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It's already outlined in the paper I posted at the beginning of this thread; it also talks about how Israel is immune from criticism because whoever does so gets labelled an "anti-semite".

At 3/21/06 07:32 PM, Begoner wrote:

acting as a foothold for democracy.

So is Palestine, but we are taking aid away from them. So is Iran, but we're threatening to invade them.

Palestine voted in a terrorist organization. Iran is a whiny bitch that hangs young girls for getting raped and threatens to kill off the western civlization.

Israel is the only nation worth living in the Middle East.

At 3/21/06 09:08 PM, MarkyX wrote: Palestine voted in a terrorist organization. Iran is a whiny bitch that hangs young girls for getting raped and threatens to kill off the western civlization.

Dude their hes a jew hating nazi dont bother

I concur with Mark.

At 3/21/06 09:09 PM, zeus_almighty wrote: Dude their hes a jew hating nazi dont bother

Oh, I'm sure we all know that. But we can at least TRY to bring him back to logic.

At 3/21/06 09:08 PM, MarkyX wrote: Palestine voted in a terrorist organization. Iran is a whiny bitch that hangs young girls for getting raped and threatens to kill off the western civlization.

Israel is the only nation worth living in the Middle East.

Some people phrase it more eloquently, but this is what the sheep of the Western world (including nearly everyone in this forum) are taught to believe.

At 3/21/06 09:11 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:08 PM, MarkyX wrote: Palestine voted in a terrorist organization. Iran is a whiny bitch that hangs young girls for getting raped and threatens to kill off the western civlization.

Israel is the only nation worth living in the Middle East.

Some people phrase it more eloquently, but this is what the sheep of the Western world (including nearly everyone in this forum) are taught to believe.

Explain?

Please, explain. HAMAS was behind many of the attacks on israel

Iran?

http://www.faithfree..cement/601081013.htm

http://news.bbc.co.u..dle_east/4295111.stm

http://direland.type..iran_executes_2.html

Please bitch, how am I brainwashed?

This has to stop.
I desperately try to not enter conflicts about the influence of American Jews because where I live, Jews are the majority. My highschool has so many neo-conservative Jews, it might as well be giant JDL convention. So my gut reaction is that Jews are in control, but if you look at the issue logically, that really isn't true. They represent 2% of the population. There hasn't been a single Jewish president, explain how that falls into this conspiracy. Nor do all Jews support hawkish foreign policy. Take Stephen Spielberg for example. Conservatives were outraged over Munich because the Palistinians weren't wearing plastic fangs. The fact is, Israel is our friend, and they're a friend with no real ethical boundries when it comes to dealing with their enemies. And that kind of thing is sexy for neo-cons of all religions.

At 3/21/06 09:11 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:08 PM, MarkyX wrote:

Some people phrase it more eloquently, but this is what the sheep of the Western world (including nearly everyone in this forum) are taught to believe.

Right.

So Hammas isn't a Terrorist Organization.

And Iran isn't calling for the Destrection of Isreal, my Fuhrer.

It should also be noted that Hamas are a lot like the Irish Republicans in the sense of how they work. While they both support terrorists for sure, both have completely legitamite political and charitable wings. When Britain talked with the political wing of the IRA, it led to a cease fire, and now a de-arming, so needless violence has stopped by negotiating with a terrorist organization. Why shouldn't we take the same approach to Hamas?

At 3/21/06 09:19 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

Why shouldn't we take the same approach to Hamas?

There has been frequent cease-fires.

Then some bus or people would be suicide bombed.

At 3/21/06 09:20 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:19 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

Why shouldn't we take the same approach to Hamas?

There has been frequent cease-fires.

Then some bus or people would be suicide bombed.

There's been only one cease fire concerning Hamas, it extends from 2004 to 2014, and has been violated once by Hamas, and a few times by Israel. So that's definately an improvement over a full out guerilla warfare, isn't it?

At 3/21/06 09:27 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:20 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:19 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

There's been only one cease fire concerning Hamas, it extends from 2004 to 2014, and has been violated once by Hamas, and a few times by Israel. So that's definately an improvement over a full out guerilla warfare, isn't it?

True.

But it will never fix itself. The Jews will never let go of the West Bank. And by all accounts of Military Custom and the like they own it.

But the thing about owning the land, is putting down the Native People and whatever troops they had, like what we did to the Native Americans.

At 3/21/06 09:30 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote: True.

But it will never fix itself. The Jews will never let go of the West Bank. And by all accounts of Military Custom and the like they own it.

But the thing about owning the land, is putting down the Native People and whatever troops they had, like what we did to the Native Americans.

That was true in some case, but generally history doesn't look to favorably of our treatment of the Native Americans. The violence may never stop, but no violence ever has, unless one people is completely eliminated there will always be a conflict to some extent, but Israel an Hamas start with diplomacy now. There have been historical precedents that say such violence can lead to peaceful political discourse as opposed to complete destruction. What I think is most important in solving this conflict would be for the Hamas to put pressure on Islamic Jihad to create a similar cease fire agreement.

