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There is a moral dimension here as well. Thanks to the Lobby, the United States has become the de facto enabler of Israeli expansion in the Occupied Territories, making it complicit in the crimes perpetrated against the Palestinians. This situation undercuts Washington’s efforts to promote democracy abroad and makes it look hypocritical when it presses other states to respect human rights. US efforts to limit nuclear proliferation appear equally hypocritical given its willingness to accept Israel’s nuclear arsenal, which only encourages Iran and others to seek a similar capability.

Besides, the Lobby’s campaign to quash debate about Israel is unhealthy for democracy. Silencing sceptics by organising blacklists and boycotts – or by suggesting that critics are anti-semites – violates the principle of open debate on which democracy depends. The inability of Congress to conduct a genuine debate on these important issues paralyses the entire process of democratic deliberation. Israel’s backers should be free to make their case and to challenge those who disagree with them, but efforts to stifle debate by intimidation must be roundly condemned.

http://www.lrb.co.uk..6/print/mear01_.html

[ This is an article on the controversial new paper John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt released on the Israeli lobby and how it has power that extends beyond what most Americans would naturally comprehend. Even worse is that it (the lobby) shapes American foreign policy in such a way that it is not in accordance with American values or even their interests! ]

Wow, this is so new.

The lobby only has as much power as the people who listen to it and accommodate it. The politicians who would do anything for a higher approval rating are the ones to blame for the extremely pro-Israel US position.

ghengis, you are a fucking idiot.
just because it is israel and there are jews living there does not mean it is bad. in fact, israel is probably the best thing to ever happen to that region. it allows the us to maintain a presence in the M.E., and it also is another highly advanced nation acting as a foothold for democracy.

acting as a foothold for democracy.

So is Palestine, but we are taking aid away from them. So is Iran, but we're threatening to invade them.

At 3/21/06 07:32 PM, Begoner wrote:

acting as a foothold for democracy.

So is Palestine, but we are taking aid away from them. So is Iran, but we're threatening to invade them.

Iran isn't a democracy, all presidential candiates must be approved by the council of Guardians.

So in effect your choices for president and his views are extremely limited.

At 3/21/06 07:30 PM, Joodah wrote: in fact, israel is probably the best thing to ever happen to that region.

Here is another part of the article I would strongly urge NG users to consider for it touches upon an ugly truth concealed by the pro-Israeli Western media:

Israel’s backers also portray it as a country that has sought peace at every turn and shown great restraint even when provoked. The Arabs, by contrast, are said to have acted with great wickedness. Yet on the ground, Israel’s record is not distinguishable from that of its opponents. Ben-Gurion acknowledged that the early Zionists were far from benevolent towards the Palestinian Arabs, who resisted their encroachments – which is hardly surprising, given that the Zionists were trying to create their own state on Arab land. In the same way, the creation of Israel in 1947-48 involved acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, massacres and rapes by Jews, and Israel’s subsequent conduct has often been brutal, belying any claim to moral superiority. Between 1949 and 1956, for example, Israeli security forces killed between 2700 and 5000 Arab infiltrators, the overwhelming majority of them unarmed. The IDF murdered hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war in both the 1956 and 1967 wars, while in 1967, it expelled between 100,000 and 260,000 Palestinians from the newly conquered West Bank, and drove 80,000 Syrians from the Golan Heights.

So if neither strategic nor moral arguments can account for America’s support for Israel, how are we to explain it?

http://www.lrb.co.uk..6/print/mear01_.html

At 3/21/06 07:32 PM, Begoner wrote: So is Palestine, but we are taking aid away from them. So is Iran, but we're threatening to invade them.

You bring shame to our state.

why should i read anyhting you say on this topic, when you have a swastika as your picture, you constantly link information through a site called anus, and you quote websites more than speak?

At 3/21/06 07:38 PM, ThinksWithBrain wrote: Did you screw a black dude yet?

I bet he didnt but he should then he would shut the fuck up.

