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At 5/1/06 04:50 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: Why?

Because.

It is your job to protect people from falling into unimaginable misery and lack of prosperity. A government is MEANT to keep it's people happy, and do things for the people, remember?

No, it's meant to PROTECT its people and promote the general welfare. And it is to give us those three rights: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is not to provide us with everything to make our lives perfect. If it is possible to fix your sex, we have done enough. You have the opportunity.

Again, it's a birth defect, like. Some people can't afford to fix it, and will live their lives out in misery with a high risk of suicide. You're okay with that because at your core, you don't *Really* care about other people, as liberal as you claim to be.

Interesting. I always claim to be conservative. That's why I'm a Republican and you always call me a neo con remember. And they don't have a high rate of suicide because of "being the wrong sex", they have a high rate of suicide because they are ridiculed and mocked, and often times their families make them feel like outcasts. Powerful stuff, your family making you feel like a freak.

That's absolutely ridiculous. It's a genuine recognised defect of some sort. It is not something someone does or a whim, it is not a personal decision like haircolour is. It is something that you do, or you're miserable.

It's a personal decision to become female. Or to become male.

Get. Fucking. Real. WHERE is that attitude causing serious harm, anywhere? I'll tell you what IS causing people harm. Idiots who fuck U.S. Capitalism up the ass even though it screws them over as much as anyone else.

Well, thanks for keeping it civilized. The problem is people who expect the government to do everything for them. The welfare state keeps people in never ending poverty and breeds a sense of entitlement. But look at france. The people there don't even feel the employers have a right to fire them. If that's not a problem I don't know what is.

Do you have ANY IDEA how offensive that is to anyone who's gone through anything like transsexuality, or who's gone through the pains of it with other people? You're an insensitive prick and have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Can't make your point? Say you know what you're talking about and the other person doesn't. Still doesn't work? Call them an idiot. Still nothing? Call them a homophobe and insult them. Same thing you've done to everyone who disagrees with you in any thread ever.

If there's one thing I hate worse than people making retarded presumptions about me, it's making retarded assumptions about my friends.

When did I make assumptions about you? Or your friends? If there's one thing that bores me, it's someone making a non-personal issue personal, then screaming obscenities and insults, and then playing the victim role of the persecuted when they get called on it.

I think this just shows how tolerant people are. They're only fine up until the point that they don't have to do anything to help those poeople.

Unlike some people, I don't feel the need to cry over every little thing and call it a human rights violation. If I saw someone getting attacked, I'd try to help them. After I've made sure they're ok, do I need to buy them a new dress or pair of pants cause theirs got torn? Of course not.

What? Yes there have. One of the links I gave contained a number of psychological researched.

I saw ONE link. Feel free to provide me more and I'll gladly look over them. I actually look at the evidence.

So we should take anecdotal evidence from someone who really doesn't know what he's talking about over real studies? Because there's only one study, it's automatically wrong? I don't think you realise how unlikely it is. It's not just one study, it's a discovery. Do you know what "discovery" MEANS? We discovered something interesting, that the mental makeup of transsexual women, is, at least most of the time, the same as a born woman. Statistically speaking, unless something was seriously wrong with their methods, it's a near impossibility for it to be otherwise.

The scientists at Philip Morris "discovered" that cigarette smoke has no effect on your health. Don't give me this "a study is infallible" bs. Call it whatever you want. And unless you're a scientist, which you're not, you need to stop the superiority crap. You don't know what you're talking about more than anyone else here. Of course it's got a high probability of being wrong. That's why the whole process of "scientific review" exists. Anyone can publish a study and claim it's fact, but until others review it, redo it, and come to the same conclusion by duplicating results it means nothing.

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At 5/1/06 04:50 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: Transsexuality has NEVER once been cured by therapy, the same as homosexuality. Transsexuality is just the same as homosexuality, except it's gender identity instead of sexual preference. The only *Real* difference is that you have to fund it(at least in the U.K. and some of Europe).

OK. And? So it's the same. That means jack as to why I should pay for it.

Did you know that the Netherlands even pay for (some degree of) Facial Feminisation surgery? Yet you won't even help them pay for their hormones and vital operation.

And? So the Netherlands pays. Good for them.

Don't you realise that the stuff you're saying is the *exact* same stuff that was said about homosexuality a few years ago, and just

How is it the same? Homosexuals never came forward....I FEEL GAY! GIVE ME MONEY! Don't spout off that it's none of anyone's business, then turn around and demand we pay for it.

