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At 4/23/06 07:30 PM, stafffighter wrote:

At 4/23/06 07:27 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

I don't think you understand what transsexualiy is about though. It's an image thing. You're implying that MtF transsexuals are quite probably perverts, which is silly. Nobody dedicates their entire life to a "perverted" cause without making it obvious that it's a perversion.

I am doing no such thing. I am wondering as to the connection in a phycological sense. I will give a better example. An individual is in the body of a man but has the self identity of a woman. Is there a realistic chance that she will be attracted to other females?

Yes, a very high chance. Nobody really knows why this is, because there's little study done into transsexuality. The only thing we do know for sure is that it's almost definitely likely that much of the transsexual brain, in most cases, is the same as the one which they desire to be.

So Penal, what exactly are you trying to do with this emotionally-driven thread of yours? You want us to start charities so we can help transsexuals assemble to necessary funds so people with this ailment to get an operation?

Or are you trying to raise transsexual awareness? Because last time I checked gender dysphoria didn't just sneak up on the world recently like a ninja.

Perhaps you're trying to get us to be more tolerant? I don't think many people are going to be so compassionate to a group who mutilated their natural body to suit their own preferences. For this cause I'll implement the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy.

We should all be tolerant, at the least!

At 4/23/06 07:44 PM, GunCrave wrote: Perhaps you're trying to get us to be more tolerant? I don't think many people are going to be so compassionate to a group who mutilated their natural body to suit their own preferences. For this cause I'll implement the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy.

As shown by the links which you ignored since actual facts might mean you don't get to be a purebred asshole, transsexuality is a real condition and not just a "preference". Also, the use of the word "multiation" is invalid, as mutilation implies leaving a body part in an undesirable state, quite the opposite of Sexual Reassignment Surgery.

I bet a lot of people didn't think that people were going to be tolerant of a bunch of queers that stick their dick up each other's asses, either. Like most people with your "opinion", you have nothing to stand on but your own misconceptions.

Honestly, though, how could you not respect someone's desire to be something other than what they physically are? It's a disorder, dammit, not something to be ridiculed!

At 4/23/06 09:00 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Honestly, though, how could you not respect someone's desire to be something other than what they physically are? It's a disorder, dammit, not something to be ridiculed!

Thats still something to be decided among the scientific community.

At 4/23/06 09:09 PM, YankeeFli wrote:

At 4/23/06 09:00 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Honestly, though, how could you not respect someone's desire to be something other than what they physically are? It's a disorder, dammit, not something to be ridiculed!

Thats still something to be decided among the scientific community.

Not really. Did you not read the links?

At 4/23/06 09:20 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

At 4/23/06 09:09 PM, YankeeFli wrote:

At 4/23/06 09:00 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:

Not really. Did you not read the links?

Can you please repost them.

This is the main one - http://jcem.endojour..ntent/full/85/5/2034

The other link I posted was showing how "normal" women can be born with the wrong hormones, it's not really that important.

For more studies, this seems to be a decent one - http://www.trans-academics.org/ , or of course http://www.transsexual.org , though that's to be taken with a grain of salt, best to look at the pages it links to. This one's pretty good for psychological research - http://www.humboldt.edu/~mpw1/psychology/

It's hard to find transgender studies, you get a lot on a certain Mr. Bailey, or rather a lot of resources of proper psychologists and transgendered complaining about him.

At 4/23/06 09:34 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: This is the main one - http://jcem.endojour..ntent/full/85/5/2034

I'll read this one tommorow.

For more studies, this seems to be a decent one - http://www.trans-academics.org/ , or of course http://www.transsexual.org , though that's to be taken with a grain of salt, best to look at the pages it links to. This one's pretty good for psychological research - http://www.humboldt.edu/~mpw1/psychology/

And the first two I'm going to discount.

But I will read the third one tommorow.

Why are you discounting the first two? Because they're pro-trans and therefore obviously wrong? It's not like sites like straighttalk where you KNOW there's going to be a lot of made up shit. The first one of those sites was based around transgender research, I don't see why you'd discount it. Transsexual.org is run by a transsexual, but who'd know about it better then them? It's also pretty link heavy.

