Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

Disclaimer: This posting is neither a rant nor a spam. If shall anyone finds the point
of view and/or informations presented in the following text, I hereby apologise as
well as to emphasise that the offense is not intentional. Since my native tongue is
not English, I beseech the linguistic tolerance from the readers upon any language
errors within this text.

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Not all muslims are terrorists and, not all christians are saints. No matter which
religious faith one selects, the individual is still a member of the human race. Each
so-called Islamic country interpret the Islamic Laws differently, and thus, each one
of them will have different results upon the same case.

It is actually an Islamic Teaching that, all muslims are to be tolerating and merciful.
The Taliban failed not only as muslims, but also, as human beings; however, one
cannot judge the whole religion based upon one-fourth of its followers. There are
noble muslims, only if one can see with a sight unclouded with hatred.

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Deus Voluntas Miserere

At 3/20/06 06:03 PM, Maus wrote:

One of the most difficult things for people (individually, and culturally) to understand is that what is acceptable and makes perfect sense to them is utterly insane and maybe even reprehensible to others.

Your post reminds me of "Around the world in 80 days." (The book, not the crappy movie).........

At one point, Phileas Fogg lands in India. There's a funeral taking place in which a man's body is being burned. His wife is standing a bit close to the fire, and seems very nervous. Mr. Fogg asks one of the people there, "What's going on?" Someone tells him that in India, it's customary for a widow to throw herself on the funeral fire; once her husband has died. (Obviously it doesn't apply vice-versa). Mr. Fogg is also told that it is customary for the relatives of the husband to toss the wife into the fire, if she doesn't do so willingly......... And this particular widow doesn't want to do it!

Mr. Fogg is so outraged at this ingrained bit of cultural insanity, that he runs out of the crowd and saves the widow by carrying her off to the safety of his ballon. I guess in modern times, Mr. Fogg would be accused of forcing his Western beliefs and morals on the people of India. Rather than thought of as a hero, for saving a woman from being burned alive!

Sorry Maus, but I call things as I see them. Some things are not about Cultural or individual differences. Some things in this insane world ARE as simple as right and wrong. It's wrong to burn someone alive because her husband died. It's wrong to execute someone because they now believe something else. Just because an entire nation has decided that murdering something is perfectly fine, that doesn't mean I have to accept their mass-insanity. Also, I'm a Realist; I know there's nothing I can do to stop this poor man from being executed......... But that fact alone isn't going to prevent me from expressing my outrage about this man's likely demise.........

I can't physically do something about it, so I just remain quiet and pretend that what's happening is okay? All because an entire nation says it's okay?......... Sorry, not happening. I've never been part of a group, I've never given in to peer pressure, and I never gave a damn if people liked me or not. That's the way I am. If I see something that's a bear, I'm going to call it a bear. I don't care if EVERYONE around me says and believes that it's a large man, wearing a fur coat, and needing a shave! Damn it, it's a bear! If an entire culture says it's not wrong to murder a man because he doesn't agree with them, well; I'm not going to pretend it's okay just because it's part of their belief-system! I'm not going to be part of the mass-insanity.......... Damn it; it's a bear!

Fine, I can respect that. But also understand this: things that we do in our everyday lives are seen as just as outrageous and horrible and horrifying and inhuman by them. It goes both ways. We would not welcome some other country barreling in here and changing our society to conform to their code of mores and folkways. So why would they? And why should they, more importantly?

If our way is so much better and nicer for everyone, we've done a piss poor job of convincing people of that fact. Indeed, we're seen as a bully and a not-so-nice country by many.

I'm not saying that the dude should be killed. far from that. What I AM saying, is that in order for these sorts of things to cease, we need to fix our own problems, and lead by example. Not by the very force and intimidation we deplore in others.

At 3/20/06 11:17 PM, Maus wrote:

If our way is so much better and nicer for everyone, we've done a piss poor job of convincing people of that fact. Indeed, we're seen as a bully and a not-so-nice country by many.

I'm not saying that the dude should be killed. far from that. What I AM saying, is that in order for these sorts of things to cease, we need to fix our own problems, and lead by example. Not by the very force and intimidation we deplore in others.