At 3/21/06 09:36 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:30 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

What I think is most important in solving this conflict would be for the Hamas to put pressure on Islamic Jihad to create a similar cease fire agreement.

Thats true to some Extent. But the best way that I could see is something straight from Tom Clancy.

Seperate Jeruselem from the West Bank. Now give the West Bank to Palestine so they can create a state.

Jerusalem will be ruled by an intermidiate Power that both area's can respect, The Vatican.Jerusalem will be guarded by the Swiss Guards as It's Police Force. The City would become a Global City that Is capital to Both Isreal and the Palestine State.

The government of the city would be ruled by a joint commitee to some sorts that contain the Best and most Godly members of the Hebrew Faith, Christian Faith and Islamic Faith.

At 3/21/06 09:42 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:36 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:30 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

What I think is most important in solving this conflict would be for the Hamas to put pressure on Islamic Jihad to create a similar cease fire agreement.

Thats true to some Extent. But the best way that I could see is something straight from Tom Clancy.

Seperate Jeruselem from the West Bank. Now give the West Bank to Palestine so they can create a state.

Jerusalem will be ruled by an intermidiate Power that both area's can respect, The Vatican.Jerusalem will be guarded by the Swiss Guards as It's Police Force. The City would become a Global City that Is capital to Both Isreal and the Palestine State.

The government of the city would be ruled by a joint commitee to some sorts that contain the Best and most Godly members of the Hebrew Faith, Christian Faith and Islamic Faith.

That seems plausible and definately well thought out. However, I'm not too sure as to how willing either party would be to give up their most holy city to Catholicism.
Also, neutralizing control of the centerfold of the conflict may seem that it would help the situation, but considering how long the fighting has gone on, the violence would move on its own momentum regardless of whether or not there's a legitamite cause.
The problem isn't as much what the fighters say their fighting for, as much as it is their simple hatred for eachother is. Unless the fighters themselves are neutralized, we can't hope for a solution. Such hatred will remain, even in neutralized combatants, but its likeliness to be passed on to the next generation decreases greatly. Which is where I see the only hope for peace, with the next generation.

At 3/21/06 09:54 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:42 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:36 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote:

At 3/21/06 09:30 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

That seems plausible and definately well thought out. However, I'm not too sure as to how willing either party would be to give up their most holy city to Catholicism.
Also, neutralizing control of the centerfold of the conflict may seem that it would help the situation, but considering how long the fighting has gone on, the violence would move on its own momentum regardless of whether or not there's a legitamite cause.

The problem isn't as much what the fighters say their fighting for, as much as it is their simple hatred for eachother is. Unless the fighters themselves are neutralized, we can't hope for a solution.

There was a group in the 90's called Seeds of Peace that brough together some Children from Isreal and Palestine for a Summer Camp in the US. Thier children soon got past thier relative differences and learned to appreciate and like each other.

If this can work for the Children, why not the rest. People should take an example from the Children.

http://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Seeds_of_Peace

At 3/21/06 09:02 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: How dare you claim that American Jews are shaping american foreign policy! What, do you believe in the worldwide Jewish conspiracy? There is SOMETHING WRONG HERE! This paper is not only controversial, it's bullshit. I'll refute it, if you'd like.

I love how quick everyone is to defend Israel, as though any criticism of it were the same as tossing Jews into gas chambers. If you think it's crazy to suggest that Israeli lobbies are extremely powerful, you've got your head in the sand. Perhaps you prefer wikipedia's information? It says right at the top of the article that it's considered to be "one of the most powerful political lobbies in the United States."

So go right ahead and slam me with your "GO AAWAY YUO NAZI PUNK!!!!!!!!" because despite facts, anyone who utters a peep of criticism about Israel's influence must be an insane anti-Semite, right?

At 3/21/06 10:04 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote: If this can work for the Children, why not the rest. People should take an example from the Children.

Psychology. Children are much more succeptable to differences in others and have little to no political biases to base their relationships on. Adults on the other hand have their minds made up both consciously and subconsciously, so their biases that keep them in such bigoted mindsets are almost completely irreversable. Similar to the way one might develop certain psychological dysfunctions.

At 3/21/06 08:20 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote:

If you wish to be ignorant then by all means go ahead. But for those who have a thirst for knowledge, the paper I posted should be delicious.

ignorance is better than being stuffed full of neo nazi propaganda.

At 3/21/06 09:07 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote: It's already outlined in the paper I posted at the beginning of this thread; it also talks about how Israel is immune from criticism because whoever does so gets labelled an "anti-semite".

and yet, israel is still criticized...even by our allies.

Seeds of Peace.

You know, that is pretty badass that they managed to do that. Finally, an organization that does something useful.

At 3/21/06 10:16 PM, Joodah wrote: ignorance is better than being stuffed full of neo nazi propaganda.