You claim to be open minded, but when you have to pay a single dollar(rather literally), your mind closes up again. Pathetic.

More insults.

WHy can Britian do this? Why can the Netherlands do this? Why can half of Canada do this? Because they realise it's a genuine health concern and that somebody cannot operate well as a human being until they are resolved of these problems.

Canada's health care sucks. They export so many cases to the US it's not even funny.

You're pro-abortion, yet that's much more common than transsexuality; it would cost more to fund abortion clinics, etc., but I'm sure you wouldn't have a major problem with the government funding those, even though those would be bound to cost at least as much as transsexuality, which is just as scarring, and unlike abortion, imperitive in most cases. Though you could well flip-flop now to "prove" a bigotted point.

I'm pro-abortion...interesting....
No, I'm very much AGAINST abortion, and I signed the petition to get funds to Planned Parenthood cut. I don't need to do some major "good will gesture" to the GLBT community. That's the problem. People feeling that the government owes them something besides protection.
And I'm not flip-flopping, as I have always been very admantly pro-life on this board and elsewhere. The closest I've ever come to even devil's advocating abortion, is when I used pro-choice arguments to argue AGAINST abortion.
I'm starting to see why you didn't want to take that quiz.

And what was that about making assumptions about people?

You're working on the presumption that transsexuality is as much a choice as fundies believe homosexuality is, and that it's not particularily bothering. That's insane to anyone who's dealth with it head on.

Whether it's a choice or not is irrelevant. Pay. For. It. Yourself. It is not my job.

At 5/1/06 04:55 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: People shouldn't have to fork out thousands just because of the way they're born. All major birth defects should be funded for. Do you think that if the Elephant man wanted his head fixed, it would just be "pursuit of happiness", and like getting his roots done? How is it any different? It's not the same as plastic surgery if you're vastly mutilated to begin with.
We have the technology to help these people. Refusal of action is just as bad as a negative action in many cases.

Start a private charity then. And in some cases, plastic surgery is neccessary to save life. Such as skin grafts. People have to fork out thousands all the time "for the way they were born". Most medical service only covers emergencies. So if you have a facial deformity that isn't a threat...you pay for it yourself. Fertility treatments are another good example. Prosthetic limbs. Etc.

You can survive as a male in a female's body or vice versa. The solution here is to make them feel like members of the community instead of outcasts, give them good advice on their sexuality, protect them from those who would do them harm (which IS our job), and allow them to make their personal choices as long as they don't harm others.

Oh, and by the way, you made the absurd argument earlier that sexuality isn't treated by scientists and psychologists. That is absolutely wrong as sexual therapy is a huge part of psychology. And that therapy usually revolves around the subject being through some sort of sexual trauma like rape, incest, etc. So I'd stop spouting the "psychology doesn't treat sexuality" nonsense, if I were you.

Oh, and I'm not a pro-abortion liberal. I'm a pro-life (anti-choice) conservative. If you're going to rant on and insult me for a page, at least get your facts right.

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No, it's meant to PROTECT its people and promote the general welfare. And it is to give us those three rights: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is not to provide us with everything to make our lives perfect. If it is possible to fix your sex, we have done enough. You have the opportunity.

Bullshit, absolute bullshit. All you're doing is listing out phrases without any

Under your logic, if people were living torturous lives, it's okay if they have a 1 in a million chance of being happy, and they're alive, and have rights. The government's job is done. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You're obviously against socialised health care.

Interesting. I always claim to be conservative. That's why I'm a Republican and you always call me a neo con remember. And they don't have a high rate of suicide because of "being the wrong sex", they have a high rate of suicide because they are ridiculed and mocked, and often times their families make them feel like outcasts. Powerful stuff, your family making you feel like a freak.

Got you mixed up with Begoner for a second. No idea why that happens. Maybe because I was hoping it would annoy you.

You're only naming some factors, not the whole picture. I don't see how never being able to attain your is vastly less scarring than your family disapproving of your decision.

It's a personal decision to become female. Or to become male.

No it isn't. You can't just spew out "common sense" assumptions in an argument and act like they're fact. It is not a "personal decision" in the normal sense. Discovering your a TS happens anyway, you don't just decide that. And unless you get some kind of real physical treatment to fix your defect, it's incredibly scarring.

You're quite possible one of the most insensitive human beings I've ever met so I don't even expect you to want to understand that.

One line assertments are not an argument. You can tell you're a conservative when your entire argument is "that's the way you are".