Honestly, I can't think of anything I do on a regular basis that would cause other cultures to hate me. With the obvious exception of not being a Muslim....... But like I said before, that's not a good reason to hate someone.

I agree with you about the poor job of convicing people that things are better here. And America is far from perfect but, unlike Moscow, you really don't have to be afraid of that late-night knock on the door. You don't have to worry about which one of your neighbors is a KGB informant. You don't have to keep your mouth shut if one of your friends disappears in the middle of the night. You don't have to wait in line for 6 hours to buy bread. You don't have to use a newspaper as toilet paper because the store ran out.......... And, you can be open & honest about your Faith; without worrying that your Government might kill you because of your honesty.

America isn't perfect, we do need to fix our own problems, and do a better job of leading by example........ But American still has more freedom than a lot of other places in the world......... You know, I just thought of something. One of the reasons why other cultures hate us is because of all the freedom found in America. One of the reasons why Muslim nations hate us is because women are not treated like cattle, not forced to marry a man they don't love, not forced to cook & clean as slaves for their husbands........

Is that what you meant by other nations hating us because of the things we do on a regular basis?........ Here's a thought that brought a smile to my face........ Everytime YOU open up a book, someone gets pissed off because they believe women should reman illiterate.

Oh and here's the best part, everyone who hates Muslims; they'll be able to point to this incident (If the guy gets executed) and be able to say, "Look, here's a perfect example of how ALL Muslims are blood-thirsty lunatics; and how their religion is based on insanity." This poor guy getting executed is the best thing that could happen to every Muslim-Hater in the world!

You say that like things like this don't happen multiple times a day in the muslim world in the name of their shitty religion. Quit listening to what celebrities say you soft bellied liberal. Fact of the matter is Islam, even though it theoretically COULD be a peaceful religion (it never will), is being used as a tool to brainwash weak beaten down people into violence. Why the fuck should anyone other than Muslims not hate it? Fuck being P.C. for the sake of being P.C.

At 3/21/06 12:49 AM, RegurgitateDAbortioN wrote:

Oh and here's the best part, everyone who hates Muslims; they'll be able to point to this incident (If the guy gets executed) and be able to say, "Look, here's a perfect example of how ALL Muslims are blood-thirsty lunatics; and how their religion is based on insanity." This poor guy getting executed is the best thing that could happen to every Muslim-Hater in the world!

You say that like things like this don't happen multiple times a day in the muslim world in the name of their shitty religion. Quit listening to what celebrities say you soft bellied liberal. Fact of the matter is Islam, even though it theoretically COULD be a peaceful religion (it never will), is being used as a tool to brainwash weak beaten down people into violence. Why the fuck should anyone other than Muslims not hate it? Fuck being P.C. for the sake of being P.C.

LOL .......... You should have read this entire thread, before posting! You calling me a soft bellied liberal is like calling Mike Tyson a neo-Nazi skinhead! I don't give a damn about being Politically Correct...... Once again, you would have known that if you had bothered to read this entire thread. Just a bit of helpful advice, so that next time; you don't come off looking like a silly n00b.

At 3/21/06 12:15 AM, Monocrom wrote: But like I said before, that's not a good reason to hate someone.

Did I say hate? No, I did not. I said we do things they find appalling. Sharia Law can be enforced without nut jobs. The EXTREMIST NUT JOBS are who hate us, not the average Muslim. Likewise, with stories like this, all you see are the extremists. Now before you protest that statement, check out the thread in this forum about the judge taking a child away from his mother for being part of a performance art group. It goes. Both ways. For every gasp inducing story you read about what happens when Sharia Rule is dispensed, there are hunderds more that end quetly and as tidily as any thing of that nature can be.

I agree with you about the poor job of convicing people that things are better here. And America is far from perfect but, unlike Moscow...

That's all well and good, but this is not about how you perceive America to be so much better than the Soviet Union. Besides which fact, Moscow is decidedly more Western than Middle Eastern, and has been since at least the time of Peter the Great. At any rate, the same fears you described ran rampant here, as well. We called it the Red Scare. I'm quite sure you've heard about it. Even today, there are murmurs about just what our esteemed elected and appointed officials are up to these days, what with the War on Terror. People do disappear.

