The Drowning Man

[MoralLibertarian]

A man runs a ferry business, and as he is taking his customers for a leisurely boat-ride, he finds a man struggling for help. He throws the man a life jacket, pulls him into the boat, and puts a blanket around him.

The ferry ride comes to a close. How should the ferryman charge the drowning man?

Should he charge him nothing? Should he charge him the standard fare for a ferry ride? Or should he charge him his first-born?

[adamsaysmoesgay]

What he should do, is charge him nothing.

[MoralLibertarian]

Why? Did the drowning man not use the service?

[poxpower]

here's how I would solve this:

The more often this happens, the more chances he has of charging him. Because if people heard of this, they'd throw themselves in the water to get it for free. Or not.

So yeah, he shouldn't charge the guy at first, also on account that he probably was having one hell of a bad day. And also, what is he going to do if the guy doesn't pay? Throw him back in? haha.

This kind of question is always situational anyways. there is not 'something' the guy should do in all cases. Ever. Does he need money? Who did he rescue? Are there other circumstances? Was the guy Hitler?

you knows

[LazyDrunk]

At 2/20/06 10:27 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote:
The ferry ride comes to a close. How should the ferryman charge the drowning man?

First the ferry owner should find out if the guy had originally bought a ticket, fell off his ferry, then was rescued. Or discover the guy never paid in the first place, jumped off the ferry to be saved, then got a free ride. Or he could just be some dude that fell in the water.

If it's the first time, yeah, it should be free.

Should he charge him nothing? Should he charge him the standard fare for a ferry ride? Or should he charge him his first-born?

What pox was saying is right though. To solve the 'people doing it on prupose' dilemma, all the ferry owner has to do is "not notice" when someone else tries it. How does he know what's fake and what's real? He doesn't. But that's what keeps people from intentionally screwing him.

[poxpower]

Actualy I have a better answer now:

You can't give a service to someone without them asking and expect them to pay for it.

yeah :o
I couldn't trim your hedges and demand 10 bucks.

So if the ferryman agreed to take him onboard without ever asking if the man was going to pay, then he just gave away a free ride.

[mayeram]

At 2/20/06 11:02 AM, -poxpower- wrote:

This kind of question is always situational anyways. there is not 'something' the guy should do in all cases. Ever. Does he need money? Who did he rescue? Are there other circumstances? Was the guy Hitler?

Good one pox, only a sith deals in absolutes there are always complications. The world is not black and white.

[fli]

At 2/20/06 11:47 AM, -poxpower- wrote: Actualy I have a better answer now:

You can't give a service to someone without them asking and expect them to pay for it.

yeah :o
I couldn't trim your hedges and demand 10 bucks.

So if the ferryman agreed to take him onboard without ever asking if the man was going to pay, then he just gave away a free ride.

Although--
what option does the ferryman have?

Someone comes over and cuts my shrubs and expects to be paid, and I'll say-- "feckof."

I can't say the same if I saw a drawning person.

[LazyDrunk]

At 2/20/06 12:39 PM, fli wrote:
I can't say the same if I saw a drawning person.

So fli, how do you determine if a person is drowning or not?

[RedSkunk]

I don't see how the drowning man could be charged, as Pox's second post pointed out. The hedge-trimming comparison.

[x-Toadenalin-x]

At 2/20/06 01:04 PM, redskvnk wrote: I don't see how the drowning man could be charged, as Pox's second post pointed out. The hedge-trimming comparison.

What if the drowning man was going "Help! Help!"... you could make the comparison that if you stood in the street and said "Trim my hedges" to the first person you met, you'd have a duty to pay them.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/20/06 01:16 PM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote: What if the drowning man was going "Help! Help!"... you could make the comparison that if you stood in the street and said "Trim my hedges" to the first person you met, you'd have a duty to pay them.

Yelling "help" wouldn't be asking for a ferry ride. It'd be asking for help. The ferry could very well turn around if it wasn't past the half-way point in the body of water in question.

If he was just swimming along, and asked for a ride, then the case could be made that he should be charged for the ride. But the life-or-death aspect is at hand here. Asking the guy if he has change for the ferry ride before helping him, or throwing him back if he didn't, is negligent, and the ferry-owner could be charged.

[MoralLibertarian]

At 2/20/06 01:04 PM, redskvnk wrote: I don't see how the drowning man could be charged, as Pox's second post pointed out. The hedge-trimming comparison.

Obviously if he's drowning, he wants help. Unless he doesn't want help, in which case he can continue to drown.