You have absolutely nothing to back up your argument. You're arguing from tradition, purely based on conservative values without any reasoning as to why it is valid. This is a logical fallacy, pure and simple.

People need to read thefallacyfiles.org before they argue here in future.

Well, thanks for keeping it civilized. The problem is people who expect the government to do everything for them. The welfare state keeps people in never ending poverty and breeds a sense of entitlement. But look at france. The people there don't even feel the employers have a right to fire them. If that's not a problem I don't know what is.

You know next to nothing about Europe and how it works. We are constantly exposed to the U.S. people online, there's a lot more of you, and U.S. media. We know how you're doing. You don't know how we're doing.

You seem to be operating under the vastly amazing illusion that the U.S. is keeping it together better than Europe right now. But who's citizens are in outcry, exactly?

Socialised healthcare works, the only valid argument I've heard is that Doctors go elsewhere. But that's only if they *can * go elsewhere. With the Canada/U.S. situation they go south of the border, that's it, and even then not everyone will want to move, I never got the logic that "all" the good doctors go south.

It's better to have a somewhat shoddy service for everyone than a shoddy service for half the population.

Gay Marriage works. Socialised Healthcare works, in most cases, regardless of whether it's the best method or not. These aren't debatable facts for anyone who isn't a xenophobe.

Can't make your point? Say you know what you're talking about and the other person doesn't. Still doesn't work? Call them an idiot. Still nothing? Call them a homophobe and insult them. Same thing you've done to everyone who disagrees with you in any thread ever.

When you're tactics consist of re-affirming unbacked statements, you've no right to criticise. If you hold views that show little or no regard for the well being of others, people will insult. They will call you a bigot. You don't like it? Start giving a shit about other people, or shut the fuck up. Nobody smart likes an evil crusader.

The reason I am angry, is, as far as your views are concerned you, are a bad person. Your views disgust me and you are indeed one of the most insensitive creatures I've ever met. A living breathing asshole. Bad people aren't the ones that angry. Bad people are slithery, slimey creatures, it wouldn't be productive for them to be angry, would it? And they nearly always anger people because of the misconception otherwise.

When did I make assumptions about you? Or your friends?

How the fuck can you even say this? How about assuming that it's a choice and not hard wired, even after a test disproves you? How about assuming that people can get on with their lives when just about any valid resource online will tell you they can't? You're assuming you know how much pain they go through, what it's like, any number of things. There are any number of assumptions you made it wouldn't be worth listing them all if you're so delusional

If there's one thing that bores me, it's someone making a non-personal issue personal, then screaming obscenities and insults, and then playing the victim role of the persecuted when they get called on it.

None of this has anything to do with your argument. The only on topic things you've posted are baseless one line assertments. Then you spend the rest of your post attacking your methods. Again, if you don't want people to get angry, don't be insensitive. People get angry when you show no regard for their needs, or the needs of their friends. Good people get angry a lot more often than bad people, because bad people tend to be slimey. Who's shouting is nothing to do with what's right and wrong. If you're personally insulted, you may have deserved it. Ad Hominem only applies if a point is based around a personal insult. Me calling you an asshole for good reason is not a true fallacy, and there is in fact another fallacy governing the claim of Ad Hominem in such scenarios(another neo-con classic, recorded in the fallacy files).

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At 5/1/06 04:50 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: It is your job to protect people from falling into unimaginable misery and lack of prosperity. A government is MEANT to keep it's people happy, and do things for the people, remember?

If you're not, you're absolutely and completely useless. This fact is not arguable.

Under the origional context of the Constitution, I actually dont think the goverment is supposed to have any hand in social programs like welfare or medicare or anything like this.

The goverment was not created to bring enjoyment to everyone. It was created to protect your natural rights as a human being and let everyone have the chance of happiness.

So no, the United States Goverment has no responsibility to do this. If it happens, it happens. I would much rather have an extremely limited goverment, but that is so incredibly unrealistic in todays day and age.

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Unlike some people, I don't feel the need to cry over every little thing and call it a human rights violation.

Becaue you don't really give a shit about human rights that don't apply to you or your immediate social circle.

If I saw someone getting attacked, I'd try to help them. After I've made sure they're ok, do I need to buy them a new dress or pair of pants cause theirs got torn? Of course not.

Your logic is flawed because charity is not the same as state welfare and social security, not by a long shot. To work together you need kind of system in place that makes sure people have as equal a chance as possible. It is not an immediate necessity for one person to repair anothers' clothes.