Iran isn't a democracy, all presidential candiates must be approved by the council of Guardians.

Iran is a democracy as much as the US is a democracy. All candidates in the US have to be supported by either one of the two major parties to stand any chance of winning. In that respect, Iran is more of a democracy than the US. And Iran's elections are based on the popular vote, making them more fair and balanced.

You bring shame to our state.

Are you going to back that up with an argument, or simply state it as fact?

At 3/21/06 08:07 PM, Begoner wrote: Are you going to back that up with an argument, or simply state it as fact?

I dont need an argument,for it is fact

I dont need an argument,for it is fact

Are you really that anti-Muslim that you will not acknowledge that both Palestine and Iran have a democratic form of government!? That is a fact.

At 3/21/06 08:12 PM, Begoner wrote: Are you really that anti-Muslim that you will not acknowledge that both Palestine and Iran have a democratic form of government!? That is a fact.

Dude how dare you say I hate muslims?! Im down with the nation BLACK POWER.

But seriously is the race card the best argument you can make?

But seriously is the race card the best argument you can make?

You denied that Palestine and Iran had democratic governments, so I drew a conclusion based on your unwillingness to give reasons for your opinion or support it in any way and assumed that you were anti-Muslim. Are you?

At 3/21/06 08:01 PM, Joodah wrote: why should i read...bitch...bitch...bitch

If you wish to be ignorant then by all means go ahead. But for those who have a thirst for knowledge, the paper I posted should be delicious.

At 3/21/06 06:26 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote: [Anti-Israel stuff]

http://www.lrb.co.uk..6/print/mear01_.html

[ This is an article on the controversial new paper John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt released on the Israeli lobby and how it has power that extends beyond what most Americans would naturally comprehend. Even worse is that it (the lobby) shapes American foreign policy in such a way that it is not in accordance with American values or even their interests! ]

That's not true at all. Mighty_Genghis, you bring the Nazis here and you bring the believers in the "ZOG" here and present their views as if it was truth. I wish they would SUBSTANTIATE their crap.

At 3/21/06 07:32 PM, Begoner wrote:

acting as a foothold for democracy.

So is Palestine, but we are taking aid away from them. So is Iran, but we're threatening to invade them.

Are you serious?!?

At 3/21/06 08:18 PM, Begoner wrote: You denied that Palestine and Iran had democratic governments, so I drew a conclusion based on your unwillingness to give reasons for your opinion or support it in any way and assumed that you were anti-Muslim. Are you?

Most people who claim to support democracy but deny the legitimacy of the Hamas, Palestinian, or Iranian democratic elections are anti-Muslims (currently the politically correct type of racism in the Western world).

read my sig

At 3/21/06 08:20 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:
That's not true at all. Mighty_Genghis, you bring the Nazis here...

I'm confused "GSgt_Liberal", please explain to myself and the other members of this board how the The London Review of Books or John Mearsheimer somehow relate to Nazism.

And to the other reactionary members of this board:

Please look at the article and/or source before posting the first thing that comes off the top of your head.

At 3/21/06 08:23 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote: Most people who claim to support democracy but deny the legitimacy of the Hamas, Palestinian, or Iranian democratic elections are anti-Muslims (currently the politically correct type of racism in the Western world).

So I guess its hate the jews or hate the muslims with you?

At 3/21/06 08:37 PM, zeus_almighty wrote: So I guess its hate the jews or hate the muslims with you?

That is the general mindset of this conflict.

At 3/21/06 08:44 PM, The_Last_Cynic wrote: That is the general mindset of this conflict.

I was hopeing we could avoid that truth for a little bit longer.

At 3/21/06 08:07 PM, Begoner wrote:

Iran is a democracy as much as the US is a democracy. All candidates in the US have to be supported by either one of the two major parties to stand any chance of winning. In that respect, Iran is more of a democracy than the US. And Iran's elections are based on the popular vote, making them more fair and balanced.

