Rightist economic ideas

[Slizor]

The idea of ownership.
Over the years people have tried to blur the semantic line between the words "possess" and "own". To possess something is to have something, but does not by definition mean you own it. For example if I pick up a box in a store, I am in possession of it, but I do not own it.

When you own something you have the rights over it. It is yours, why should you not be allowed to use or abuse it?

Now this is the point where the arguements start, ownership can not be derived from possession. Yes that's right, possessing something, even if it is for many years, does not mean you own something. This is recognised by the law, if you steal a gold bar 50 years ago, the bar does not become yours, it is still stolen. This (not in the law) applies with things taken where there is no owner. Just because no-one else has a right over it, it doesn't mean you do.

This effects the idea of land. Land has not always been "owned", it was taken a long time ago, after the dinosaurs roamed the earth. People have merely being possessing land, not owning it. But, our world and systems is based on the idea that people do actually own land, making this myth that surrounds ownership.

So, what of the "ownership sovereignty", the idea that if you own something, then what it produces is yours too. Well, as people can not own land(only possess it) they obviously can't own the produce of the land, but only possess it, they have no rights over it. Apart from one, that is the natural right to what is needed to survive. For example, a lioness attacks and kills a wilderbeast, then eats it, she had no ownership of the animal, she ate it because she needs to, as does every animal. We as humans also need to eat, and we have a right to. So, while the person who possess the land has the right to take what he needs, he has no right to deny people of their natural right.

[TheloniousMONK]

So in other words, according to you, there is no such thing as ownership? No one owns anything? Everything is produced on land, even you, and you said just because something is produced on land doesn't mean people own it, because they don't own the land.

I followed you up until you said that. The land stuff makes sense, but if grow your crop with your blood, your sweat, and your tears, I'm sorry but it's YOURS until conquested or given away.

[Slizor]

So in other words, according to you, there is no such thing as ownership? No one owns anything? Everything is produced on land, even you, and you said just because something is produced on land doesn't mean people own it, because they don't own the land.

The only thing anyone owns is theirself.

I followed you up until you said that. The land stuff makes sense, but if grow your crop with your blood, your sweat, and your tears, I'm sorry but it's YOURS until conquested or given away.

Crops grow on blood and sweat? Jesus, I thought it was nutrients sunlight and rain. Silly me!

[PsychobillyClock]

And what is the point of this topic? When you own something, you own it. When you possess something, you possess it. What are you trying to prove?
(no offence meant, but really, what are you trying to prove?)

I feel retarded for asking, but is a rightist a liberal or a conservative? I keep forgetting.

[IamjustSci]

I feel retarded for asking, but is a rightist a liberal or a conservative? I keep forgetting.

The right wing is conservative

[swayside]

while you may have some reasonable points, you're still wrong. let's say (for the sake of arguement) that i didn't own the land, but possessed it. also let's say that there is some hermit bozo that lives just outside my property line. now let's say i tilled the ground, while hermit bozo sat and watched. say i planted seeds while hermit bozo slept. i water the seeds while he runs through the woods. i harvest the crops of this labor and store them while hermit bozo sits there. why should he have just as much claim over what i have grown as i do? if i did all the work, why should have a right to any? if he just sat there while i grew food, why should i have to feed him? because he's there? because he has the "right to life"? no! the right to life is the right to live. you can do as you want with your life, including not grow food (or make money to buy food). why should someone who works have to feed someone who doesn't? they shouldn't. while (according to you) i may not "own the land, i do own my actions, do i not? i tilled the ground. i planted seeds. i watered them. i harvested them. i own all of my actions, and it was my actions, my labor, that made the food ready to eat. therefore, i own the "fruits of my labor". he has no claim over what i have done, why should he? he did nothing! i have full claim over what i have done. i did it! he has no right to what i do.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

Crops don't grow by themselves, they require an investment of time and effort. We own our bodies, this must mean that we are responsible for the consequences of our actions, constructive and destructive.

[Slizor]

also let's say that there is some hermit bozo that lives just outside my property line. now let's say i tilled the ground, while hermit bozo sat and watched. say i planted seeds while hermit bozo slept. i water the seeds while he runs through the woods. i harvest the crops of this labor and store them while hermit bozo sits there. why should he have just as much claim over what i have grown as i do?