But American still has more freedom than a lot of other places in the world

Again, these are things that YOU see as bad because they don't have a place in our society. What seems like just enough freedom to us, is WAY too much for them. It's like that for a lot of other cultures v. American. We get away with doing a lot of things. Likewise, other cultures do not understand how we find it perfectly okay to imprison people for petty crimes, and why we have crazy strict rules about who can have sex when and with who and in what places. Not everyone wants to live like that. To them, the way they deal with things is part of an organised social construct that has served them well for hundreds of years, and even millenia. Again, I did not say hate.

Is that what you meant by other nations hating us because of the things we do on a regular basis?

No, you've missed my point entirely.

Number one, you're fixated on this hate thing, which is not what I said. But.

We allow these things to happen that are commonplace to us, and utterly horrifying to other peoples. Some of these may seem as trivial to you as going to the store and buying a loaf of bread is to me, but they aren't to them:

- Let a dog in the house, and especially where food is prepared. This is seen as grossly unsanitary, much like we would view letting wild guinea chickens to run around the house.

- Eat pork, beef and shellfish. Muslims are not the only ones that find our dietary practices hideous. Hindus can't fathom that we think it's cool to eat beef. I'm sure most Americans would be aghast at eating live bugs or horse meat. But other cultures do it.

- Let a woman show her face in public As fli has pointed out, even in free America, many women choose this. It is not, as many wrongly assume, a form of dominance. Women feel more comfortable when they don't feel like objects to be ogled. Let's face it: we treat women like cattle in America, except as part of a zoo exhibit. Other cultures find it exceedingly odd that we are so prissy about sexuality and nudity, but we gawk at half clothed females like it's our job.

- Marrying for attraction. This is a new concept in the history of marriage. It was typically used as a way to gain alliances and to quiet rivalries, and in general, keep the peace. It also served to keep the family line going. We seem to be insisting that everyone switch to this new way of marrying (for love) when it could be a most disastrous thing in a nation of tribal families. Arranged marriages are not the cruelty people think they are. It's a business transaction, and one a lot of women are very aware of, and understand. Whether they agree with it or not is really up to the individual. Honestly, you make it seem like all the women in Muslim society are utterly hopeless. Go look up some literacy rates, and tell me how, with those numbers, they're forcing all the women to remain illiterate.

- We have a social caste system set up by wealth and breeding. We pretend we don't, but we do. In many Muslim countries, there are higher borns and lower borns. Then we look at each other with accusing eyes, as if to say "you are a bully and unfair about how you treat people." For doing the same thing.

See? Differences. Not hate, certainly, but enough to not want to be a part of that culture.

My main point, which you are intent on missing is this: Using force to change a completely different society's way of dealing with day to day events in order to not offend the senses is a direction no nation should go in.

By the same token, trying to change things the nice way will generally meet with a chilly smile and a polite decline. Over time, things may change. Especially with more and more Muslims being introduced to the Western world. The vast majority of the immigrants I meet are very happy to be here (to give you an idea of what my city is like as far as immigration goes: we have more Somalians in my county per capita than Somalia does. Any time a huge influx of immigrants arrive, we get a batch of them. So I'm not blowing smoke up your ass about meeting lots and lots of Muslims,) and they take pieces of our culture home to share. As time goes by, the evidence of western influence has become more apparent and visible. When the Taliban fell (now that's a great example of nut bars in power, the Talibs,) everyone rushed to get a tv set. That would be our influence! :D We certainly didn't change how we operate overnight. Making societies and cultures "hurry up" just to accomodate your timeframe of where everyone should be on the "civilised" map hardly ever works out very well, for anyone involved. To use a tired, yet apt phrase: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

At 3/21/06 01:44 AM, Maus wrote: Other cultures find it exceedingly odd that we are so prissy about sexuality and nudity, but we gawk at half clothed females like it's our job.

I'd like to point out that it's not just "other" cultures that find that fact retarded.

At 3/21/06 01:44 AM, Maus wrote: Let's face it: we treat women like cattle in America.
My main point, which you are intent on missing is this: Using force to change a completely different society's way of dealing with day to day events in order to not offend the senses is a direction no nation should go in.