It's obviously fair for the ferry-man to charge the man standard fare to the drowning man. Why should a man get a free ride just because he's drowning?

[LazyDrunk]

At 2/20/06 01:22 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote:

At 2/20/06 01:04 PM, redskvnk wrote: I don't see how the drowning man could be charged, as Pox's second post pointed out. The hedge-trimming comparison.

Obviously if he's drowning, he wants help. Unless he doesn't want help, in which case he can continue to drown.

It's obviously fair for the ferry-man to charge the man standard fare to the drowning man. Why should a man get a free ride just because he's drowning?

Because men who can't swim generally don't swim in waters where ferries are necessary to cross safely. Does he have no boat? No friends with him? Why is there a man drowning in the first place? He could've been a paying customer on the ferries last voyage, was thrown off by another ferry passenger, and is now drowning in the water.

Circumstances. If you want to apply this to how government aides people, you gotta look at the circumstances.

[x-Toadenalin-x]

At 2/20/06 01:22 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote:

At 2/20/06 01:04 PM, redskvnk wrote: I don't see how the drowning man could be charged, as Pox's second post pointed out. The hedge-trimming comparison.

Obviously if he's drowning, he wants help. Unless he doesn't want help, in which case he can continue to drown.

It's obviously fair for the ferry-man to charge the man standard fare to the drowning man. Why should a man get a free ride just because he's drowning?

Its just occured to me he wouldn't have any money... but apart from that, maybe you could use the 'tit-for-tat' argument. Of EVERYONE agrees to rescue drowning men for free, then no ferry owner needs to fear losing a passenger, which would be good for their profits.
Unfortunately, this does not solve the problem that people could just jump off to get a free ride.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/20/06 01:22 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: Obviously if he's drowning, he wants help. Unless he doesn't want help, in which case he can continue to drown.

I already addressed this. Asking for help is not asking for the services the ferry is providing. Additionally, while I might want someone to cut my hedges, I'm not going to pay just anyone who comes along and cuts them.

The drowning man is not soliciting for a ferry. Why don't you explain your purpose of the thread, rooster. What are you getting at?

[x-Toadenalin-x]

At 2/20/06 01:40 PM, redskvnk wrote: Why don't you explain your purpose of the thread, rooster. What are you getting at?

I'm enjoying the argument for its own sake. Every part of my morality says "Give him the ride for free" but I'd never really questioned why

Great thread

[MoralLibertarian]

At 2/20/06 01:40 PM, redskvnk wrote:

At 2/20/06 01:22 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: Obviously if he's drowning, he wants help. Unless he doesn't want help, in which case he can continue to drown.

I already addressed this. Asking for help is not asking for the services the ferry is providing. Additionally, while I might want someone to cut my hedges, I'm not going to pay just anyone who comes along and cuts them.

He's getting a ride, isn't he. It's either the ferry or drowning. Next time you're drowning, I'm not rescuing you because you don't feel like paying just anyone who comes along to save your life.

The drowning man is not soliciting for a ferry.

You're right, the ferryman should just pass him by. It's not his job to save lives.

Why don't you explain your purpose of the thread, rooster. What are you getting at?

Figure it out.

[Me-Patch]

At 2/20/06 02:00 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: He's getting a ride, isn't he. It's either the ferry or drowning. Next time you're drowning, I'm not rescuing you because you don't feel like paying just anyone who comes along to save your life.

Spoken like a true Libretarian

[RedSkunk]

At 2/20/06 02:00 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: You're right, the ferryman should just pass him by. It's not his job to save lives.

Depends on the laws on the books. But if your hypothetical ferryman has no ethics, then sure. but again, you haven't refuted Pox's point. The ferry is providing a service. The drowning man does not ask for that service. A person can't be required to pay for a private service they don't ask for. That makes no sense.

[Orcinator]

I'm wondering why would anyone jump into a river/lake just to get a free ferry ride? Wont he get wet and maybe sick plus theres the chance the ferry wont notice him. I think pretending to drown to get something is being very stupid

[MoralLibertarian]

At 2/20/06 01:56 PM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote:

At 2/20/06 01:40 PM, redskvnk wrote: Why don't you explain your purpose of the thread, rooster. What are you getting at?

I'm enjoying the argument for its own sake. Every part of my morality says "Give him the ride for free" but I'd never really questioned why

I think that's Christian morality. We are taught to take care of the poorest and most unfortunate among them. Still: if the person can afford to pay for the ferry ride, why on earth wouldn't he charge the person? He's still doing him a service no matter how you slice it. There would be those who also would think that the ferry-man is entitled to more than fair market price of the ferry ride, and that is prohibited under Islamic law.

