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Lidov :

That is because there are a lot of people in there who likes the country and that everyone knows that the country needs them

I wish the same could be said for my country, but then again, that's a whole different can of worms......

Do you think if your army was completely volunteer it would be as strong or as effective as required service?

Obviously you guys have a much stronger incentive to protect your nation and join up than most, but to what extent do you think a volunteer force would affect Israel's ability to defend itself?

Sorry for all the questions, I just don't know tons of people from Israel and thus don't know all that much about y'all......

Ignorance is bliss, but I've always been a pessimist.......lol.......

At 1/6/06 05:52 PM, fenrus1989 wrote: Funny comment but when was the last time a Navy Ship actually sank. The biggest thing i can think of is the USS Cole incident, which was bad(7 deaths i think) but not anywhere near fatal.

17 Sailors died, 39 injured. The explosives filled boat hit the messdecks during lunch.
I don't think a US Navy ship has been sunk as a result of enemy action since WW2.

At 1/6/06 06:32 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote:

At 1/6/06 05:52 PM, fenrus1989 wrote:

17 Sailors died, 39 injured. The explosives filled boat hit the messdecks during lunch.
I don't think a US Navy ship has been sunk as a result of enemy action since WW2.

Alright i was off by a good amount, But yes this is bad, but i mean it's not like USS Indianopolist type of situation.

I'm not really too torn up about the Cole. I'm glad that a US Warship was hit instead of an apartment complex or some other civillian target. The thing that REALLY bothers me is that our rules of engagement still leave us exposed to this sort of thing. The specific threat of a small craft full of explosives has been dealt with to some degree, but I'd assume that our enemies are at least as crafty as we are, and they only need to think of one idea that hasn't occurred to us yet to cause serious damage.

I'd really like to create an image that Military warships are filled with trigger happy psychopaths that will shoot at anyone who gets within a certain range without explicit permission and escort.

At 1/6/06 05:52 PM, Imperator wrote: Do you think if your army was completely volunteer it would be as strong or as effective as required service?

Well, if it would be completely colunteer, I am sure that it would be a lot less powerful than it is now. The thing is that the army in Israel is not only built from the soldiers from 18-21 and commanders, but also from people who already passed the army. After the already completed their due to the country from age 18 to 21, they have some filling up to do and they have to go to the army again from time to time. In a case of a war, the astimations are that we can get over 600,000 soldiers, most of them over 21. So, god knows what would Happen in a case of was without those people who already passed the army.

Obviously you guys have a much stronger incentive to protect your nation and join up than most, but to what extent do you think a volunteer force would affect Israel's ability to defend itself?

Well, the fact that we would have a lot smaller force would effect a lot the ability of Israel to defend itself. Unless the law of the valunteer is very well phrased and says that in a case of danger, yo would have to go to the army if the state asks you to, it is bad. And if there is this law, why not train the soldiers when they are young?

Sorry for all the questions, I just don't know tons of people from Israel and thus don't know all that much about y'all......
Ignorance is bliss, but I've always been a pessimist.......lol.......

Hey, no need to appologize, I don't care answering questions about Israel, it is even fun. BTW If you have question about Israel which are not related to military-volunteer\required, you can go to "Ask all israel related questions", there is a link to it in my sig.

At 1/6/06 12:59 PM, Imperator wrote:

Martyr 18

Good luck, and have fun!

Haha thanks alot man! and I will try.

At 1/6/06 11:38 AM, TheMartyr18 wrote: Im joining the national Gaurd next week ^.^

More like the Boyscouts with Guns

I'll probley join the good ol' Canadian forces some time. I don't care about boats or choppers, give me a gun and I'll get the job done, or become a martyr in the attempt.

Besides, I can retire at age 35.

I'd say it's a great idea, but is more of a last choice for me. In the situation that I'm inexplicably striken homeless and freezing on the streets, it's off to the armed forces for me!

At 1/6/06 10:17 PM, Dinodoode wrote:

At 1/6/06 11:38 AM, TheMartyr18 wrote: Im joining the national Gaurd next week ^.^

More like the Boyscouts with Guns

Call it what you will my friend...