I saw ONE link. Feel free to provide me more and I'll gladly look over them. I actually look at the evidence.

No you don't. I bet you're too thick to understand the neuron study(which to be fair, isn't too terrible since I don't understand a lot of it, but pretending otherwise is) so you're just asking for things you can actually digest, which you'll ignore anyway. Which you've already done, since others were posted throughout the topic. Amazing how your kind hates "lazy" people, yet traversing a topic or searching google is beyond you.

This isn't how you argue. I provided my argument in the form of the study. Unless you can form a counter to that, my point stands.

The scientists at Philip Morris "discovered" that cigarette smoke has no effect on your health. Don't give me this "a study is infallible" bs.

Show me the research.

:Call it whatever you want. And unless you're a scientist, which you're not, you need to stop the superiority crap.

Yet you think you're smarter than scientists.

You don't know what you're talking about more than anyone else here.

You don't NEED to understand anything. One of the most important defining factors in brain gender, neuron numbers, do not differ in naturally born females and transgendered females, nor is it possible for anything afterwards to change that, to our current understanding, anyway. There's a lot of advanced biology but it doesn't really matter. It's a coherent study with coherent pictures and conclusions for you to understand.

Of course it's got a high probability of being wrong.

Why? I don't think you understand the concept of probability

That's why the whole process of "scientific review" exists. Anyone can publish a study and claim it's fact, but until others review it, redo it, and come to the same conclusion by duplicating results it means nothing.

That study has been posted on any number valid scientific sources if you bothered to google for it. If there was any serious problems with it, we'd have been let known by now. It's a few years old, and if there was a flaw with it, then it would be all over the place. The idea of transgenders having the same brain as their "target" gender is not a new one.

OK. And? So it's the same. That means jack as to why I should pay for it.

I'll accept I've provided no reason for people who are inhumane to the core with no regard for human beings in suffering that their own values conflict with. But all that needs to be said is that people are suffering, and if you can do SOMETHING to help them out immensely, and it costs everyone a dollar, it should be done. You are mounting an argument against common decency. You're absurd.

How is it the same? Homosexuals never came forward....I FEEL GAY! GIVE ME MONEY! Don't spout off that it's none of anyone's business, then turn around and demand we pay for it.

But it costs a dollar. Let's put it this way, would you be a good human being if you knew, absolutely, that giving a person a dollar would give him a real, serious chance at turning his life around? You don't HAVE to, but you'd be a pretty bad person if you didn't. There's nothing wrong with enforcing a dollar on Bad People through taxes if they're too misery to give it up, and good people care less.
And did I ever said it was none of anyone's business? That was altane_mistress. ALL of this kind of thing is EVERYONE's bussiness because EVERYONE has to work and operate with all sorts of people every day.

Canada's health care sucks. They export so many cases to the US it's not even funny.

Europe's doesn't. Care to have any statistics to back up your statement? Oh, I almost forgot you were conservative again.

Whether it's a choice or not is irrelevant. Pay. For. It. Yourself. It is not my job.

For the general populace, it's a dollar per generation. For a person to pay for themselves, it will cost thousands, and this is not for a new car or a facelift, it's for something which makes life extremely difficult in it's absence. You're hammering out statements with no reasoning as to why. This is the definition of illogical debate. I don't honestly care what you think your job is. You don't give a crap about these people, it shouldn't be your place to make this decision. It's not all "your money" as you're going to be taxed on it one way or another. If you can't accept that your money might be used to help someone else out you don't "agree" with, you shouldn't be living in a republic, democracy, or anything of the sort.

You're a dick. You're a nasty piece of shit and all this rubbish is just a transparent front for your own bigotry. Of course, since you'll make fun of me daring to call you a bigot, that obviously means you're not, nor do you have to argue a case. You have no logical points, no studies, no backing, absolutely nothing. By definition, what you have is a prejudice, as you have no real reason for believing it.

Is that insulting? Yes! But the difference is, you deserve it. If you don't want to be insulted, be a little more considerate of others, and argue in an acceptable manner, basing your arguments on facts and logic instead of conservative "common sense" and prejudice.

But I don't honestly think you'll improve. You'll continue to be rasp and nasty.

You're not a pleasant person. And that's a serious issue. Maybe you're nice to people on the outside, but it's what's inside that counts when it comes to the ballot box, rearing children, or your open your innermost thoughts to anyone at all. I don't tolerate, nor do I have to tolerate people like you, as I never claimed to be tolerant of everything. I believe in tolerance for people

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that don't seriously damage, or seriously disrespect other people based on their needs. Wanting a dollar does not count as this.

