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Despite what communism is portraited(sp??) as, it is actually more democratic than democracy. Democracy is the voice of the people, right? Well in communism people SHOULD be allowed to vote on everyting( The problem is though, that when the USSR was made they were still in the war, then they had to fight the whites and the allies, so they had to have wartime communism but before that could end Stalin took over so we were screwed)

At 5/6/01 09:09 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: Well in communism people SHOULD be allowed to vote on everyting

While I consider myself a socialist I do not think that people should be allowed to vote on everything. Like these propositions in california and such. It undermines the government structure. The idea is to elect someone who can represent your interests better than you could yourself. And since half of americans don't even vote and most of the half that do are gravely under-informed (I don't consider myself informed enough to make decisions on foreign policy and such). Representative government is the best form as far as I'm concerned. And as somebody once said, "the worst thing a representative can do is to do exactly what the people want." The people don't know what is best for them since they don't know everyting and they can't know everything due to national security issues. Besides, socialism is an economic system, not a governmental one.

At 5/6/01 09:09 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: Despite what communism is portraited(sp??) as, it is actually more democratic than democracy. Democracy is the voice of the people, right? Well in communism people SHOULD be allowed to vote on everyting( The problem is though, that when the USSR was made they were still in the war, then they had to fight the whites and the allies, so they had to have wartime communism but before that could end Stalin took over so we were screwed)

capitalism is perfect democractic economic system. let's you work as hard as you want to, for the wages you want.

At 5/6/01 09:09 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: Despite what communism is portraited(sp??) as, it is actually more democratic than democracy. Democracy is the voice of the people, right? Well in communism people SHOULD be allowed to vote on everyting

...which leads to mob rule.

The will of the mob can be just as tyranical as the will of a monarch. Both can lead to individual rights being thrown in the trash.

And since half of americans don't even vote and most of the half that do are gravely under-informed (I don't consider myself informed enough to make decisions on foreign policy and such).

Theteckman: Have you read any communist stuff? Anyway the way to a communist revolution would be to have a politically aware proletariat, in other words if the proletariat aren't politcally informed then there is no communism

NOFX: let me put this in a way you can understand "YOU ARE A IDIOT"

Mos: Your defintion of mob rule is increadably stupid. The "mob" will not throw away indivual rights because they themselves are indivuals, where as monarchs can grant themselves certain rights a "mob" cannot distance themselves from what they are.

I myself am a capitalist. Then again, I've never really read Karl Marx. From what I understand of him, the base of Communism is Anarchy.

I myself am a capitalist. Then again, I've never really read Karl Marx. From what I understand of him, the base of Communism is Anarchy. Just out of curiousity, is this true?

Yes I did double post... what of it?

capitalism is perfect democractic economic system. let's you work as hard as you want to, for the wages you want.

Ah you seem to have forgotten the fact that not everybody has the ability to rise to the top because of inheritance and racism, sexism, sexual-orientationism (anybody got a shorter one for that?), and whateverelse"ism". Back to the inheritance point, it takes money to make money. First comes education and since the public school system is WAY WAY WAY (I've gone to both) behind the private school system the rich are already getting an advantage there. This is just one example but take the stock market. They have so much money and insurance that they can afford to take risks and make high money investments whereas a poor person might not even be able to get to the stock market (internet trading is starting to remedy this). And then there's the fact that most of the money is made way before the IPO. For instance, dick cheney made $50,000 (as much as my whole family) because of access to information about stockes, according to the New York Times.

Argh how do you edit messages? Aaanyway, Gameboy CC:
communism does not mean anrachy rule, infact far from it. The basic idea is that unions have lots of power and taxes are high enough for the rich that all basic needs (health care, education etc.) are taken care of. And not just bare minimum, GOOD healthcare and GOOD education. There's A LOT more to it than that but I don't feel like writing about it.