As time goes by, the evidence of western influence has become more apparent and visible. When the Taliban fell (now that's a great example of nut bars in power, the Talibs,) everyone rushed to get a tv set. That would be our influence! :D We certainly didn't change how we operate overnight. Making societies and cultures "hurry up" just to accomodate your timeframe of where everyone should be on the "civilised" map hardly ever works out very well, for anyone involved. To use a tired, yet apt phrase: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I think we misunderstood each other. I never said that we should use force to change the way a different culture or nation carries out its day-to-day activites. I never even said we should use force to help this poor guy. I actually agree with you that American Commercialism, exported to other nations, is going to have the most profound effect! Big screen T.V.s, Coke, portable DVD players, Hell; there's already a McDonald's in India that doesn't sell beef but sells everything else! :D

My main point was that a bit of political-pressure could be brought to bear on the Judge or the prosecutor; so the poor guy doesn't end up dead! My point is not to try to hurry up and change the entire society. I just don't want to see the poor bastard get executed!

I'm fully aware of the fact that there are HUGE cultural differences, throughout the world. One example is that of an Army Veteran who was staying with a tribe in Africa. He gave them a gift of several well-made, carbon-steel, hunting knives. To his horror, he saw the women of the tribe use the knives to stoke the fires. Now, he could have tried to explain to them the concept of how knives are properly heated-treated for optimum sharpness, and why you should never place a knife into an open fire pit. Instead, he told them that tiny, good spirits lived in the edge of the blade. These spirits kept the edge sharp and made it easier to re-sharpen the edge, once it got dull. And, that fire kills off some of the spirits; making the blades harder to re-sharpen........ He knew that that explanation would be the best one to use, because he understood about cultural differences. To the tribe, heat-treating is a bizarre concept; but spirits are not!

BTW, I don't think women are treated like cattle in America. After all, when I get hungry, I can walk one block down to McDonald's and get a juicy double-Quarterpounder........ But when I'm feeling lonely, I can't get a woman nearly as easily as I can get a double-Quarterpounder! Damn, I wish I could though. :)

At 3/21/06 01:51 PM, Maus wrote:

At 3/21/06 02:42 AM, Monocrom wrote:

I never even said we should use force to help this poor guy.
*snip*
My main point was that a bit of political-pressure could be brought to bear on the Judge or the prosecutor; so the poor guy doesn't end up dead!

...what is political pressure? It's the "nice" way of trying to change someone else to satisfy our own sensibilities, a nice snippet you managed to clip out of my response.

By the same token, trying to change things the nice way will generally meet with a chilly smile and a polite decline.

Too much of that, and the other party will begin to question your motives, and become resentful of you.

Over time, things may change.

Using force and political bullying will not achieve that with desired results.

At 3/21/06 02:42 AM, Monocrom wrote: BTW, I don't think women are treated like cattle in America.

Making jokes about it does not make it go away.

Religion and law are a bad mix, like lamb goulash and Angels delight.

Maus, are you seriously putting freedom of choice over personal security? both rights are a part of my ethics but I do believe we have the right to stop this.

Just because we should not force our beliefs over people doesn't mean we can't defend those who can't defend themselves. That person has the right to live safely just like the next guy in this world, it might be my democratic education or my democratic belief but I just can't conceive the fact you're saying we should let him die there.

I can name a few cases where western interference could have saved the lives of many. Just because our values are different from their values does not mean we should have to put up with gas chambers in north Korea or with execution of people because of a harmless belief.

I don't suggest breaking in there, but there are more than enough economical and diplomatic actions we can take to make sure that man does not get murdured over his personal belief.

At 3/21/06 02:56 PM, Inglor wrote: Maus, are you seriously putting freedom of choice over personal security? both rights are a part of my ethics but I do believe we have the right to stop this.

Yes, I do value freedom over personal security. Which is funny, because most of you think I'm arguing otherwise.

Do they have the right to march into our countries and stop the things we do that they see as so wrong?

Think about this objectively. Not in accordance with your personal moral convictions.

Just because we should not force our beliefs over people doesn't mean we can't defend those who can't defend themselves. That person has the right to live safely just like the next guy in this world, it might be my democratic education or my democratic belief but I just can't conceive the fact you're saying we should let him die there.

...have I said "let him die." ?