You have more of a claim, but not to more than your fair share. The person doesn't deserve to be lavished, he could have worked, but he was a lazy bastard. I'm not saying that everyone should be given everything equally, but there is a base line. The land you took denies people of the land, and thus the fruits of it.

if i did all the work, why should have a right to any? if he just sat there while i grew food, why should i have to feed him? because he's there? because he has the "right to life"? no! the right to life is the right to live. you can do as you want with your life, including not grow food (or make money to buy food). why should someone who works have to feed someone who doesn't? they shouldn't. while (according to you) i may not "own the land, i do own my actions, do i not? i tilled the ground. i planted seeds. i watered them. i harvested them. i own all of my actions, and it was my actions, my labor, that made the food ready to eat. therefore, i own the "fruits of my labor".

No no, you own yourself, and you are responsible for your actions but you do not own what you make. Clearly, or it would mean that your parents own you.

[Irish-Boy]

Yo bee-hatch. Am at uni just done a couple of hours of revision. Have done bits and pieces of politics stuff - mainly reading your book. I reckon i'll do some shit on Thatcherism, media, pressure groups and political parties. Methinks. Have to choose 2 more as well though. Doh! Currently reading that Douglas Adams book Starship Titanic (he never wrote it though some nesxt guy did). Really good hactually, suprisingly similar style to the man Adams. Anyways it's my break now so i get to go have lunch. Later.

P.S How's exams going? You had your history one yet? My first one is on Thursday.

[Slizor]

Cool, I've started re-reading Lord Of The Rings. I had my history test on monday...first thing. I then had to wait for three hours for my next lesson...which was cancelled. And I had yesterday off(2nd year general studies exam.) So I've just got back from my first lesson this week.
Anyhow, have to catch up on me posts, later.

[Bizud]

Conservatives are indeed right-wing. However, liberals are not left-wing. Liberals are smack dab in the center, maybe even a little right of center. The Democrat party is most certainly NOT left-wing. If anything, they're center-right, while the Republican party is firmly in right-wing territory.

As for ownership, hell, I'm one of the most left-wing people you'll ever meet, I'm almost a communist, and I believe very strongly in ownership rights. Don't fuck with my stuff, asshole. Without any form of ownership rights, society would fall apart, as anyone could just waltz into your house and take whatever they wanted, unless of course you could kick their ass, in which case we're back to caveman times.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

I hope I don't come across as a jerk for saying this. But don't right and left wing refer to the United states congressional seating arrangement? I think that would definitely make the liberals left wing.

[IamjustSci]

In today's politics it seems almost as if everyone is right winged. I mean if you look at the policies of the candidates, you have Republicans who are to the ...and Democrats who are STILL to the right and conservative, but not as conservative as their opponents. Let's face it, the Democratic party has REALLY lost it's power, influence, and idealism. I'm an independent, personally, so it's really sad to see when two individuals running for the same office have the same damn opinion on every single issue, only one group feels stronger about it. Where does our freedom to choose go when every choice is pretty much the same result?

[Slizor]

I hope I don't come across as a jerk for saying this. But don't right and left wing refer to the United states congressional seating arrangement? I think that would definitely make the liberals left wing.

No, I used to know where it was from. I think it originally referred to the French civil war, or students of Hegal. Anyhow, left and right are more fixed ideas then the ideas that are in power.

[Irish-Boy]

Hope history went ok. I've got my first exam in 18 minutes. Got here a bit early and the one thing i hate is being early, so i'm just wasting some time. Rob said that in his exam no one actaully checks that you are who you say you are (like in QE where they check your student card against your table card thing), so anyone can just take the exam. So i'm gonna need you to come up here next Tuesday for my politics exam. Ok? Sorted. That's that settled. Might go do my exam now.
Later

[swayside]

At 1/15/03 06:24 AM, Bizud wrote: Conservatives are indeed right-wing. However, liberals are not left-wing. Liberals are smack dab in the center, maybe even a little right of center. The Democrat party is most certainly NOT left-wing. If anything, they're center-right, while the Republican party is firmly in right-wing territory.

for an evaluation of your obvious wisdom...
go here

[Ted-Easton]

Conservatives are left, Democrats are right, liberals are centre.
At least, that's how it is in Canada.

[swayside]

At 1/17/03 11:04 PM, Ted_Easton wrote: Conservatives are left, Democrats are right, liberals are centre.
At least, that's how it is in Canada.

and since when is canada a fount of wise political standards?

[P-Chan]

At 1/17/03 11:04 PM, Ted_Easton wrote: Conservatives are left, Democrats are right, liberals are centre.
At least, that's how it is in Canada.

Conservatives are left?!? Who are you refering to?

Democrats are right?!? Again, who are you refering to?