At 5/6/01 05:21 PM, NOFX wrote:

At 5/6/01 09:09 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: Despite what communism is portraited(sp??) as, it is actually more democratic than democracy. Democracy is the voice of the people, right? Well in communism people SHOULD be allowed to vote on everyting( The problem is though, that when the USSR was made they were still in the war, then they had to fight the whites and the allies, so they had to have wartime communism but before that could end Stalin took over so we were screwed)

capitalism is perfect democractic economic system. let's you work as hard as you want to, for the wages you want.

Er... no. Capiitalisim works the many for the profit of the few.

At 5/6/01 05:21 PM, NOFX wrote:

At 5/6/01 09:09 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: Despite what communism is portraited(sp??) as, it is actually more democratic than democracy. Democracy is the voice of the people, right? Well in communism people SHOULD be allowed to vote on everyting( The problem is though, that when the USSR was made they were still in the war, then they had to fight the whites and the allies, so they had to have wartime communism but before that could end Stalin took over so we were screwed)

capitalism is perfect democractic economic system. let's you work as hard as you want to, for the wages you want.

Yes & No, the hardest workers are often low paid & don't get any respect, Desk jockeys, Puplic Servants, Or people born into ownership of daddies company are usually the ones with money, Often the richest people aren't actually being sufficiently useful(bassically not working hard enough) to justify the money they have.

Communism is a nice thought but nobody will make it work, Capitalism on the other hand is an ugly ugly thing from any angle.

Capitalism, in its idealised form is about everyone being free of economic restrictions. People get paid for what they do.

Likewise, whilst it is often crazy that some people make so much money, they're usually very clever. They make that money through their own ingenuity.

Also, I don't buy into the whole concept of people being restricted by one or many factors. History has plenty of examples of people who rose from dirt poverty to incredible wealth through their own ingenuity and hard work. Rockefeller is a prime example of that.

People who knock capitalism are usually stupid, lazy, or both.

shorbe

People who knock capitalism are usually stupid, lazy, or both.

I'm not stupid. I'm not lazy. But I hate capitalism. Why? because it doesn't work as a meritocracy. I can tell you that people definitely not always paid based on what they do - they generally are paid based on who they know and who they're related to. It's more of a nespotic than a merit-based system.

Does this mean that I chafe under capitalist rule, refuse to work or pay taxes? no. But i do realize that while capitalism may not be the best economic system out there, it is one of the better systems as far as protecting the few remaining personal liberties.

Also, I don't buy into the whole concept of people being restricted by one or many factors. History has plenty of examples of people who rose from dirt poverty to incredible wealth through their own ingenuity and hard work. Rockefeller is a prime example of that.

People who knock capitalism are usually stupid, lazy, or both.

People who knock people who knock capitalism are stupid and ignorant, usually both.

History may have plently of examples of rags to riches but it also has plently of examples of riches to rags Marx for example, despite being extremely intelligent and ingenuative(sp?).

Obviously Marx wasn't too clever, or he would have succeeded.

As for nepotism, that's when you bramch out and do it for yourself. If an organisation runs on nepotism, and not getting the best person for the job, then they're ripe for the picking.

shorbe

There is an in-between & I think that is where the ideal situation is, Communism clearly isn't going to work effectively unless you replace all people in Government with some kind of machine, On the other hand Capitalism in America has been taken to it's rediculous extreme, Americans(not all) also seem to have a fanatical irrational hatred of communism, to the point that adequate welfare & puplic health is rejected by many as being commie or red or pinko.

Cuba were more or less forced into communism by America, Fidel(sp?) Castro is not the monster America make him out to be, he is in some ways a hero, During the 1930s American corperations were basically raping Cuba for all it was worth & Castro was forced to fight against it, Cuba has the Second best Public Health care in the world & an education system that is actually better than that of the USA(mind you there are 27 education systems better than the USA's).

More to come.

At 5/9/01 06:51 AM, Pantomime_Horse wrote: There is an in-between & I think that is where the ideal situation is, Communism clearly isn't going to work effectively unless you replace all people in Government with some kind of machine, On the other hand Capitalism in America has been taken to it's rediculous extreme, Americans(not all) also seem to have a fanatical irrational hatred of communism, to the point that adequate welfare & puplic health is rejected by many as being commie or red or pinko.