Grant him political asylum in your country, offer to take him off their hands. Hire a lawyer from that country to defend him in court. Work it their way, not yours.

I can name a few cases where western interference could have saved the lives of many. Just because our values are different from their values does not mean we should have to put up with gas chambers in north Korea or with execution of people because of a harmless belief.

We can't even influence our own people to treat each other with these same standards, so why would we ever have the gall to think we can enforce them on others? Again, a harmless belief to you and me is an unthinkable crime to others.

I don't suggest breaking in there, but there are more than enough economical and diplomatic actions we can take to make sure that man does not get murdured over his personal belief.

...that is still using force.

At 3/21/06 03:27 PM, Maus wrote: Yes, I do value freedom over personal security. Which is funny, because most of you think I'm arguing otherwise.

...have I said "let him die." ?

One implies another, if we're not allowed to enforce our morals over other nations then anything but letting him die according to their law and culture is wrong.

Grant him political asylum in your country, offer to take him off their hands. Hire a lawyer from that country to defend him in court. Work it their way, not yours.

Political asylum in a country is undermining Afghan authority just as much as embargoing them economically or politically does, it's still saying they do not have the right to judge that person according to the law. Countries don't like their prisoners held in other places anyway.

We can't even influence our own people to treat each other with these same standards, so why would we ever have the gall to think we can enforce them on others? Again, a harmless belief to you and me is an unthinkable crime to others.

Of course we can influence our own people to treat eachother, just because there are rapists it doesn't imply that our sociaty, as a whole accepts rape as a logical act. In this case though his own family turned him in. This isn't just about Pluralism, I believe they have the right to exile him and I'm sure a country interested in him could be found but it's the fact that instead they are going to murder him for it.

I believe that freedom can only go to such an extent. Going on your claim, the Nazis should have been allowed to exterminate all Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Crippled, and other people they disliked because by their standards it was morally OK to do so?

using diplomatical power

...that is still using force.

Yes, but noone gets killed. We're not the international police, but not doing anything to save this guy's life seems a lot worse to me than to cause a pretty small diplomatic none-voilant crisis.

At 3/21/06 03:27 PM, Maus wrote:

At 3/21/06 02:56 PM, Inglor wrote:

I don't suggest breaking in there, but there are more than enough economical and diplomatic actions we can take to make sure that man does not get murdured over his personal belief.

...that is still using force.

I don't see how that would be considered using force. No one gets physically hurt, or dies. My main point is that that poor guy will, realistically speaking, be killed because of an insane law that says, "If you don't agree with everyone else, we're going to kill you!".......... Huh?! .......... "And, it's going to be perfectly legal to do so!" ......... What?!.......

You want me to look at this objectively, Maus. Okay, I did! Came up with the same answer; it's just plain wrong to kill someone JUST because they disagree with you! One of my other points was that there are STILL some things in this world that go beyond cultural differences. Some things are still just Right & Wrong.

A society that has convinced itself that executing someone because he disagrees with the majority, I'm sorry; but I'm going to call it like it is. That specific part of their society is an example of mass-insanity. And I'm not going to pretend it's not! I'm not going to pretend that I respect THAT insane aspect of their society!

Sorry Maus, but this isn't about little, day-to-day things that all Americans do that would upset people in other parts of the world. I had eggs for breakfast; I'm fully aware of the reaction I'd get if I fried one up at an African village and ate it......... The native tribesmen would all vomit! And yes, most Westerners would vomit at a lot of the things that the natives consider delicious.......... But this isn't about that! It's about a guy who will likely be executed not for murdering others, not for commiting acts of violent terrorism in his country, not for raping children, not for plotting to overthrow his Government; but for disagreeing with the opinions of the majority. That was his "crime." Morally or objectively, it's just insane to execute someone for THAT reason.........

......... Here's an idea, kick him out of the country. Exile him. That's what the Communists did to me and my folks. All because my dad disagreed with the Government. Honestly, there's a small, part of me that hates Communists the way Black people hate the Klan......... But even I have to admit, they never did anything like THIS!

BTW, not all guys look at women as meat, or sex-objects. There are some of us who think with the big head. Sorry if you found my humor to be a bit offensive. But I treat people based on how they treat me, not based on which set of genitals they were born with.