(I think I live in the same country as you do...)

-----------------

Alliance is right, Conservatives are center right, Liberals are a little to the right, and the NDP is left.

[Irish-Boy]

Yo. Got politics exam in 45 mins. Since you failed to show up to take it for me, i'll have to do the bloody thing. Great. Realised that politics isn't that difficult if you actually revise. Subsequently didn't revise. Hence i shall fail. Decided to do voting behaviour (the only one i've revised for), media (can bullshit that), Conservatives/Thatcherism (did that for essay plan), and Labour/New Labour (did half an hour revision this morning. All i know really is that New Labour ditched socialism and shifted to the right to appeal to middle class voters). But i calculated that i already have about 7% from my courseworks, so i only need 33% to pass the module. I reckon that is doable. My big beast textbook is really good y'know, proper in-depth. I'll bring it home for you, you could definitely use it. Oh yeah we got our flat sorted for next year. It's well nice i swear. All properly refurbished last summer, all new furniture and everything. Plus i got the nicest room (in my opinion). Woohoo! In a prime location too, close to uni and town, and all the main student areas. Alright! (Snake style) Wallet inspector.

Later

[Slizor]

I hope your politics exam goes well, or did. The topics seem pretty easy. I completed THPS4 a few days ago, because I'm just that good. Bah, I'm really tired today, but I really have to go to the gym because I've really gotta keep mum going. I'll just have to sacrafise(how do you spell it!?) my health. I'll have to come up and check this new flat of yours out. Have you found out what your other roommate(Russell?) is doing?

Later

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

Hey Slizor, just wanted to say I didn't forget about your ownership thing. I'm almost done with my counter to it. I've been busy with other stuff so it's taken me a while. I'll post it when I get the chance.

[Irish-Boy]

Yo biatch, exams fuckin done! Woohoo baby yeah! Got completely off my face yesterday, drinking from 11am. Haha. Can finally relax now, have done a grand total of fuck all today. Very proud of myself. Not proud of LCFC at the minute - fucking 4-1 today. What a load of shit. They have gone well lame. Also I heard they are £74 million in debt! Fucking ell! They best sort things out and get promoted. Think Torquay won today, they were winning at least. So yeh exams went ok in general, politics wasn't too bad, was writing up to the end and thats always a good sign. I did these Q's:
1. How have Labour's policies and ideologies changed since 1994? To what extent and why were these changes made?
2. How can the Conservative government of 1979-1990 be seen as a break from traditional Conservatism?
3. What have been the determinants for voting behaviour since 1945?
4. Should we be concerned about the media as a method of political communication?

Or summat like that. All pretty much questions that i hoped for. Thought i did ok. Had revised for the voting behaviour one so that was quite good, plus knew a lot about the Thatcher one and the media one. I did that Labour one last cos it was hardest. Only had like half an hour on it. Just wrote everything i knew about New Labour. Shit about Blair concentrating on education and health and stuff. Was a bit lame but i should have passed cos of my other 3 questions. Anyways I'll stop being boring now (yeah right) - saw flat again yesterday and signed contracts. Still like it, but everything was a wee bit smaller than i remembered. Good though. You'll have to come visit it next year - plenny o room on the floor next to my double bed. Haha! Hows things your end? FINALLY completed Tony Hawks. Took your time. How did you do Rune's pro challenge? That was a bit of a fucker. Oh yeah you know those Eddie Izzard CDs dad gave me - they are well funny. The basis or all our current jokes. Might have to get his new DVD or rent it or summat. Jack Dee is better the second time you see it as well. Eddie Izzard is good cos we can listen to it while we play Goldeneye - which is fuckin class by the way. Forgot how good it is on multiplayer. Have 4 controllers as well. Well good. Control ain't as good as PS2 Medal of Honour. I would really kick ass then (not that i don't anyway). Sniping expert that i am. Ah theres an idea i wanna see some Vasilli action, might watch it again. Aim for the eyes...

Later dude,
Pat

[Slizor]

Slowly I put snow in my mouth so he won't see me breathing
I aim for the eye
Then, slowly I squeeze the trigger
BANG!
(Then later you find out he missed and his grandfather shoots it "Forgive me grandfather, forgive me!)

Moving on...where the fuck did Leicester spend £74 million?! I mean they must have had money saved up already for the new ground instead of going and guessing they'd be in the Premiership for the net few years. Yeah, torquay won 3-1, but we still haven't got our top striker back...from wherever he is. your questions seem pretty easy(you best have mentioned Clause 4 in your Labour answer!) And what do you mean room on the floor? Isn't there a fucking sofa? And another thing, does it have a bath?