True, but most get it surgery on it at their more mature age. It would just suck so much for them going through high school.

At 4/23/06 10:11 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: Why are you discounting the first two? Because they're pro-trans and therefore obviously wrong?

I just want a research article from a credited non opinionated source.

It's like getting information on the Isreal-Palestine topic from a website labeled," Get the zionists out"

At 4/24/06 06:29 AM, YankeeFli wrote:

At 4/23/06 10:11 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: Why are you discounting the first two? Because they're pro-trans and therefore obviously wrong?

I just want a research article from a credited non opinionated source.

It's like getting information on the Isreal-Palestine topic from a website labeled," Get the zionists out"

No it's not. If it contains links to valid research, I hardly see how it's going to be that bad. Most "hater" sites you can tell are wrong because they propose utterly flawed arguments based in prejudice. It's not really the same.

Also, most people who *do* know about transsexuals are going to be pro-trans, because if you know enough about it, there's nothing much to be against. That's why most people refuse to hear any research on the matter, in case they're proven wrong. So it's a tough cookie.

I dont see it as a legitimate medical concern that a brain could be female and the body male and vice versa. You may THINK you should have been born female but I really dont think that means shit in the long run. That is a subjective and I would love to see objective evidence from reputable scientists and doctors that it is indeed possible to classify a brain as female or male and it is also possible to then also state these brains somehow were put in a body with the wrong sexual organs.

I mean, how the fuck would that happen if in all other respects you are a normal human being? Your brain is severly disfunctional in comparison to what your body function is but the only evidence of this is that some people feel they should be female or male? No other physical or mental problems and subjective evidence is the only availabel proof?

Fails.

And our knowledge of the brain is simply to small to say that there are indeed legitimate transexuals. So little is known of the brain I think it would be damn near impossible for a paper on this subject to be accepted into a peer reviewed journal trying to prove the legitimacy of transexuals.

But barring all that, I really dont give a flying fuck what transexuals do. They can switch their genders back as much as they want, mixing and matching sexual organs for all the hell I care, as long as it doesnt harm me and I dont have to pay for it in insurance or taxes or other bullshit like that. Give them marriage rights for all I care. Even legally declare them women or men, whatever they switch to. As long as no problems develop in society as a result of this, I really couldnt care.

But God help the transexual I ever hit on or that ever hits on me. I would fuckin explode. Yeah, and God help me also. I would feel like a total jackass if that ever happened to me.

ANYONE who cross dresses is a fag, i dont care what you say

At 4/24/06 05:30 PM, Dudeman101 wrote: ANYONE who cross dresses is a fag, i dont care what you say

Thats not Transexual.

Thats a crossdresser.

At 4/24/06 05:30 PM, Dudeman101 wrote: ANYONE who cross dresses is a fag,

So right--
That's why I'm nude...
*eye rollie*

i dont care what you say

I'm sure people who lisp and studder find you like a genius...

At 4/24/06 05:30 PM, Dudeman101 wrote: ANYONE who cross dresses is a fag,

That wouldn't make them gay, or even trans.
And what about a woman wearing pants and a shirt?

i dont care what you say

Which means you're going to cover your ears and go 'lalala' if you hear an argument?

At 4/24/06 05:29 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: I dont see it as a legitimate medical concern that a brain could be female and the body male and vice versa. You may THINK you should have been born female but I really dont think that means shit in the long run. That is a subjective and I would love to see objective evidence from reputable scientists and doctors that it is indeed possible to classify a brain as female or male and it is also possible to then also state these brains somehow were put in a body with the wrong sexual organs.

And our knowledge of the brain is simply to small to say that there are indeed legitimate transexuals. So little is known of the brain I think it would be damn near impossible for a paper on this subject to be accepted into a peer reviewed journal trying to prove the legitimacy of transexuals.

Incorrect.

http://jcem.endojour..ntent/full/85/5/2034

At least part of the MtF brain is almost exactly like that of a female.