At 1/6/06 10:17 PM, Dinodoode wrote:

At 1/6/06 11:38 AM, TheMartyr18 wrote: Im joining the national Gaurd next week ^.^

More like the Boyscouts with Guns

You are aware that there are National Guardsmen in Iraq currently.

Almost finished my ROTC program. Im gonna go with the marines and be posted in Korea. Rumor is theres gonna be another one there in about 2-8 years so im gonna stick around there for a while or maybe transfer to a hot spot in the middle east.

Rumor is theres gonna be another one there in about 2-8 years

Another war in Korea you mean?

I think that's all it'll amount to, rumors. But have fun anyways, Korean Breakdancers are the best in the world IMO, you should try to check em out.

North and South Korea are at war right now. The whole thing is just waiting to explode.

At 1/7/06 01:06 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: North and South Korea are at war right now. The whole thing is just waiting to explode.

I got a friend from Korea who has been living here on a visa for the last 4 years. Had to go back to Korea to visit his father. His dad had a heart attack and he needed to visit him. Well, he went into the country and when you do that as a South Korean and you are 18 or above male, you are forced in to service.

Needless to say, he was forced into service.

He was gonna join the US military to in January to get his American citzenship. Poor kid, he was totally fucked over on this one. I feel really bad for him cause I sure as hell would not want to be sitting on the border there.

Well, I hope hes alright and will continue to be. I dunno though, North Korea scares me.

You can get free flight tickets!

At this point and for the past few years, a lot of people just get sent to obscure areas. For example, my cousin was sent to Egypt and Korea, but not Iraq or the Middle East. So it's really all relevant as to what you can give to the Army. If you're a good fighter, have fun in Iraq. If fighting's not your style, you usually won't get sent out unless they need medics or Technicians.

I would like to point to a famous psychological experiment where people were led to believe that they were the ones administering a shock to another test subject (who really just part of the experiment). So it went like this...

In the experiment, the vast majority of people would administer a shock capable of killing another person.

This suggested thatthe majority of people would kill another person under orderes, provided that there is a certain distance between the two, that the commander has authority, and nearness of commander.
Even when the two were fairly close, a good portion of people reached the maximum shock dosage.
Before this experiment, leading psychologists were asked about their predictions. Most predicted that the vast majority of people would stop just a few voltages up, and clearly they were mistaken.

At 1/7/06 12:38 AM, Itachi-kun wrote: Almost finished my ROTC program. Im gonna go with the marines and be posted in Korea. Rumor is theres gonna be another one there in about 2-8 years so im gonna stick around there for a while or maybe transfer to a hot spot in the middle east.

No Shit man...

Well good luck to 'ya. I'll be off to Iraq.

At 1/6/06 12:59 PM, Imperator wrote:

Would you be opposed to a job like say, artillary spotter, or ammo loader (for a tank or something), where you were not directly killing someone, but helping others do their jobs?

I think I would be. From an intellectual point of view, certainly - there is no difference (to me) between, say, calling an airstrike on a target and actually dropping the bombs. Either way, people die because of your actions.
I think the only sort of job I'b be comfortable with would be a field medic, hostage negotiater or chaplain - although I'd be helping people to keep fighting, I think the good I'd do would outweigh the bad.

And as far as I know, most people will only follow orders to certain extents. If an order contradicts human rights or the Geneva Convention, then you ( I think legally too) shouldn't follow it.

I'm not so sure. I do armchair psycology and there are a number of famous experiments that seem to show people will follow orders no matter what.
99% of people will pass on a request to kill somone
60% of people will administer a 'lethal dose' of electricity
30% of people will actually force someone's hand onto a shock plate
The Milgram Experiment

Added to that, 80% of people will follow smaller requests from researchers dressed as policemen, compared to 5% dressed as a dustman (Orders like "Pick up that bag" or "Lend me a dollar")

Take the Nuremburg Trials as an example. The "I'm only following orders" defence really didn't play out as well as those Germans thought........

Possibly... but the Allies were feeling quite vengeful - understandably so.
A better example might be the My Lai case in Viatnam. This was the killing of around 40 surrendered civilians by two Americans, followed by an American trial. The 'Only Following Orders' worked, I believe

At 1/7/06 06:16 AM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote: I think the only sort of job I'b be comfortable with would be a field medic, hostage negotiater or chaplain - although I'd be helping people to keep fighting, I think the good I'd do would outweigh the bad.