To have a majority of the chance yes, but we don't restrict the presidential hopefulls because thier views go against Islam.

In Iran, the presidential Hopefulls have to be accepted by the Council. So any chance of rejuvanation and sanity to this state is extremley cut.

Thats probally a reason why the populace vote less then the United States.

For the parliamentary elections of February 20, 2004, the Ministry of Interior Affairs announced a 50% turnout, the lowest in any general election since 1979

In Tehran and some of the major cities, all of the seats were taken back by conservatives over reformists. This swing was caused by widespread abstention from the local elections. In Tehran only about 10% of the electorate voted, following appeals by reformist groups.

http://en.wikipedia...Political_conditions

Plus the fact of widespread Vote rigging and that they won't allow the UN into thier country for the vote.

At 3/21/06 08:37 PM, zeus_almighty wrote: So I guess its hate the jews or hate the muslims with you?

Hate is for Underman, and it is something we leave behind when we go Beyond Good and Evil. Funny thing is, if you switch hatred for Blacks and Jews with hatred for Muslims and Nazis, this forum is basically Stormfront. Lol, as if hate is all of a sudden something dramatically different when directed against an unpopular target.

At 3/21/06 08:47 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote: Hate is for Underman, and it is something we leave behind when we go Beyond Good and Evil. Funny thing is, if you switch hatred for Blacks and Jews with hatred for Muslims and Nazis, this forum is basically Stormfront. Lol, as if hate is all of a sudden something dramatically different when directed against an unpopular target.

So you get a taste of some brown sugar yet? HA MY PLAN WORKED I LURED YOU OUT TO FINALLY ASK THAT QUESTION AND BE COMEPLETELY SURE YOU WOULD NOTICE! Oh and I hope I could have you killed or something one day(fbi keep in mind I dont literally mean kill just a little assault here and there)

At 3/21/06 08:47 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote:

Hate is for Underman, and it is something we leave behind when we go Beyond Good and Evil.

As a socialist, that already pisses me off to no end, but I can assure you that when you cut out the underman, the middle class just takes its place.

Funny thing is, if you switch hatred for Blacks and Jews with hatred for Muslims and Nazis, this forum is basically Stormfront. Lol, as if hate is all of a sudden something dramatically different when directed against an unpopular target.

That would be the definition of unpopularity. Seriously though. Why do you hate all Jews, have you ever met one?

Miscegenation is definately the way to go for you

At 3/21/06 08:35 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote:

At 3/21/06 08:20 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:
That's not true at all. Mighty_Genghis, you bring the Nazis here...

I'm confused "GSgt_Liberal", please explain to myself and the other members of this board how the The London Review of Books or John Mearsheimer somehow relate to Nazism.

You bring the Nazis here. Click your sig. This "underman" crap is something you bring here as well. Oh, wait, that's just racist.

You must accept the fact that the idea that the pro-Israel lobby controls american foreign policy is completely ludicrous. If not, substantiate what you have to say.

By the way:

Israel is our only real ally in the middle east, it's the only democracy in the middle east, it's the only nation in the middle east that doesn't persecute homosexuals and one of the few, if I'm not mistaken,, women can vote. The list goes on and on. Israel is a GOOD nation. They are our allies!

At 3/21/06 06:26 PM, Mighty_Genghis wrote: This is an article on the controversial new paper John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt released on the Israeli lobby and how it has power that extends beyond what most Americans would naturally comprehend. Even worse is that it (the lobby) shapes American foreign policy in such a way that it is not in accordance with American values or even their interests! ]

How dare you claim that American Jews are shaping american foreign policy! What, do you believe in the worldwide Jewish conspiracy? There is SOMETHING WRONG HERE! This paper is not only controversial, it's bullshit. I'll refute it, if you'd like.

Your anti-semitic drivel is unneccesary. I'll just route you to where you should be.

Go here, it'll help you understand what's REALLY happening.