Great thread

Thanks.

[MoralLibertarian]

At 2/20/06 02:08 PM, redskvnk wrote:

At 2/20/06 02:00 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: You're right, the ferryman should just pass him by. It's not his job to save lives.

Depends on the laws on the books. But if your hypothetical ferryman has no ethics, then sure. but again, you haven't refuted Pox's point. The ferry is providing a service. The drowning man does not ask for that service. A person can't be required to pay for a private service they don't ask for. That makes no sense.

I'm pretty sure the drowning man is asking for that service by saying, "Help me! Help me! I'm drowning!"

[RedSkunk]

At 2/20/06 02:14 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: I'm pretty sure the drowning man is asking for that service by saying, "Help me! Help me! I'm drowning!"

He's not asking to be ferried from one shore to the other. He's asking to be saved from drowning. You might think this is a semantics argument, but it's not. If I want my hedges cut, I want the hedges cut. Not the grass.

[MoralLibertarian]

Fine skunk. You're not asking for a ferry ride, but you're asking to have your life saved.

Well here are my ferry rates.

1 ferry ride: 5 bucks.
1 saved life: 50 bucks. That's a special rate, just for you.

[ReiperX]

If the ferry operator saves the drowning person's life, then the peson is offering the service for free, unless he says pay me or drown. If he wants a special rate, then maybe he should post a sign stating the special pricing. As far as people jumping off to get a free ride, make them buy a ticket before the ferry leaves. But from a business prospective, if the ferry operator just ignores the drowning man, or charges him for it, its very bad PR, especially if other passangers find out about it and spread it out. So even though the operator isn't obligated to help the drowning man out, if he wants positive PR he is going to help them out.

[RedSkunk]

It runs against most people's moral codes, and the law depending on where you are, but if you want to, fine.

Do you ask for the money before or after hauling him aboard? Do you make the person pay a surcharge if the money is wet? After all, wet money has to be dried out before being invested into anything. Valuable time wasted, right?

[MoralLibertarian]

At 2/20/06 03:04 PM, redskvnk wrote: It runs against most people's moral codes, and the law depending on where you are, but if you want to, fine.

Do you ask for the money before or after hauling him aboard?

Usually the saved realize that they've been done a great favor and offer reward money if they have it. Usually the reward money is more than the market rate of a ferry ride. Then the ferryman says, "No thanks, you are very kind, but I'll just take the market rate of the ferry ride." Or if he wants to accept the extra cash, he says, "Thanks very much sir. If you're ever drowning again, let me know and I'll come for you." To be honest, you all are the first and only people I've ever met who would not reward a person for saving their life. You lefties and your entitlements. At least say thanks to the man.

Do you make the person pay a surcharge if the money is wet? After all, wet money has to be dried out before being invested into anything. Valuable time wasted, right?

Now you're just being ridiculous.

[poxpower]

At 2/20/06 02:42 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: Fine skunk. You're not asking for a ferry ride, but you're asking to have your life saved.

Well here are my ferry rates.

1 ferry ride: 5 bucks.
1 saved life: 50 bucks. That's a special rate, just for you.

If he just went 'save me save me' in full knowledge that to be saved by this man, it costs 50 bucks, then the ferryman has a right to charge him ( and by right I mean it would be accepted under law and social principles ).
But if he saved him and then goes 'saving your life costs XXX' then its not fair.

Another example for you: If I save your life, but then pretend that the cost of it is you being enslaved to me forever, you can refuse and tell me to shut up.

After the ride is provided, its too late for the ferryman to ask anything unless they agreed prior to said saving, that's how commerce works. If I give you something without telling you the price, I can't later ask for a price, and in that example the ride and life-saving were CLEARLY a gift.

so yeah what ARE you getting at? Was this a metaphor or just a fun mind tickler thing?

[poxpower]

Oh and of course, the saved guy would probably pay up or give the ferryman a blowjob for his services. Something. Its just that the ferryman can't be expected to receive anything if he saved a cheap bastard.

At 2/20/06 04:01 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote:

At 2/20/06 03:04 PM, redskvnk wrote: Do you make the person pay a surcharge if the money is wet? After all, wet money has to be dried out before being invested into anything. Valuable time wasted, right?

Now you're just being ridiculous.

he was totaly serious.