Cuba were more or less forced into communism by America, Fidel(sp?) Castro is not the monster America make him out to be, he is in some ways a hero, During the 1930s American corperations were basically raping Cuba for all it was worth & Castro was forced to fight against it, Cuba has the Second best Public Health care in the world & an education system that is actually better than that of the USA(mind you there are 27 education systems better than the USA's).

More to come.

i have to admit, communism looks good on paper. but as we all know, history repeats itself. communism just won't work. there was an idea of... Rousseau i think it was, or one of those old enlightenment thinkers... that he would hand pick a bunch of honest, hardworking citizens, and form his own republic with them. kinda like a little utopia. i think that's the only situation that communism can work. in a small group of people where everyone knows everyone else. therefore in the real world, it won't work... unless we want to break up our nations and degenerate into our old nomadic ways.

i have to admit, communism looks good on paper. but as we all know, history repeats itself. communism just won't work. there was an idea of... Rousseau i think it was, or one of those old enlightenment thinkers... that he would hand pick a bunch of honest, hardworking citizens, and form his own republic with them. kinda like a little utopia. i think that's the only situation that communism can work. in a small group of people where everyone knows everyone else. therefore in the real world, it won't work... unless we want to break up our nations and degenerate into our old nomadic ways.

Shorbe: Yes Amrx wasn't very clever he was only one of the most influencal figures in the 20th century, despite the fact he was dead.

NOFX and everyone else who questions communism. Do you actually know why communism became so discreditied?

At 5/7/01 07:32 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: NOFX: let me put this in a way you can understand "YOU ARE A IDIOT"

this coming from a man that says communism is more democratic than democracy?

dude, communism was made up my marx and engels. let's look into their history a bit. engels was a very rich man... in fact he leeched off his dad his whole life. engels dad made lots of money off mercantilism and had a great factory. so engels' fat ass got to just sit around and think up stupid ideas all day (communism). engels is obviously the biggest idealist i've ever seen, since his stupid system will never work. see, he never had to work for anything... yet he makes a whole economic system in which everyone has to do their work or else everything fails. He has no experience in the field whatso ever. same with marx. they both leeched off of some hardworking man, who through a capitalist society had risen the ranks due to hard work. but they never realised that... they were too busy getting money from their father's account at the bank.

it's all about hardwork.

moral of the story: hard work pays off. and don't pamper your kids or else they will turn to shit.

At 5/9/01 11:40 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote:

i have to admit, communism looks good on paper. but as we all know, history repeats itself. communism just won't work. there was an idea of... Rousseau i think it was, or one of those old enlightenment thinkers... that he would hand pick a bunch of honest, hardworking citizens, and form his own republic with them. kinda like a little utopia. i think that's the only situation that communism can work. in a small group of people where everyone knows everyone else. therefore in the real world, it won't work... unless we want to break up our nations and degenerate into our old nomadic ways.

Shorbe: Yes Amrx wasn't very clever he was only one of the most influencal figures in the 20th century, despite the fact he was dead.

NOFX and everyone else who questions communism. Do you actually know why communism became so discreditied?

there has never been an actual communist society that i know of. the soviet government wasn't. that's the point. they all tried and failed... what makes you think it can succeed now?

Bugger: Most influential guy for losers and failures. Great claim to fame.

shorbe

this coming from a man that says communism is more democratic than democracy?

well actually what people claim is democracy at the moment

dude, communism was made up my marx and engels. let's look into their history a bit. engels was a very rich man... in fact he leeched off his dad his whole life. engels dad made lots of money off mercantilism and had a great factory. so engels' fat ass got to just sit around and think up stupid ideas all day (communism). engels is obviously the biggest idealist i've ever seen, since his stupid system will never work. see, he never had to work for anything... yet he makes a whole economic system in which everyone has to do their work or else everything fails. He has no experience in the field whatso ever. same with marx. they both leeched off of some hardworking man, who through a capitalist society had risen the ranks due to hard work. but they never realised that... they were too busy getting money from their father's account at the bank.