Military service is not all just killing and destroying wholesale. MP's are often in positions where they must defuse otherwise lethal situations. Military engineers build roads, airports, and city improvements for the good of the public. And let us not forget the Coast Guard, my blessed service. The Coast Guard saves ten lives a day, upkeeps our nation's vast and hugely important maritime navigational system, protects ports at home and abroad, cleans up after hazardous spills and disasters, enforces US laws in US territorial seas, and so much more. There is no service like it.

I'm not so sure. I do armchair psycology and there are a number of famous experiments that seem to show people will follow orders no matter what.

You assume that you will be too weak to do the right thing.

At 1/7/06 08:56 AM, TheloniousMONK wrote:

Military service is not all just killing and destroying wholesale.

I agree. I didn't say the military was a bad thing, I just said I would be uncomfortable joining it. On the whole, the army does more good than bad, and I respect the army as an institution. I simply do not want to be part of it.

I'm not so sure. I do armchair psycology and there are a number of famous experiments that seem to show people will follow orders no matter what.

You assume that you will be too weak to do the right thing.

That's the thing - I think I would be. It would be arrogant to assume that I am in some way morally superior to the people that were tested, and in a combat situation I'm sure my sense of morality would be even further diluted.

I am well experienced with Psychology, not a degree holder or anything, but I've taken 3 or 4 classes.

Look up Milgram experiment variables too. They show cases where something else happens (like someone else decides not to shock before you) where the chances that you give the subject a shock vastly decrease.

And the Milgram experiment was done (I think) sometime in the 50's or 60's, after WWII, when people were questioning how someone could do such horrible things in concentration camp.

You also have to consider the social climate, Dictator, Gestapo,weak economy and standing after WWI, etc.

The fact that you would be an American soldier (exposed to debate, freedom, dissent against authrity in general) probably vastly reduces the chance that you would "shock".

once you kill a man with your hand nothing could really shock you anymore i think(in terms of blood and stuff i think)

but would allowing homeless people to join the military actually reduce there numbers? i mean i doubt the really bad conditioned ones might not put down the oportunity if showed what you could offer them.

but anyway for me, joining the military is not an option. One as my hair is rather long and i am not going to let anyone near it as you have to shave it and all which i do not like. Two, the strictness involved in it can be overwhelming from a documentary i saw recently over here in britain named "Bad lads army" ii mean the strict rule on self grooming(i am one for it and would gladly do it) but not being allowed to have a wrinkle in a shirt or anything i think is over the top. Lastly if one person fucks up in an expection the whole group gets punished(or so i have seen)

Having a wrinkled shirt can catch a lot of hell, as a result, I spend most of my time wearing well ironed pants with a jacket over my shirt. A jacket is not expected to be ironed so I can get away with having a less than perfect uniform. I do tend to get weird looks in the summer, but I work in an extremely cold environment (The Communications center is kept very cold.) so most people don't really think it's that out of place.

Also, on the little experiment with electrical shock. One thing that must be remembered is that Americans hold scientists in extremely high regard. Most people really don't give a crap about science, but they all know that it's important and that scientists deserve our respect. I imagine that people will trust a scientist over their own judgment because, after all, he's a scientist and I'm just some idiot.

dont join military you die for a bad cause.....

At 1/7/06 07:49 PM, fearthemonkey1 wrote: dont join military you die for a bad cause.....

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

no, i wouldnt even consider it. it wouldnt help me reach my goals in life. it would only be a waist of 4 years for me.

At 1/7/06 11:02 PM, psycho-squirrel wrote: no, i wouldnt even consider it. it wouldnt help me reach my goals in life. it would only be a waist of 4 years for me.

Whether or not it would help you reach whatever goals you have set for yourself, I assure you it would not be a waste.

At 1/7/06 11:02 PM, psycho-squirrel wrote: no, i wouldnt even consider it. it wouldnt help me reach my goals in life. it would only be a waist of 4 years for me.

Time spent in the military or serving your country is never wasted. Just makes me think what exactly your goals in life are.