At 3/21/06 12:15 AM, Monocrom wrote:

At 3/20/06 11:17 PM, Maus wrote:

Honestly, I can't think of anything I do on a regular basis that would cause other cultures to hate me. With the obvious exception of not being a Muslim....... But like I said before, that's not a good reason to hate someone.

I agree with you about the poor job of convicing people that things are better here. And America is far from perfect but, unlike Moscow, you really don't have to be afraid of that late-night knock on the door. You don't have to worry about which one of your neighbors is a KGB informant. You don't have to keep your mouth shut if one of your friends disappears in the middle of the night. You don't have to wait in line for 6 hours to buy bread. You don't have to use a newspaper as toilet paper because the store ran out.......... And, you can be open & honest about your Faith; without worrying that your Government might kill you because of your honesty.

America isn't perfect, we do need to fix our own problems, and do a better job of leading by example........ But American still has more freedom than a lot of other places in the world......... You know, I just thought of something. One of the reasons why other cultures hate us is because of all the freedom found in America. One of the reasons why Muslim nations hate us is because women are not treated like cattle, not forced to marry a man they don't love, not forced to cook & clean as slaves for their husbands........

Is that what you meant by other nations hating us because of the things we do on a regular basis?........ Here's a thought that brought a smile to my face........ Everytime YOU open up a book, someone gets pissed off because they believe women should reman illiterate.

You fucking idoit, Muslims dont think women should be treated like cattle, or forced to marry a man, or cook and clean as slaves. Actually in the Holy Qur'an it says you should treat women with the most respect, and love your mother 3x more then your father, hows that for respect? Islam dosent tell women to become illiterate. Islam urges ALL muslims to become literate.

Fuck you.

At 3/21/06 06:14 PM, CatiousOutlaw wrote:

:Muslims dont think women should be treated like cattle, or forced to marry a man, or cook and clean as slaves. Actually in the Holy Qur'an it says you should treat women with the most respect, and love your mother 3x more then your father, hows that for respect? Islam dosent tell women to become illiterate. Islam urges ALL muslims to become literate.

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It is true that the Qur'aan-al-Karim advocates the respect for women as well as the
educations of muslims. However, it is as with many religions, the followers do not
always practise their religions. Sometimes, people interpret and/or re-interpret the
teachings of their faith to fit their own desires.

Also, please try not to give into cussings of anger when, not everyone actually have
studied the Qur'aan; after all, not all muslims read the Qur'aan daily as they are
supposed to. Share what you know, correct the wrong images, and may Allah (GOD)
smile upon your soul.

Salaam (Peace)
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At 3/19/06 10:58 PM, Maus wrote:

It isn't our business to make other countries govern themselves differently than they want to be.

Maus, in 1940's Germany, Hitler commited mass genocide among citizens of his own country. We left them alone for that untill he attacked other countries.

In Serbi-Bosnia, Milosevich commited Crimes against humanity towards Croatians that were part of his country, should we leave it at that.

In Sudan and other parts of Africa, Massive Genocide went on. Should we leave it at that.

This is what we have the UN for. They should try to exert some power and do something.

At 3/21/06 06:14 PM, CatiousOutlaw wrote:

You fucking idoit, Muslims dont think women should be treated like cattle, or forced to marry a man, or cook and clean as slaves. Actually in the Holy Qur'an it says you should treat women with the most respect, and love your mother 3x more then your father, hows that for respect? Islam dosent tell women to become illiterate. Islam urges ALL muslims to become literate.

Fuck you.

LOL .......... n00bs are so cute! You're the 2nd one who has gotten upset with me, on this thread. Maus might disagree with the things I say, but at least she can carry on an intelligent discussion........

For the record, I was born on the border between Eastern Europe and the Middle East. Despite not being Muslim, I know a great deal about how Islam is SUPPOSED to work. It's supposed to be a very peaceful religion. Part of being a Muslim is to respect the laws of the country that you live in. Immediately after 9/11, Muslims living in NYC went to Washington Square Park........ and began dancing & singing happily that the terrorist attacks were carried out! Does that sound respectful to you? Does that sound like something a TRUE Muslim would do?.......... As for being respectful towards women, once again, huge difference between what the Muslim Holy Book says vs. the reality. Two words for you: "Female Circumscion." (Whether the woman wants it, or not)! The thought behind it? Got to make sure that young women don't disgrace their family, by having sex before they marry. Who cares that they'll NEVER know the joys of love-making during their lifetimes.......... Does that sound respectful to you?!