And if someone was absolutely and completely suffering because of this condition, why do you have such a problem with $1(I'm not talking about a paycheck, just $1, presuming it costs $10,000 to cure a transsexual, $8,000 for an OP and $2,000 for HRT, and they're almost exactly 1 in 10,000, that cancels out as everyone in any given country having to donate a single dollar per generation to solving most of a TS's issues) going to helping these people? What are you going to do with that Dollar, by some cheese?

Most TS can't afford all that crap and have to live miserable for many years. Some countries DO offer it on their health service, purely because it's so rare and so severe. Many provinces in Canada do. And you know what? It works out fine.

At 4/24/06 05:57 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

At 4/24/06 05:29 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

Most TS can't afford all that crap and have to live miserable for many years. Some countries DO offer it on their health service, purely because it's so rare and so severe. Many provinces in Canada do. And you know what? It works out fine.

So we should pay our women to help these people with thier surgery then.

Right, just try to reason that one out with voters.

My question is for altanese.

Could you possibly give descriptions of transgendereds, transexuals, and transvestites?

All these homogenous sub-terms get to be a little puzzling.

At 4/24/06 05:58 PM, YankeeFli wrote:

At 4/24/06 05:57 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

At 4/24/06 05:29 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

Most TS can't afford all that crap and have to live miserable for many years. Some countries DO offer it on their health service, purely because it's so rare and so severe. Many provinces in Canada do. And you know what? It works out fine.

So we should pay our women to help these people with thier surgery then.

Right, just try to reason that one out with voters.

$1 per generation. If that was made enough noise about, and people really understood the pain involved, then yes, you would be able to reason it. Unfortunately, people tend to be more like you than fair and logical, so it's an uphill struggle.

At 4/25/06 02:21 PM, Steel_Reserve wrote: My question is for altanese.

Could you possibly give descriptions of transgendereds, transexuals, and transvestites?

Transgender, transvestite, and transsexual.

Sorry for being lazy, but when you have it right there.....

At 4/26/06 05:41 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

At 4/24/06 05:58 PM, YankeeFli wrote:

At 4/24/06 05:57 PM, Penal_Disturbance wrote:

At 4/24/06 05:29 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

$1 per generation. If that was made enough noise about, and people really understood the pain involved, then yes, you would be able to reason it. Unfortunately, people tend to be more like you than fair and logical, so it's an uphill struggle.

But according to the Medical community it's called Gender Identity Disorder.

So why should I pay my earned money for a Disorder when there's thousands of other disorders out there that aren't funded.

Fund them all, or none are funded.

the major problem I have with the whole transexual thing is it seems like they're trying to cure a mental disorder with superficial surgery. That would be the same as someone with clinical depression trying to cure it by getting a facelift, either way they're still gonna be depressed. The fact that transsexuals have elevated rates for depression and suicide is evidence of that. Personally it seems to me like the plastic surgeons who perform these operations are taking advantage of these people who would most likely be better off recieving psychological treatment rather than an expensive surgery. While I don't know for sure that people are born with the belief that they have a gender inappropriate for their body ( especially considering that gender is basically a social construct), I'm pretty sure that nobody is forced to have sexual reassignment surgery by genetic factors. As far as how they are accepted by society, I don't think the average person cares one way or another about them. Really, the only violence I've really heard that has been purposley directed at a transsexual is when a guy finds out that his girl used to have a penis.

the major problem I have with the whole transexual thing is it seems like they're trying to cure a mental disorder with superficial surgery.

It's not really a mental disorder. Or rather, if it is, it's caused by the body in the first place. GID is being shewed away in favour of "Gender Dysphoria" referring to the crippling depression TS folk experience.

Personally it seems to me like the plastic surgeons who perform these operations are taking advantage of these people who would most likely be better off recieving psychological treatment rather than an expensive surgery.

Not the case at all. Transsexuality is just the same as homosexuality, it is no more "curable", and is probably even more so hardcoded since you get less "'tweeners". The only difference is that if your gender identity rather than sexuality doesn't match your body, it can be extremely traumatic.