Things are fine over here, I had quite a few hours cut from my week with teachers being off. I re-read LOTR(all of them) in 10 days, which was pretty good going. Clearly I'm not adopted. And as for Tony Hawk's you have to do bonelesses to gain the extra height.

Wah! I can hear dad trying to sing "my kind of town" with his usual broken lyrics.
Anyhow, best be off
El Terro!

[Irish-Boy]

How do bonelesses get you extra height? since when? You must have found that out off the net you cheating beggar. Of COURSE i wrote about clase 4, it was about the only thing i could remember. I dunno what up with leicester being £74 million in debt. That is a complete load of bollocks. How the fuck did it happen? Did they not notice? Yeah we do have a sofa - 2 actually. And a bath. Bathroom is quite small though. Just found out that i have to do work in my breezeblock lectures now. Doh! But we only have 2 lectures a week instead of three. Woohoo! Foot is still broken, got loads worse yesterday when i had to run from the bus to go cinema, they walk all the way cos buses had stopped running. Not good. Film was though - Gangs of New York. Bloody class film, best film i've seen this year! (And, coincidentally, the worst). Anyways i'm starving so i'm off.
Later.

[Irish-Boy]

Oy you ignorant bee-hatch reply. You're just jealous cos it snowed here today, and it didn't in Leicester. Mwahahahahaha! I rule (yes me personally).

[Slizor]

Well bonelesses have probably always given you extra height, but we have just not needed to use them. Two sofas? Classy. Does it have its own TV? And those chairs....y'know comfy chairs. What happened to your foot? I heard that Gangs of New York was full of pointless violence....sounds good. I saw Two Towers with Dad on Sunday...quite frankly it's a horrific attempt at the story. THERE'S NO WALKING!

Chicken Curry tonight! Woo hoo(the same as that turkey one dad made)
Seeya

[Irish-Boy]

Yo bitch,
Yeah LOTR the film is a pile o shit full stop. The first one was wank anyway. Gangs of NYC however, is a top quality movie, no more needless violence than Braveheart, which is obviously a great film. So there. Oh yeah i got my mark back for the politics essay i did before Christmas: 63%. Not bad methinks since I did it on the day i had to hand it in (again). Politics is a lot easier to blag than i first imagined (he says now, before he finds out he's failed the exam..). Anyways it should be alright cos what i wrote in my 2 essays i wrote in the exam as well, so I should be picking up enough marks to pass. Found out we don't get our exam results till Feb 14th! Thats ages! However, i don't think you get yours till march so ha. I'm getting bored of writing drivel now, see ya later.

P.S I'm going to the Newcastle Vs Arsenal game on Sunday! Woohoo! We'll probably get killed though cos Rob is a die-hard Arsenal fan and we'll be sitting in the toon end. Oh dear..

At 1/30/03 01:47 PM, Slizor wrote: Well bonelesses have probably always given you extra height, but we have just not needed to use them. Two sofas? Classy. Does it have its own TV? And those chairs....y'know comfy chairs. What happened to your foot? I heard that Gangs of New York was full of pointless violence....sounds good. I saw Two Towers with Dad on Sunday...quite frankly it's a horrific attempt at the story. THERE'S NO WALKING!

Chicken Curry tonight! Woo hoo(the same as that turkey one dad made)
Seeya

[Irish-Boy]

Oy you meat-headed shit sack, why no reply? Went to arsenal game yesterday, pretty good. Rob got his Arsenal shirt signed by Pires, Lauren and Arsene Wenger. Not bad eh? Also we got photos of pires, wenger, ash cole, viera, bergkamp, wiltord, keown. The main man Thierry somehow evaded us. Not impressed with that. Overall was good though, 1-1 is a decent scoreline. Anyways I got a lecture now, was just checking if you'd finally replied. Evidently not.
Later

P.S We didn't get killed at the game!

[Slizor]

Sorry, een distracted by some igit who thinks that a connotation is put in by the author instead of recieved by the audience. Rob has his Arsenal shirt...and you survived?! Ahh...I had threew hours off today due to my last lesson being cancelled(which really means I have a shit timetale usually.) Urm...I got the Sims on the PS2(I PC is too shit for the PC one.) And I went to "Ask!" on Saturday with my friends and dressed up all posh....it was shite...pure shite. And I'm off to London this weekend! Woo hoo!
See ya.