Thanks for telling me how Islam is SUPPOSED to work. I already know that. I deal in Reality........ come back any time you want another lesson in how it works.

At 3/21/06 07:14 PM, Monocrom wrote:

At 3/21/06 06:14 PM, CatiousOutlaw wrote:

You fucking idoit, Muslims dont think women should be treated like cattle, or forced to marry a man, or cook and clean as slaves. Actually in the Holy Qur'an it says you should treat women with the most respect, and love your mother 3x more then your father, hows that for respect? Islam dosent tell women to become illiterate. Islam urges ALL muslims to become literate.

Fuck you.

LOL .......... n00bs are so cute! You're the 2nd one who has gotten upset with me, on this thread. Maus might disagree with the things I say, but at least she can carry on an intelligent discussion........

For the record, I was born on the border between Eastern Europe and the Middle East. Despite not being Muslim, I know a great deal about how Islam is SUPPOSED to work. It's supposed to be a very peaceful religion. Part of being a Muslim is to respect the laws of the country that you live in. Immediately after 9/11, Muslims living in NYC went to Washington Square Park........ and began dancing & singing happily that the terrorist attacks were carried out! Does that sound respectful to you? Does that sound like something a TRUE Muslim would do?.......... As for being respectful towards women, once again, huge difference between what the Muslim Holy Book says vs. the reality. Two words for you: "Female Circumscion." (Whether the woman wants it, or not)! The thought behind it? Got to make sure that young women don't disgrace their family, by having sex before they marry. Who cares that they'll NEVER know the joys of love-making during their lifetimes.......... Does that sound respectful to you?!

Thanks for telling me how Islam is SUPPOSED to work. I already know that. I deal in Reality........ come back any time you want another lesson in how it works.

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Monocrom,

CatiousOutlaw might have addressed his views in a way that is offensive but, his
anger is not totally blind even shall it be unjustified. It is true that, there are many
muslims who failed as being muslims by not practising their religion according to
the Qur'aan; however, there are still those muslims who do practise Islam as it is
supposed to be.

Islam and the muslims have been mocked and attacked even more after the 9-11
event, and thus, one can understand why some of the muslims can become quick
to anger. CatiousOutlaw has his own reasons for his anger but, let us not mock him
for it. He tried to correct a misunderstanding in his own way.

Deus Voluntas Miserere
==========================================
============================

At 3/21/06 07:26 PM, Pyroskiros wrote

Monocrom,

CatiousOutlaw might have addressed his views in a way that is offensive but, his
anger is not totally blind even shall it be unjustified. It is true that, there are many
muslims who failed as being muslims by not practising their religion according to
the Qur'aan; however, there are still those muslims who do practise Islam as it is
supposed to be.

Islam and the muslims have been mocked and attacked even more after the 9-11
event, and thus, one can understand why some of the muslims can become quick
to anger. CatiousOutlaw has his own reasons for his anger but, let us not mock him
for it. He tried to correct a misunderstanding in his own way.

Deus Voluntas Miserere
==========================================
============================

I never said that there were no peaceful Muslims. But he automatically got upset with me because I pointed out that it's not just Muslim terrorists who have forgotten the teachings of their Holy Book....... You must keep in mind that there are still many people who are very upset because most of the terrorist attacks over the last few years; it's been Muslim terror-cells who claim responsibility. Sorry, but a huge amount of the hatred that others feel towards Muslims is largely due to Muslim extremists, committing terrorism! ..........

Part of me can understand his anger. He's saying, "Treat us with respect!"

Someone who isn't a Muslim might respond, "You'll get respect when your people stop bombing $#^t!"

There's a lot of anger on both sides....... And both sides feel justified! Ironically, they're both right!

Here's something to think about. A lot of the people who died in the towers on 9/11, were Muslim. Many were recent immigrants, working as Porters, bus-boys, office-workers, etc. They got murdered as well! Anyone who has lived in NYC for years; either was injured during the attacks, lost a loved-one, or knows someone personally who has........ including Muslim NewYorkers!