All this is really bullshit. All these conservative politics are just a roundabout way for you not having to help people you don't like, or just plain not having to help people if it inconveniences you for any reason. You're like the king who lets the beggar sleep in his castle for a night, just for the warm feeling, who then steps up the poor's taxes in the morning.

You and your views are potentially very harmful, and are already causing an unimaginable amount of pain and suffering all around the world. It is an extension of your views that causes third world poverty. You blame liberal values for breaking down modern society, and fail to realise that no community can exist based on your "every man for himself" idioms.

You cannot argue. All you can do is laugh at my surely ridiculous accusations, like the fool who's crying inside.

I just hate that people like you have any level of influence in the world, let alone.

People need to be educated not to listen to people who argue solely from tradition and prejudice, need to be educated not to listen to the likes of you. Get it to the children. Of course that disgusts you as it would violate "free speech", yet you can do the same to homosexuals and the more hardcore "liberals" and it's perfectly acceptable.

You're a bloody mess, man, you and your kind. The rest of the world would be laughing at you if it wasn't for the amount of turmoil your people are in and headed for. It's the same attitude that won't help a tiny minority out with their misery, that splits the country with it's desolate arrogant and lack of regard for people in situations differing from their own

Under the origional context of the Constitution, I actually dont think the goverment is supposed to have any hand in social programs like welfare or medicare or anything like this.

The goverment was not created to bring enjoyment to everyone. It was created to protect your natural rights as a human being and let everyone have the chance of happiness.

So no, the United States Goverment has no responsibility to do this. If it happens, it happens. I would much rather have an extremely limited goverment, but that is so incredibly unrealistic in todays day and age.

None of that is reasoning, and many of the views you've posted before conflict with the constitution. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just MAYBE, you might have to ADD something once in a while? Like say, an AMMENDMENT? Or is that crazy talK?

You, like whatshisface, is arguing from tradition. Because it's the way it is, it's the way it is. At best you're saying that because of rules x, you can't do y. That's not a reason.

A government should cater to the needs of people. What a government was founded for is irrelevant. You cannot improve a country if the government can't improve the people. Just because utopia may be unobtainable does not mean you should try to obtain the best you can.

People will NEVER improve on their own. It's only through some form of unification that people as a whole will improve. It's impossible otherwise.

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At 5/1/06 06:48 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

All this is really bullshit. All these conservative politics are just a roundabout way for you not having to help people you don't like, or just plain not having to help people if it inconveniences you for any reason.

Or because it isn't our duty to help provide for other people. Out of kindness, yes I contribute my time and energy to soup lines around Thanksgiving and spend time with mentally retarded people around Christmass and I freely give my time and money to them.
But to give little Joey part of my tax money because he feels that he has a disorder and will live a better life as transgendered man isn't kindness.

You blame liberal values for breaking down modern society, and fail to realise that no community can exist based on your "every man for himself" idioms.

Yeah, because I'm guessing the first 160 years of American society didn't show this.

I just hate that people like you have any level of influence in the world, let alone.

Yeah because people who differ from my opinions have to be wrong.

Get it to the children. Of course that disgusts you as it would violate "free speech", yet you can do the same to homosexuals and the more hardcore "liberals" and it's perfectly acceptable.

Yay because brainwashing kids to see everything in life is all nice and peachy is great instead of them mearly tolerating something at best.

The goverment was not created to bring enjoyment to everyone. It was created to protect your natural rights as a human being and let everyone have the chance of happiness.

According to John Locke our natural rights are life, health,liberty, and possesion. Since our Constitution and the basis of human rights is based from him, i'l leave those as natural rights.

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At 5/1/06 06:34 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: Under your logic, if people were living torturous lives, it's okay if they have a 1 in a million chance of being happy, and they're alive, and have rights. The government's job is done. It's absolutely ridiculous.

What in the hell are you talking about?

You're obviously against socialised health care.

Yes, I am. As I've said repeatedly.

Got you mixed up with Begoner for a second. No idea why that happens. Maybe because I was hoping it would annoy you.

OK. Intelligent.

You're only naming some factors, not the whole picture. I don't see how never being able to attain your is vastly less scarring than your family disapproving of your decision.

Gee, lets see. Which is more scarring, not having what you want or having your family tell you you're a deviant? What a retarded question.

