turned around, then reached near his coat. He was shot and killed because of this, thinking he was reaching for a weapon. His family is currently trying to take this to court. How stupid!!! If you want to be a member of a country/organization/club, I think that there are certain things you need to know. And to be a legal citizen, you should be able to speak the language. Does anybody agree with me?

Heh, when I opened the topic I was figuring you were some Brit bitching about how words are spelled differently in American English. My mistake.

Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you.

And its 'well enough,' genius. It's usually a bad idea to be grammatically incorrect when you are making a point about people not knowing the English language :) But then again maybe I just feel like being a bitch tonight.

You have an extremely ignorant attitude, Tyrant. In Canada, you can speak French or English. In some Asian countries there are dozens of languages spoken in just a few square miles. There was a National Geographic article about a country where there were 42 national languages. That means every official document has to be translated into those languages.

Your problem stems from your inability to speak more than one language fluently. Quit blaming the immigrants for your ignorance.

Also, you will not find a single immigrant who go back to his/her home country simply because they can't speak English. This country was founded by immigrants. If they went back to their home country they would starve, and subsequently, their children would starve.

When you can tell me that you would starve a child to death because he/she can't speak English, I'll go ahead and support your English-only law.

You might try looking at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty.

Countries that already have so many national languages have a completely different social and historical background.

I think it's a matter of creating a divided society if people can't speak the same language. It's a matter of communication and functionality.

Besides which, if I went to live in another country, I'd learn their language. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I have a friend who went to Japan on exchange for a year. He didn't know Japanese before he went. He really practised hard and studied every night (as well as talking to the locals), and he came back fluent (he now lives in Japan with his Japanese girlfriend).

Then, he took up Chinese. He then went to China (where he met his girlfriend). Another friend of mine also went to China, to the same university. The difference was that the first friend (Kelvin) tried to avoid speaking English there. The second guy (Duane), hung out with Europeans and Americans. Guess who learnt Chinese better?

Okay, so maybe you're thinking Kelvin is just really talented to pick up those languages so quickly. Maybe he is. There's no excuse for people to live in a country for thirty years and not learn the language though.

shorbe

cable: I love someone who's a picky fuck like me. There's nothing better than someone criticising others for their English, and then screwing up their own! :)

shorbe

At 5/12/01 11:51 PM, shorbe wrote:
Okay, so maybe you're thinking Kelvin is just really talented to pick up those languages so quickly. Maybe he is. There's no excuse for people to live in a country for thirty years and not learn the language though.

It isn't exactly rocket science. If you immerse yourself in a new language, you're going to pick it up. Instinct will tell you that if you can't speak even a little bit of the language, you will never be able to ask for help, directions, or food.
Only the truly resistant person, or the person with a good translator, will not learn their new language.
What drive me really crazy are the people who move to America from a Spanish speaking country, learn english, but refuse to teach their kids English.These people go out and learn enough English so that they can get jobs and raise their children in Spanish speaking homes. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?
Another thing is with citizenship. To become a U.S. citizen, you have to prove that you can read, write, and speak English. Ha! You should see the "citizens" working in my school's cafeteria. Half of them don't speak a WQRD of English. You point to an item, say a sandwich, and say "sandwich", and the lady behind the counter picks up a brownie and says, "Como?". You point to the sandwich again, and say, "sandwich", and the lady picks up a can of fruit punch and says, "Como?". And it keeps going and going until she eventually picks up the correct item by accident.
One would think that they'd atleast give these workers a crash course in English, so that they could do their job.
Damned immigrants.
Not to sound ignorant, but why should I have to learn their language so that they may live comfortably in my country? I'm all for learning new languages, and being able to help out a tourist in need from time to time is practically a duty, but these "citizens" need to get with the program. Geez.