While I don't know for sure that people are born with the belief that they have a gender inappropriate for their body ( especially considering that gender is basically a social construct),

That's where you're totally wrong. If you read the study people aren't just born with the "belief", they're literally born with their brain wired, to some degree, female. Gender is a mental construct, if you study up on it. Gender Roles are a social construct, and those are enforced on a young TS from an early age since it would be difficult to tell without opening up their brains. But it only lasts so long.

As far as how they are accepted by society, I don't think the average person cares one way or another about them. Really, the only violence I've really heard that has been purposley directed at a transsexual is when a guy finds out that his girl used to have a penis.

Wow, you know absolutely nothing. It happens all the time. TS are one of the most targetted minorities by far.

The moral is, read before you argue.

So why should I pay my earned money for a Disorder when there's thousands of other disorders out there that aren't funded.

Fund them all, or none are funded.

Don't be a dick. You don't have to fund them all, just the more serious ones. And many of them won't cost near as much to treat. So what, you're up to paying $10 per generation? Wow, I feel so sorry for you having to part with that massive sum of money. Many of which are funded. And TS is funded in Britian and much of Canada. Because it's so rare, it's not that expensive, and technologies and techniques are getting better and better. Can you imagine how crippling $8000 would be to fork out for an operation just because you were born wrong, and a heck of a lot more for medication? They should get a helping hand at least. Otherwise, what's the point of socialised health care? Of course you probably don't believe in that.

Get over it. You're a selfish little shit who wants people to suffer just because you won't give up your $10. I don't know if there are any words for how evil minded that is.

Look, I realize this may be strange seeing as I'm trans, but...

Most cases of transsexuality are caused by a deeper, more important problem. Most transsexuals STILL feel like crap even after surgery. If someone still wants surgery after therapy, then go ahead, but there is no reason to think that physical surgery can solve a deeper mental issue.

An anorexic thinks they are fat no matter how skinny they really are; does that make it a physical problem that can be solved with surgery?

At 4/27/06 07:27 AM, altanese_mistress wrote: Look, I realize this may be strange seeing as I'm trans, but...

Most cases of transsexuality are caused by a deeper, more important problem. Most transsexuals STILL feel like crap even after surgery. If someone still wants surgery after therapy, then go ahead, but there is no reason to think that physical surgery can solve a deeper mental issue.

An anorexic thinks they are fat no matter how skinny they really are; does that make it a physical problem that can be solved with surgery?

That's only if you think that transsexuality is solely a mental thing, which it's not. If most trans still feel like crap it's because of how others treat them, or treated them, which can be very scarring. And it's never going to be easy to change sex.

Most transsexuals I know lighten up *before* surgery. Still not as happy as the general populace in general by far(though some of them are), but I don't think by the time surgey is finished they're still "miserable". Not if they pass, anyway. I haven't seen it in the people I Know. at all.

Transsexuality isn't "caused" by anything, but having a brain that is wired female in all the right places with a body that's completely the wrong gender. Other issues and disorders can come as a *resultant* of this, not the other way around. I think transsexuality is a slightly larger brain mess than most "deep seated issues".

This kind of proves for me that you do have skewed views on your own condition, though.

At 4/27/06 11:55 AM, Penal_Disturbance wrote: Transsexuality isn't "caused" by anything, but having a brain that is wired female in all the right places with a body that's completely the wrong gender. Other issues and disorders can come as a *resultant* of this, not the other way around. I think transsexuality is a slightly larger brain mess than most "deep seated issues".

This kind of proves for me that you do have skewed views on your own condition, though.

No, I'm just willing to accept any possibilities. If this condition is caused by something else, why go and waste my money on surgery if I'll still feel inadequate afterwards? Granted, we focus far too much on the mind, but who is to say that someone truly wants to be another gender or it is a resultant of another mental issue?

Why NOT go through therapy to see if its a bigger problem? If the persons brain really is out of sync with the body, the therapy won't do any harm anyways.