I'll tell you the same thing I told MacKid earlier, neither the authors nor the publisher of the paper have anything to do with Nazism, facism, anti-semitism, etc.

The next time someone proclaims that this paper is "Nazi", I would like them to link us to some sort of proof to back up their claims.

I have sorta thought along thest lines before. I dont know WHY Israel is our ally (probably because we largely are responsible for thier creation after WWII {The West}) but they are our ally. You support your allies through thick and thin.

And heres one thing I can say for Israel I cant say for most other nations there. They arent extremist, reactionary fools. I trust them.

At 3/21/06 08:47 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote: Funny thing is, if you switch hatred for Blacks and Jews with hatred for Muslims and Nazis, this forum is basically Stormfront. Lol, as if hate is all of a sudden something dramatically different when directed against an unpopular target.

I dont think Stormfront would support Muslims to much there bro. LOL and like anyone cares if we hate on Nazis? Nazi is something you choose to be. Black aint.

At 3/21/06 08:07 PM, Begoner wrote: In that respect, Iran is more of a democracy than the US. And Iran's elections are based on the popular vote, making them more fair and balanced.

Your Iranian aret you? Between this post and that bullshit you trust Iran with a nuke more than Israel, you must be.

Most of what has been said here has very little to do with the points the authors of the article that was quoted in the first post were making: the Israeli lobby is undermining democracy, for example by labeling all critics as anti-Semites. It makes the US look hypocritical when it passes judgement on other nations regarding human rights, and it's conduct has even been harmful to Israel itself, because the fact that they've persuaded the US government to advocate an expansionist agenda have only decreased the chances of reaching peace in the region. Ah well.

At 3/21/06 07:30 PM, Joodah wrote: in fact, israel is probably the best thing to ever happen to that region.

This sort of holds relevance to an earlier discussion, but tell that to the Palestinian Arabs who were purged after 1948. I sort of doubt that their standards of living improved after they, or at least the majority of them, were kicked out of their houses to make space for Kibbutzim and related settlements.

At 3/21/06 09:08 PM, MarkyX wrote: Palestine voted in a terrorist organization.

So? Even if we ignore the fact that Hamas has offered a long-term truce with Israel and hasn't been involved in attacks against Israeli civilians for over a year, then how does electing an organisation that targets civilians make a country any less democratic? They aren't democratic because they don't elect who you want them to elect?

It all depends on what you define as "terrorism". Is bulldozing houses or destroying ports and airfields as retribution for earlier mortar attacks and bombings not terrorism as well? How about taking out leaders by launching missiles into crowds? "Whoops, we killed a few bystanders. What a tragic accident". These are actions aimed at people who aren't directly responsible for earlier afgression, carried out to scare potential rebels. That's also "terrorism". That makes Israel a state which carries out acts of terror, and it's citizens who elect governments that condone this are therefore no better than the Palestinians who elected Hamas.

Iran is a whiny bitch that hangs young girls for getting raped and threatens to kill off the western civlization.

Dude, get over yourself. Quote me a source where Ahmadinejad threatened to kill off the entire West or don't post shit like this. Immature hyperboles like these don't exactly stimulate serious discussion which was unfortunately already rare on this first page of this thread. "bush wants 2 kill all muslims!!1 omgomgomg!"

damn still up to your old tricks I see

At 3/21/06 09:42 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote: Jerusalem will be ruled by an intermidiate Power that both area's can respect, The Vatican.Jerusalem will be guarded by the Swiss Guards as It's Police Force. The City would become a Global City that Is capital to Both Isreal and the Palestine State.

None of the Arabs will agree to that. And I don't see much sense in turning over Jerusalem to the Church.

the Israeli lobby has always treated congress as its "bitch".the Israeli lobby throws money all the time and ignoring the fact that what they are doing is making problems worse.they can get their country excused from its aggressive and violent practises like shooting un armed children and blowing up entire buildings deep in Palestinian territory.

At 3/22/06 03:11 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:

None of the Arabs will agree to that. And I don't see much sense in turning over Jerusalem to the Church.

i'm with gunny on this. when i went to the church of the holy sepulchure in jerusalem, they have an interesting decoration: there is a couple HUNDRED year old ladder on the roof, where they caught a priest cleaning the windows. the reason it is still up there is that the different sects of christianity cannot agree on who controls that part of the church.

At 3/21/06 11:42 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote:

I'll tell you the same thing I told MacKid earlier, neither the authors nor the publisher of the paper have anything to do with Nazism, facism, anti-semitism, etc.

The next time someone proclaims that this paper is "Nazi", I would like them to link us to some sort of proof to back up their claims.

i'm not claiming that it is nazi, i'm claiming that you are a nazi. and so almost any information you bring up on this topic will either be:
a) slanted to your angle,
b) linked to by your websites like stormfront or anus,
or c) made up by the people who run said sites.