No it isn't. You can't just spew out "common sense" assumptions in an argument and act like they're fact. It is not a "personal decision" in the normal sense. Discovering your a TS happens anyway, you don't just decide that. And unless you get some kind of real physical treatment to fix your defect, it's incredibly scarring.

Yea, whatever. Source something.

You're quite possible one of the most insensitive human beings I've ever met so I don't even expect you to want to understand that.

I just really don't care here. You are correct. There are more important things in life.

One line assertments are not an argument. You can tell you're a conservative when your entire argument is "that's the way you are".

And a lame attack here by the way.

You have absolutely nothing to back up your argument. You're arguing from tradition, purely based on conservative values without any reasoning as to why it is valid. This is a logical fallacy, pure and simple.

Whatever. You calling me stupid far from convinces me.

People need to read thefallacyfiles.org before they argue here in future.

I don't really need your permission to talk here. Nor does anyone else.

You seem to be operating under the vastly amazing illusion that the U.S. is keeping it together better than Europe right now. But who's citizens are in outcry, exactly?

Because Europe hasn't had vast protests recently. Get real.

Gay Marriage works. Socialised Healthcare works, in most cases, regardless of whether it's the best method or not. These aren't debatable facts for anyone who isn't a xenophobe.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard today. If you hate socialised health care, you're a xenophobe.

When you're tactics consist of re-affirming unbacked statements, you've no right to criticise. If you hold views that show little or no regard for the well being of others, people will insult. They will call you a bigot. You don't like it? Start giving a shit about other people, or shut the fuck up. Nobody smart likes an evil crusader.

Yet the Republicans keep winning. Whatever. Given a choice between me and you, I can guarantee you, no one would pick you.

The reason I am angry, is, as far as your views are concerned you, are a bad person. Your views disgust me and you are indeed one of the most insensitive creatures I've ever met. A living breathing asshole. Bad people aren't the ones that angry. Bad people are slithery, slimey creatures, it wouldn't be productive for them to be angry, would it? And they nearly always anger people because of the misconception otherwise.

Quite frankly, you're a stupid cunt. You attack anyone who disagrees with you. You are vulgar, rude, and repetitive. You throw out boring arguments and spit on anyone who thinks differently than you. And you think for some reason that I seek your approval. You bitch when someone else attacks you, but have no compulsion attacking others. You have no problem trying to piss others off, but when they point out the very obvious flaws to your weak argument, you call them trolls. Hell, above you admitted you were just trying to piss me off.

How the fuck can you even say this? How about assuming that it's a choice and not hard wired, even after a test disproves you? How about assuming that people can get on with their lives when just about any valid resource online will tell you they can't? You're assuming you know how much pain they go through, what it's like, any number of things. There are any number of assumptions you made it wouldn't be worth listing them all if you're so delusional

I could give a damn bout your friends. I don't know them. And there are more important things.

None of this has anything to do with your argument. The only on topic things you've posted are baseless one line assertments. Then you spend the rest of your post attacking your methods. Again, if you don't want people to get angry, don't be insensitive. People get angry when you show no regard for their needs, or the needs of their friends. Good people get angry a lot more often than bad people, because bad people tend to be slimey. Who's shouting is nothing to do with what's right and wrong. If you're personally insulted, you may have deserved it. Ad Hominem only applies if a point is based around a personal insult. Me calling you an asshole for good reason is not a true fallacy, and there is in fact another fallacy governing the claim of Ad Hominem in such scenarios(another neo-con classic, recorded in the fallacy files).

Well, I could just be a dick and say Fuck Transsexuals to piss you off, but really I wish them no ill will. But I will never pay a dime to change someone's sexual orientation as long as there are real problems in the world. Want pain: ask a starving African how their stomach feels.

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I'm bored by you Penal.

The reason I don't get mad is because you strike me as an excessively pathetic person. You have nothing better to do than start fights with strangers on the net, trying to piss them off.

You never have anything intelligent to say. All you ever do is insult neo-cons and say nonsense. You put forward rules for debate, but they never apply to you. It's a never ending debate with a six year old.

Every thread you talk in, people leave. You offend almost everyone, including those who agree with you. It's why you've been banned twice. I simply have neither the time nor energy to read all your tripe and respond. Not that it matters because you are either too stupid or too confrontational to talk like an intelligent human being, or even a remotely civilized one. You attack everyone, even when they actually agree with you. You madam, are a angry angry troll.