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, tyrant_nero wrote: Today in my World Geography class, we got into a discussion about foreigners and immigrants. Apparently, my teacher believes that someone from another country should not have to know how to speak English to become a citizen. Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you. There was an incident concerning a foreigner and several police officers. The foreigner was told to freeze, and keep his hands up. Not understanding what they said, he walked away. They yelled at him again, and he turned around, then reached near his coat. He was shot and killed because of this, thinking he was reaching for a weapon. His family is currently trying to take this to court. How stupid!!! If you want to be a member of a country/organization/club, I think that there are certain things you need to know. And to be a legal citizen, you should be able to speak the language. Does anybody agree with me?

Most of the people in america speak english.

At 5/13/01 07:30 PM, bizwatch wrote:

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, tyrant_nero wrote:

Most of the people in america speak english.

You don't travel around the U.S. much, do you?

I have an extremely ignorant attitude? If you say so. If you went to another country, would you expect everybody to treat you with extra special care, or learn english just for you? I don't think so. If you went to live or stay for an exceptionally long period of time, it would be necessary to learn the customs and parts of the language that would be needed for everyday life. About your comments about Canada: That is a Bilingual country. It has 2 national languages. America has 1. See the difference? If the national language was both English and Spanish, then there would be no problem. But since there is only 1 national language, then they should learn to speak it. I don't know why you lashed out at me, I was stating an opinion. Sure, you shared yours, but you were rude and disrespectful. I'm not angry in the least bit, and I hope the two of us can still remain mutual.

The American Language, what does this language consist of? English, that's the obvious answer. But English can be broken down into many languages, French, Latin, Germanic, and so forth. So where do we get the right to call it 'The American Languae'? To me it just seems like a lot f slang. And the most common slang I can think of in America is 'Ebonics' which is English with a 'Z' where a 'S' should be, an 'A' where an 'ER' should be, and sometimes a 'S' where a 'C' should be. But not everybody speaks 'Ebonics' so I guess that means it isn't 'The American Language'. The Language Americans speak is just misused words such as 'Punk','Freak' and the list goes on. What I am getting at is that we Americans don't have just one language we have many. America reminds me of a big jock with a little dick.

Besides, so people make mistakes in grammer it can't be helped.I'm pretty sure the person who made the mistake realize this and don't need to be corrected.

At 5/13/01 09:34 PM, SilverTofu wrote: a bunch of stuff I cut for space

The language spoken in America is American English. "Ebonics" is not a language, it is a dialect. You cannot live anywhere without speaking a dialect. Most people think that "other" people speak dialects and have slang. Not true. People in Northern Italy have a different dialect than people in Southern Italy. When I was learning Frech in high school, I would ask my friend (who spoke French fluently, her mother was from France) to look over my homework. She didn't understand some things in the text and guessed that it might be from another section of France, or even a Canadian dialect.

If people were going to live in a country, they should learn the language that the locals speak. The best way to learn a language is to jump right in and begin speaking it. In my college French class, we used the Capretz method, which I thought was much better than high school, learning sections of the language at a time (Chapter One: school supplies; Chapter Two: places; Chapter Three: colors; etc)

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, tyrant_nero wrote: Today in my World Geography class, we got into a discussion about foreigners and immigrants. Apparently, my teacher believes that someone from another country should not have to know how to speak English to become a citizen. Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you. There was an incident concerning a foreigner and several police officers. The foreigner was told to freeze, and keep his hands up. Not understanding what they said, he walked away. They yelled at him again, and he turned around, then reached near his coat. He was shot and killed because of this, thinking he was reaching for a weapon. His family is currently trying to take this to court. How stupid!!! If you want to be a member of a country/organization/club, I think that there are certain things you need to know. And to be a legal citizen, you should be able to speak the language. Does anybody agree with me?

I feel that since English is the language that all business is done in, that all TV shows are done in (except for those on Univision and Telemudo!), that since it is the major language of our country, I feel that they should at least take the time to learn a basic understanding of it. A single language for major use is the simplest way to do things. If we had two, we'd wind up like Canada!(And no American wants that! :-))

But seriously... Canada is split into two faction that hate each other (The French and The Brittish Canadians). I can't speak for every American, but I'm not ready for another civil war.