As for the way I responded to CatiousOutlaw, I treated him with more respect than he showed me. He did a horribly poor job of sharing his views. I can honestly discuss any subject, with anyone. But not if it turns into about personal insults. I will have to disagree with the last sentence of your post. CatiousOutlaw was ranting, not trying to clear up any type of misunderstanding.

At 3/21/06 07:08 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote: Maus, in 1940's Germany, Hitler commited mass genocide among citizens of his own country. We left them alone for that untill he attacked other countries.

We left him alone until a country he was allied with attacked a military base on our shores. Hardly a humanitarian crusade. More of a "all your friends are our enemies."

In Serbi-Bosnia, Milosevich commited Crimes against humanity towards Croatians that were part of his country, should we leave it at that.

But did we? That was one of our quiet military campaigns that has left a country in ruins.

In Sudan and other parts of Africa, Massive Genocide went on. Should we leave it at that.

These are tribal wars that you, I, and the vast majority of westerners have no concept of. They span hundreds of years, and most likely would not have exploded into what they are today without western meddling and the "speeding up" of their society.

Read "Things Fall Apart" by Chinua Achebe if you haven't already. It was required reading when I was in school.

This is what we have the UN for. They should try to exert some power and do something.

The U.N. is not a single country, now is it? At the same time, the U.N. does not represent all peoples, and the political jockeying within the group hampers their effectiveness in doing anything proactive.

Instead of sanctions and embargoes which ultimately counteract the desired effect (look at Korea,) pleading to another cultures sensibilities is a better solution. Using threats only hardens the resolve to keep doing the things they want to be free to do.

There needs to be a lot less of the "our way is the best for everyone, everywhere" attitude that we seem to have.

At 3/21/06 09:50 PM, Maus wrote:

At 3/21/06 07:08 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

There needs to be a lot less of the "our way is the best for everyone, everywhere" attitude that we seem to have.

John Locke argued that all humans have basic Rights. As a World Superpower, shouldn't we try to help/enforce this.

And with an Organizatin such as the UN shouldn't they try to help Enforce it.

Hell, they have China in thier Organization that is know for it's restrictions on almost all Human rights.

At 3/21/06 09:58 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote: John Locke argued that all humans have basic Rights. As a World Superpower, shouldn't we try to help/enforce this.

There needs to be a lot less of the "our way is the best for everyone, everywhere" attitude that we seem to have.

At 3/19/06 10:58 PM, Maus wrote: You are confusing "being Muslim" with "living in a country ruled by Sharia Law." It isn't our business to make other countries govern themselves differently than they want to be.

Agreed. Besides, those countries take things way too strict. In our religion, once you convert to another religiong outside Islam, there is not return, unless you repent (I've seen Muslims who became Satanists and went back to Islam). I remember a Bahraini man was once kicked out of his country for converting to Coptic Christianity. That's all that happened, he was declined a Bahraini nationality and was kicked out.

At 3/22/06 09:39 AM, arab_freak wrote: In our religion, once you convert to another religiong outside Islam, there is not return, unless you repent (I've seen Muslims who became Satanists and went back to Islam). I remember a Bahraini man was once kicked out of his country for converting to Coptic Christianity. That's all that happened, he was declined a Bahraini nationality and was kicked out.

Now there's an idea that makes sense! If you don't want people who are not part of your religion, in your Society; kick them out! Problem solved! No need to go insane and execute someone who disagrees with you.

As a Muslim I have to disagree with the people wanting this man dead.I say let him make his decisions.

In Islam humans are supposed to make their own choices in life.Allah(God) gave people free will and its theirs to do what they want with it.

Nobody should force anybody to join or leave a religion.and i think the Quran emphasises free will.

Maus, what about the Pitcairn islanders who were found guilty of sexually abusing young girls, who also used the defence that it was their culture and tradition? Should they be free?

At 3/21/06 09:50 PM, Maus wrote: We left him alone until a country he was allied with attacked a military base on our shores. Hardly a humanitarian crusade. More of a "all your friends are our enemies."

actually we left him alone untill he declared war on us. the US only declared war on japan after pearl harbour.