Actually Engels worked at a factory in Manchester and Marx worked for a newspaper, buit since it was a communist one he was still poor

it's all about hardwork.

moral of the story: hard work pays off. and don't pamper your kids or else they will turn to shit.

Moral of the story, you are truely an idiot

There was a communist society in Russia, but Stalin took it over.

shorbe: You truly are a media whore if you belive only losers and failures belive in him. And since I haven't even started a carrer yet that proves your point wrong

At 5/10/01 12:18 PM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: Actually Engels worked at a factory in Manchester and Marx worked for a newspaper, buit since it was a communist one he was still poor

oh shut up. he was hanging off the coattails of his father. they didn't need those jobs. they didn't have to work hard. they were born with silver spoons up their asses... they didn't have to work. they dont' know what it's like... charlatans... just like yourself.

Moral of the story, you are truely an idiot

communism is more democratic than democracy eh? haha.

There was a communist society in Russia, but Stalin took it over.

showing how damn weak and unstable communist societies really are... if one man was able to curb a whole society, then...

oh shut up. he was hanging off the coattails of his father. they didn't need those jobs. they didn't have to work hard. they were born with silver spoons up their asses... they didn't have to work. they dont' know what it's like... charlatans... just like yourself.

Actually Marx was increadably poor, he couldn't afford medacine and he lost a couple of children

communism is more democratic than democracy eh? haha.

Its more democratic than what people call democracy today

showing how damn weak and unstable communist societies really are... if one man was able to curb a whole society, then...

1) There was conditions leading up to it
2) Its happened in capitilism
3) it was the first go at it

At 5/11/01 12:04 PM, Bugger_all_99 wrote:

oh shut up. he was hanging off the coattails of his father. they didn't need those jobs. they didn't have to work hard. they were born with silver spoons up their asses... they didn't have to work. they dont' know what it's like... charlatans... just like yourself.

Actually Marx was increadably poor, he couldn't afford medacine and he lost a couple of children

communism is more democratic than democracy eh? haha.

Its more democratic than what people call democracy today

showing how damn weak and unstable communist societies really are... if one man was able to curb a whole society, then...

1) There was conditions leading up to it
2) Its happened in capitilism
3) it was the first go at it

I don't like democracy, the masses are too stupid to be put into control, especially since they tend to be short-sighted and self-righteous.

I don't like democracy, the masses are too stupid to be put into control, especially since they tend to be short-sighted and self-righteous.

Is that in you don't like democracy as in the stuff we have now, or as in you don't like the idea of democracy?

Bugger: I don't pay attention to the media. Besides which, come the revolution, they'll be up against the wall after the politicians and lawyers.

I'm willing to give crap to any political ideology, including democracy, which I think is a complete joke and hypocrisy at the moment.

shorbe

At 5/6/01 09:09 AM, Bugger_all_99 wrote: Despite what communism is portraited(sp??) as, it is actually more democratic than democracy. Democracy is the voice of the people, right? Well in communism people SHOULD be allowed to vote on everyting( The problem is though, that when the USSR was made they were still in the war, then they had to fight the whites and the allies, so they had to have wartime communism but before that could end Stalin took over so we were screwed)

Democracy is flat-out stupid, because the people don't study, know, or give a flying fuck about government. They let the media decide.

Let me take note that the US is not a democracy but a democratic republic. I think it was best at about when Washington left office. He said 1)Not to form parties and 2) Not to mingle in European affairs.

Well, we all know what happened within a year.

Bugger: I don't pay attention to the media. Besides which, come the revolution, they'll be up against the wall after the politicians and lawyers.

Then why do you present arguements which are from the media?

:Democracy is flat-out stupid, because the people don't study, know, or give a flying fuck about government. They let the media decide.

I've said this once and I'll say it again, I political aware proletariat is needed for a communist revolution