While I don't believe that there should be two languages for major use, a knowledge of a second, third, and/or fourth language is useful for international use(i.e. airlines, ambassitor, translator). If you can speak Spanish, then you can translate movies, books, etc. from Spain, Mexico, etc.! I won't doubt it is a good thing to know two or more languages!

At 5/12/01 12:16 AM, cableshaft wrote: And its 'well enough,' genius. It's usually a bad idea to be grammatically incorrect when you are making a point about people not knowing the English language :)

The point I was trying to make, is that people from a foreign country that want to become legal citizens, need to be able to speak the language WELL enough to be understood. You understood the point I was trying to make. I never admitted to having perfect grammar. All I wanted to do was get a point across. You obviously understood it. So it really doesn't matter. Plus, if you are going to correct me on my grammar, try to correct everyone who uses slang or some other type of dialect.

At 5/14/01 05:00 PM, tyrant_nero wrote: Plus, if you are going to correct me on my grammar, try to correct everyone who uses slang or some other type of dialect.

There is a difference between slang/dialects and bad grammar. Some dialects contain bad grammar, that's true, but just because it's slang/dialect doesn't automatically make it bad grammar.

At 5/13/01 08:45 PM, MissTwidge wrote:

At 5/13/01 07:30 PM, bizwatch wrote:

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, tyrant_nero wrote:

Most of the people in america speak english.

You don't travel around the U.S. much, do you?

I will admit, there is a lot of spanish speaking going on, but on to the sarcasm: also with Portrugese (sp?) and german. Yeah, theres a lot of german communities in the united states that speak german exclusively. Also a lot of french speaking communities. yeah...

There is a difference between slang/dialects and bad grammar. Some dialects contain bad grammar, that's true, but just because it's slang/dialect doesn't automatically make it bad grammar.

Well, it all depends on what you difine as 'bad grammer' and 'good grammer'.

Silver: You're missing a whole lot of points here, especially that grammar is not spelt grammer.

Firstly, it's pretty well irrelevant to say that English is composed of, or dxerived from, all those other languages. As it stands now, it is its own seperate language, and has its own rules and structures. Along the line, most languages have borrowed from others or evolved. It would be silly to disregard differences between French and Spanish merely because they're both derived primarily from Latin.

As for grammar and slang, slang is generally speaking, vocabulary. Vocabulary is different from grammar. Vocabulary is words. Grammar is the structure of sentences, or the way you arrange and combine those words.

shorbe

At 5/14/01 11:19 PM, SilverTofu wrote: Well, it all depends on what you difine as 'bad grammer' and 'good grammer'.

Like shorbe said, it's "grammar". Secondly, it's spelled "define".

Also, bad grammar is the misuse of sentence structure and syntax. Some wouldn't say "Me go to park each Wednesday ride on swings."

Like shorbe said, it's "grammar". Secondly, it's spelled "define".

Why is everyone criticizing SilverTofu? Everybody makes spelling mistakes here or there, it's no big deal. Just like when I screwed up my grammar in the first paragraph. Basically, this conversation has gone from immigrants learning the language of the country they move to, to the rules of language/grammar. What I just said was grammatically incorrect. I bet there were some spelling mistakes. Does it matter? It really shouldn't.

When I mentioned the fact that you would have to correct the grammar of everyone who uses slang earlier, what I meant was, when people talk like "I be goin' home to sleep some". You cannot tell me that this is the correct way to say a sentence. That was the type of slang I was referring to. But who cares anymore? Everyone should find another topic to respond to.

tyrant: Frankly, I'm beginning to find the way you end sentences with prepositions quite troubling.

Seriously though, yes it does matter that people use correct grammar and spelling. You would expect people to add correctly, or perform any other function properly.

Excellence is something for which we should strive, and something that should be demanded.