So, I tell you what. You can have this thread. I'll leave it to you. Talk as long and as hard as you want about stereotypes you have about neo-cons. Cuss at me, call me a horrible person, I really don't care. Some people are intelligent enough to debate like adults and not like animals. And I can respect them usually, even if I disagree with them. You are the only person on this board I don't respect.

Spew your bullshit all you want. Just know I won't be here to read it. I am, again, done with you.

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I just did a play on this for my college..."Hidden: A Gender" by Kate Bornstein.

If any of you want to know more about this topic, I suggest reading her boks.

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At 5/2/06 12:56 AM, WolvenBear wrote: I'm bored by you Penal.

The reason I don't get mad is because you strike me as an excessively pathetic person. You have nothing better to do than start fights with strangers on the net, trying to piss them off.

You never have anything intelligent to say. All you ever do is insult neo-cons and say nonsense. You put forward rules for debate, but they never apply to you. It's a never ending debate with a six year old.

Every thread you talk in, people leave. You offend almost everyone, including those who agree with you. It's why you've been banned twice. I simply have neither the time nor energy to read all your tripe and respond. Not that it matters because you are either too stupid or too confrontational to talk like an intelligent human being, or even a remotely civilized one. You attack everyone, even when they actually agree with you. You madam, are a angry angry troll.

So, I tell you what. You can have this thread. I'll leave it to you. Talk as long and as hard as you want about stereotypes you have about neo-cons. Cuss at me, call me a horrible person, I really don't care. Some people are intelligent enough to debate like adults and not like animals. And I can respect them usually, even if I disagree with them. You are the only person on this board I don't respect.

Spew your bullshit all you want. Just know I won't be here to read it. I am, again, done with you.

At the end of the day, it's all bullshit. The difference between our ideaologies is that your model for a government will ultimately never improve anything. You refuse to support the utilisation the only efficent network to support people in need because you put your ideals over the sufferance of others.

The difference is that I actually give a shit about the world and want to make it better. I don't see how under your ridiculous model anything on a large scale could be made better. You can't rely on technology when most of your problems are social to begin with.

And that's that.

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Or because it isn't our duty to help provide for other people.

Jesus pot-smoking Christ what the fuck does that even MEAN? You're bleeting it out like well programmed drone.

Who says it's not your duty to help other people?

The problem is that something is so fucked up in the logic center of your brain that you can't see past. You're just like the morons who support power tripper admins online just because it's "their" board. Things fall apart without a valid support net, it's a fact of life. That's all well and good except for the fact that when you DON'T provide for people, they hurt and die.

Yes, you don't have to. BUT THAT MAKES YOU A BAD PERSON. Do any of you idiots understand what a "BAD" person is any more? You're all so worked up in your pathetic squabbles that you fail to see how evil the implications of many modern social and economic beliefs are. If you put ideals over the well being of humans, you are a bad person. If you push a government model that is ineffectual because you like it better than way, you are a bad person.
A "Bad" action is something which overall produces a negative effect on people, usually for a small positive gain for the perpretrator. Because ideas don't always come to pass, it's perfectly valid to judge a person by how they want to the world to be, rather than how they seem to act.

I'm sick and tired of people being stupid. Sometimes you have to take a side. Some people are very evil and a lot of people get suckered into their bullshit. All people can respond to that with is laugh at the very notion that evil people can exist in this world, while people die and suffer on the street. IT IS FUCKING INSANE.

IT IS WORTH NOTHING. You and many others are pushing your ideals in front of the well being of billions of human beings. People die and suffer because of your ideaology. I'm not angry because you disgree with me, I'm angry because you disagree with common deceny and just about anything that will ever put an end to poverty or human sufferance. You are sick, disgusting, barbaric creatures in my eyes. Do you FUCKING understand this you thick lumps of shit?

This is absolutely ridiculous. This isn't a clash of ideaology anymore, it's a clash of people who care more about their own twisted beliefs than the well being on human beings. This is serious, and it is the root of problems in the world today, in the Middle East, in the U.S., everywhere. It's the same bullshit.

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And Wolverbear, logic isn't to do with me allowing you to talk or not, you fucking strawman loving moron. If your arguments don't adhere to logic, you're wrong. No buts. These are rules which are almost mathematical in nature, and can't be changed at the drop of your penis.

So fuck this shit.

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Not to sound like an insensitive prick, but aren't there more important things my dollar could be used for than for transexuals?

There are issues with poverty and homelessness in america right now that I think outweigh the need for any provided sexchange operations. Tell you what. When poverty, homelessness, hunger, unemployment, education, and security are all taken care of, then, and only then, would I even begin to consider a new tax to cover operations for transexuals.