It's the thin edge of the wedge so to speak. As much of the blame rests upon idiot teachers (as well as parents) as it does on students.

Teachers, of all people, should be using correct English. If they don't, then the next thing we have is an illiterate society. Perhaps people think that won't happen, or worse yet, that it's not important if it does.

Language is about communication and convention though. It's so that everyone can understand one another, and express ideas that are often complex. If we lower the standards in English, it has a flow on effect to every other field of human endeavour. Whether that is science, humanities, or just inter-personal relations, if people can't say what they want to say in a clear and (where necessary) sufficiently complex way, then communication breaks down, and meaning is lost.

At the most relevant level, I wouldn't give a job to someone who could barely string a sentence together. It would look bad on them and me, and could very well impact on customer relations. People would, and do, look at illiterate people as stupid and uncivilised.

shorbe

Yes, it is important for everyone to use correct spelling and grammar, but not everyone is as educated as the next person. Alot of people have weak points in the structure and proper rules of a language. I may be one of those people, but I at least put forth the effort to be as correct as possible. I really don't find it realistic for any one person to be able to follow every rule of grammar, all the time.

At 5/15/01 08:55 PM, shorbe wrote: tyrant: Frankly, I'm beginning to find the way you end sentences with prepositions quite troubling.

Seriously though, yes it does matter that people use correct grammar and spelling. You would expect people to add correctly, or perform any other function properly.

Excellence is something for which we should strive, and something that should be demanded.

It's the thin edge of the wedge so to speak. As much of the blame rests upon idiot teachers (as well as parents) as it does on students.

Teachers, of all people, should be using correct English. If they don't, then the next thing we have is an illiterate society. Perhaps people think that won't happen, or worse yet, that it's not important if it does.

Language is about communication and convention though. It's so that everyone can understand one another, and express ideas that are often complex. If we lower the standards in English, it has a flow on effect to every other field of human endeavour. Whether that is science, humanities, or just inter-personal relations, if people can't say what they want to say in a clear and (where necessary) sufficiently complex way, then communication breaks down, and meaning is lost.

At the most relevant level, I wouldn't give a job to someone who could barely string a sentence together. It would look bad on them and me, and could very well impact on customer relations. People would, and do, look at illiterate people as stupid and uncivilised.

shorbe

Language important, no I Silver not think. Backwards talk should we. taught me will not has the teacher? Strive to be sucessful,why when it comes down to it, i really doesn't matter? I doubt anyone will care 'he spoke very proper English and had correct grammar' the only place where correct grammar matters is government places, and rich peoples house. Yeah man, I'm walking down the street and Joe Nobody and comes up to me and says 'that is incorrecr gammar I shall insult your intelligence' Joe Nobody wouldn't last long in New York would he? He'd probably get shot for being A ASS (yes a mistake I did I just for the fun of mistakes)or he would end up teaching grammar to a bunch of drugy high schooler named Jeff Basher or something.

Unless he's a computer whiz, then he'd probably end up in some nowhere job, serving some guy whose parents taught him correct grammar, and who, consequently, looked really good on all his college applications, got into the Ivy League school of his choice, and then went on to earn more in five years than your kid would in a lifetime.

My aunt once said to my mother that education wasn't important. Of course, that's why my cousins now earn minimum wage in dead-end jobs, and will never do anything with their lives, while my sister and I are becoming professionals, and have travelled all over the world, and will continue to do so.

Education is unimportant though.

shorbe

In fact, I would go as far as to say that parents who don't send their kids to private schools or homeschool them (in other words, let the government educate them) are completely irresponsible and reprehensible. It's like playing Russian Roulette. It's a form of child abuse.

Those who won't teach their child(ren) correct English are even worse. They might as well hang a sign around the kid's neck saying "we did not want this child" or tattoo "second class citizen" on its forehead.

Why wouldn't you want to give your kid every fighting chance out there in the world? You wouldn't starve your kid of food (well, some would), so why would you starve it of the ability to produce or acquire food?

shorbe

At 5/16/01 11:19 AM, shorbe wrote: In fact, I would go as far as to say that parents who don't send their kids to private schools or homeschool them (in other words, let the government educate them) are completely irresponsible and reprehensible. It's like playing Russian Roulette. It's a form of child abuse.

Explain.

At 5/16/01 11:19 AM, shorbe wrote: In fact, I would go as far as to say that parents who don't send their kids to private schools or homeschool them (in other words, let the government educate them) are completely irresponsible and reprehensible. It's like playing Russian Roulette. It's a form of child abuse.

You are stereotyping too many people in this catergory. You are saying that every single person who is home schooled or goes to a private school, succeeds in life. This is not always true. Also, people who go to a public school, are not savages like you seem to think they are.

Those who won't teach their child(ren) correct English are even worse. They might as well hang a sign around the kid's neck saying "we did not want this child" or tattoo "second class citizen" on its forehead.

I do agree that learning correct grammar is important, but you make it seem as if cannot be perfect (like you think you are)in this field, then they should lose priveliges or be labled of a lower worth. Someone is not a second class citizen if they cannot speak well.

Why wouldn't you want to give your kid every fighting chance out there in the world? You wouldn't starve your kid of food (well, some would), so why would you starve it of the ability to produce or acquire food?

And learning correct grammar will get them food? I don't think so. If you walk into McDonalds, and order your food correctly, with perfect speech, the cashier isn't going to go "OH MY GOD!!! PERFECT GRAMMAR!!! FREE FOOD FOR YOU!!!". Let's be realistic about this. Speech is important obviously, but a person acquires a job with the skills that they have, not by being able to identify each law of grammar, and by following each of them.

I think you need to realize that there are more important factors in getting a job and succeeding in life besides "grammar". Perfect speech is not the most valuable thing you can learn in a school. You seem to associate "good jobs" with jobs that require traveling or tedious hours, sitting behind a desk. There is more to life than a 9 to 5 office job. Your idea of success in life may not be the same to another, so you need to realize this.

Another thing: Where would society be without the people who have low class jobs? How would we function without fast food employees, or other people that are employed in lower-scaled posistions? The working system is based on levels, and if you take away that bottom level, then the rest of the system collapses. Not everyone can be successful. People at the bottom have there role in society, it just may not be what you deem appropriate.

At 5/16/01 11:08 AM, shorbe wrote: Unless he's a computer whiz, then he'd probably end up in some nowhere job, serving some guy whose parents taught him correct grammar, and who, consequently, looked really good on all his college applications, got into the Ivy League school of his choice, and then went on to earn more in five years than your kid would in a lifetime.

My aunt once said to my mother that education wasn't important. Of course, that's why my cousins now earn minimum wage in dead-end jobs, and will never do anything with their lives, while my sister and I are becoming professionals, and have travelled all over the world, and will continue to do so.

Education is unimportant though.

shorbe

I bet my kid will learn to tie their shoe before your's because they listened and not correct their parent for using incorrect grammar.

I don't get the point do I? The question is should people coming to America learn the language, not the grammar. Education is unimportant, because of two reasons one; you'll never know everything two; somebody always knows more than thee. Traveling eh? Going to correct a Frenchie for not having correct grammar? Going to stop a Russian from shooting you because used incorrect grammar? Minimum wage, currency it ruins the world.

At 5/16/01 05:13 PM, tyrant_nero wrote: Let's be realistic about this. Speech is important obviously, but a person acquires a job with the skills that they have, not by being able to identify each law of grammar, and by following each of them.

Apparantly so! Look at President Bush ;)

Slizor: Because you're leaving it up to chance. This is my whole point for tyrant nero also.

I'm not saying that everyone in the government system turns out bad. Likewise, I am not saying everyone else succeeds. What I am talking about is probabilities or likelihoods. It's all about getting an edge.

Here's an analogy. Take Olympic cycling. Sure, the bike isn't everything, but those with really expensive bikes have an edge on those without, and that may well make the difference in the end.