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At 5/2/06 01:38 PM, Pandaman64 wrote: Not to sound like an insensitive prick, but aren't there more important things my dollar could be used for than for transexuals?

There are issues with poverty and homelessness in america right now that I think outweigh the need for any provided sexchange operations. Tell you what. When poverty, homelessness, hunger, unemployment, education, and security are all taken care of, then, and only then, would I even begin to consider a new tax to cover operations for transexuals.

Many transsexuals live below the poverty line, acutally. It costs an awful lot of money and discrimination means it's hard for them to get anywhere.

And shit, it's still just a dollar. You pay for a TON of other things less important that you're not bitching about. Using your logic you should just go straight to Africa and dump your money there. Education definitely needs more funding, but $1 is piss all, regardless. You can't *just* cater for the worst off, and transsexuals ARE a bottom rung minority, or did you forget? Plenty of transsexuals are unemployed, poor, and I've known some kicked out of their homes. At least we know that if we throw money at this particular problem, it will help.

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At 5/2/06 01:43 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

At 5/2/06 01:38 PM, Pandaman64 wrote:

Many transsexuals live below the poverty line, acutally. It costs an awful lot of money and discrimination means it's hard for them to get anywhere.

So, they fall into the poverty problem?

And shit, it's still just a dollar. You pay for a TON of other things less important that you're not bitching about. Using your logic you should just go straight to Africa and dump your money there. Education definitely needs more funding, but $1 is piss all, regardless. You can't *just* cater for the worst off, and transsexuals ARE a bottom rung minority, or did you forget? Plenty of transsexuals are unemployed, poor, and I've known some kicked out of their homes. At least we know that if we throw money at this particular problem, it will help.

The problem sounds like it stems from bigotry rather than a need to fix a defect. I don't even know why an employer would know about their workers being transgendered.

You say you know some transgendered that have been kicked out of their homes. If they got this operation, would they be allowed back home, or would the parents (the ones that kicked them out I assume) be disgusted that one of their children had such an operation?

In the long term I don't see how operations help. If anyone finds out that 'tran' A used to have the opposite set of...um...'parts', then all of the same bigotries and injustices resurface.

Also, I'm a bit of a noob in the subject of 'transgendered' but couldn't it be argued that the defect is the mind's attatchment to being the opposite sex as opposed to them having the wrong genetailia (i.e., a mental defect much like homosexuality)? With that, isn't the 'cure' usually to fix the mind instead of the body?

Shit, I just know I'm gonna get blasted for this.

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I once told myself I wouldn't post in this topic again, but... well, I just have to thank Penal for literally making my eyes sting when I saw the video of hers.

That and... Penal, I'm not trying to use a logic circle on you or reverse psychology, and I'm not bing self-hating by saying this: Chill. The fuck. Out.

If someone doesn't agree with you, and they have a better reason than "OMG it descusting!!!111" or something like that, please don't resort to calling them bigots or hate-mongers.

Because at the end of the day, no matter how much you scream otherwise, you're just basically saying "Either you agree with me or you hate transexuals"

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I don't have time to read where the disscusion is right now because I have a driver's ed final soon. But have you ever been on StarCraft? B.net SC people pretend to be girls with "units" about 2/3 as they do girls. Meaning that guys want to be man/women almost as much as they do women. Worse yet, some people put in their profiles they'd rather cyber that than a girl. "That" not being an insult, because it refers to guys pretending to be he-shes.

Then again, there's alot of animal sex there too. Bunny's are fun! ^.^
Another note really quick, I've seen (by accident, friends never warn you) a guy cybering a "2yr old girl"
What has humanity come to?

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I played SC today. My name is "jamesdeansmom", but I really don't want to be a mommy, or a girl.

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Which b.net server do you guys play on, west or east coast?

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At 5/3/06 04:51 PM, GunCrave wrote: Which b.net server do you guys play on, west or east coast?

I'm on the east. I think I'll go play now.

BRB LOL

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dang that must suck man

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Transexuals, homosexuals, and all the other "differently orientated groups" should be left alone. I think that people should mind their buisness about gays and trans because honestly, it is not their decision or buisness to determine what is right and what is wrong. Honeslty, I am ok with knowing that gay people are around me, and there is no problem. Of course, if they started to "hit on me", that would be different because then, it is my buisness. I don't understand why they cannot get married. Marriage is supposed to be between two people that love eachother, and if that couple turns out to be a man with another man, it is ok.