That's why I am asking why anyone would leave anything up to chance? Why wouldn't you give your kids the edge?

When I said second class citizen, I think you misinterpreted me. At the most fundamental level, we're all human, and there is nothing biological (or otherwise) that makes us members of a class. I'm not talking about some caste system like they have in India.

What I am saying though is that class is a construct. It is most often determined by money. Money is most often determined by the type of job you have, and the type of job you have is most often determined by your education. Thus, acknowledging that class is still a construct, we can still admit that there is a fairly straight line from education to class, with money and employment being the middle men.

When I said it won't get them food, I think once again, you misinterpreted me. I didn't mean them purachasing food. I meant them earning food, or the ability to purchase it. Perhaps I should have expanded that to food, shelter, clothes, and other material possessions. I thought people would extrapolate.

Sure, as you point out, people get jobs through skills. Often, for the top jobs (which is why I mentioned one exception being IT), a high level of education and a good ability to communicate is required. These are firstly required to get good grades to get into colleges to get the qualifications or skills. Then, they are required to get past the interviews. Then finally, they are often intrinsic to the job itself. Whether that entails public relations or report writing is irrelevant. The point is that if you're dropping double negatives left and right, then you're hardly going to become the next VP.

If you really think you can deny this, you're fooling yourself.

I did not say that is necessarily my idea of success. I have no desire to be part of the corporate world.

Good English is also necessary in the medical, and para-medical professions, for the same reasons above, particularly in actually getting into college.

Indeed, it's necessary for virtually every professional job, the exception being computer programming or networking and other related jobs.

I don't just base success on money, but it's at least somewhat necessary in life. That's how things are. If I only had to think about myself, I could be poor. It wouldn't worry me too much. If I ever have a family though, I couldn't do that to them.

One thing I admire is the arts. I'm talking about artists, musicians, writers, etc. Some of them certainly need incredible prowess with the language. Others don't, because that's not what they do. Their job doesn't involve writing or speaking per se.

Likewise with most athletes (not that I admire them).

The point is though, that probably a good 90% of jobs involve language as a key element of the job. Most people aren't going to be some incredibly withdrawn genius churning our brilliant paintings, or some incredible basketballer. As such, they will be judged, and succeed or fail, on their ability to communicate with language.

Hey, I never said we don't need people doing menial jobs. We do. I don't want to be one such person though, and I'm sure you don't either really. So once again, to get a good job, you need education. If you want to work in Taco Bell all your life, good for you. I hope it makes you happy, especially when you're struggling to support a family.

Silver: I don't think you made a lot of sense there. Sure you'll never know everything, and you'll always encounter people who know more than you, but if you really believe that, then how do you explain the fact that most rich people are well educated, and most try to provide their children with education? Why do you think Jews and Asians do so well? They're not stupid. They know the way to rise two whole socio-economic classes in a generation is through education.

Freak: Bush defies both our arguments. He has neither the education, nor the skills. Bizarre. I think he's just a figurehead anyway.

shorbe

At 5/11/01 07:11 PM, tyrant_nero wrote: Today in my World Geography class, we got into a discussion about foreigners and immigrants. Apparently, my teacher believes that someone from another country should not have to know how to speak English to become a citizen. Come on! I think that in order to be a member of a country, you must know how to at least speak the language good enough to where other people can understand you. There was an incident concerning a foreigner and several police officers. The foreigner was told to freeze, and keep his hands up. Not understanding what they said, he walked away. They yelled at him again, and he turned around, then reached near his coat. He was shot and killed because of this, thinking he was reaching for a weapon. His family is currently trying to take this to court. How stupid!!! If you want to be a member of a country/organization/club, I think that there are certain things you need to know. And to be a legal citizen, you should be able to speak the language. Does anybody agree with me?

Well life is a bitch so get over it. Those cops would have probaly killed that foriegnor anyway, thats the way it is in this country.