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At 12/23/05 06:50 PM, Jinzoa wrote: ok well here are some i dug up:

Should we kill?

In reading the cited scripture verses I noticed a recurring theme. the first two stated that murder (The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice) is wrong. The next five were advocating killing for a just cause, not murder. No where does the Bible say that killing is wrong, it says that only that certain type of killing is wrong, which makes a lot of sence.

James 2:21; "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what de did when he offered his son Isaac on the alter?" Also, as this scripture verse implies, if God commandes you to kill someone, you do it. His word is law and you better believe that He has a good and just reason for it. Of course, Abraham did not end up killing Isaac as the entire thing was a test of Abrahams faith, but the point is still valid.

Should we tell lies?

Again, in reading the cited verses, I found a similar theme. The first two stated that lying is wrong, but no where else did it say that it was ok to lie. In 1 Kings 22:23 it says; "So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you." ( I know that it's different from what you wrote, I'm using a NIV (New International Version) Bible, it's much easier to understand) You'll notice that the Lord does not force anyone to lie. Thessalonians 2:11 is very similar, God uses lying for a purpose but only on those who are already sinners and who would otherwise lie anyway. In fact in Thessalonians 2:11 God sent the people described, a "powerful delusion" that caused them to believe some one elses lie, this was to serve a purpose.

Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

This one was very interesting, but also the easiest to answer, just read james 2:26 which states; "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." She lied for a good reason, as an example, do you think that God would not be forgiving of a lie if it meant that by telling that lie, you saved another persons life? It all depends on your intentions. If you intend on hurting someone with a lie, then it is a terrible sin. If you intend on helping someone with a lie, then it is fogivable if not even praisable.

You can't assume that just because in a few scripture verses is says not to lie or not to kill that the entire Bible will be devoid of lying and killing. Such actions that would otherwise be considered sinning do sometimes take place to serve a greater purpose, God works not only through good people but also through those who are evil.

Also you can't read just one verse and only that one verse and claim that the Bible says something, you need to put it into context and read the surroundind verses aswell.

If you go through the Bible looking for contradictions then, in your mind, that is what you will find. If you look through the Bible with curiosity, an open and fair mind, then truth you will find.

The majority of the Bible is based around the Ten Commandments, the morals that they represent and the many stories telling of how people in the past have interpreted them and put them into practice. Those stories are meant to help you fully understand and accurately interprete the Ten Commandments. The specific set of circumstances that surround each of the actions taken by any given person that God is working through, justifies the actions that they take, a similar set of circumstances do not justify the same actions as every situation is different.

To sum it all up I will employ the use of a simile. The US Constitution is a set of laws for the USA just as the Ten Commandments are a set of laws for people. The Constitution needs judges to interpret it, the Ten Commandments have the stories in the Bible to help interpret them.

The Bible is sometimes very hard to understand, (using a King James version only makes it harder) so I do not blame you for thinking that the Bible contradicts itself. If you think you find any more contradictions, please let me know, I would be happy to clear them up for you.

I apologise if I am a little too vague on some of the points I was trying to make, it is about 3:00am when I am wrighting this. I fear that I may not be adequately coherent, so if you have any questions please feel free to ask :)

At 12/22/05 09:52 PM, Elfer wrote:
Yes, kill people of other faiths, and no, don't learn about their beliefs or culture.

I dont like the fact that you've mentioned something unpleasent from my mythical holy book so i'm going to tell you you've taken it out of context despite the obviousness of what it is saying. Then i'll hide in bed with a metal pot on my head and pretend the question was never asked.

So, let me get this straight: Bush, the Ominent God of Wisdom (/sarcasm), believes every last word of the bible. He read the part of "Thou shallt not kill", and looked back at 9/11. He then threw a dart on the "Map of Arabian Countries of Doooooooom (and Satan)", and declared war on the one the dart hit. Ofcourse, all the good, Christian americans, went out to murder people on his Wise and Intelligent command. Hoo-zah.

Doesnt anyone find the "Thou shalt not kill" thing, and the entire "War on terror" thing a bit...contradictory? (Or however you spell that.)

lol that is very true but sorry i forgot to mention that most people would normally agree to those contradicitons but it is the contradictions of ones own perceptions of the bible as you pointed out. One can interperit it humanley(logicly if you will) or for their own beliefs as you pointed out. Ill see if i can find any more for you

ok here are some that i have obtained for now(wont do to many as you spent ages last time lol)

In Exodus 33:20, says God, "Thou canst not see my face; for there shall be no man see me and live." God must have been mistaken, or changed: For in Genesis 32:30 Jacob sees God "face to face" and lives. The same for Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 elders, who saw God, and ate and drank with him (Exodus 24:9-11). But not so, says First John 1:18: "No man hath seen God at any time."

MATTHEW quotes Jesus (19:26), "with God all things are possible." but In the Book of Judges (1:19) it states in a way God is not almighty, as he helped rid Judah of inhabitants of the mountain, but could not drive out those in the valley "because they had chariots of iron."
This God of miracles apparently can move the largest body in the solar system, the Sun (or at least stop planet earth), in order to prolong daylight for Joshua's military revenge (or to move the sun's shadow 10 degrees backward [2 Kings 20:10-11 or Isaiah 38:7- 8]). Yet he cannot stop charriots?

God dwells "in the light which no man can approach" (1 Tim. 6:l6). But this is not true, as in First Kings 8:12 it says: "The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness."
Would literalists say I shouldn't be so "literal"? Is the "light" in which Jesus dwells "en(light)enment?" Does God remain in thick darkness but keeps this "light" of enlightenment?

sorry not trying to be bias against the bible(though having an aim to look up contradictions contradicts myself-.-) just showing some things were i get confused atleast. I dare not to interpret them myself due to me not fully reading the bible(no point in trying to interperit parts if i aint had a read)

You must remember that the bible is nearly 2000 years old, and was written by many different people; you shouldn't expect it to be perfect..

At 12/24/05 09:05 AM, _Nevyn_ wrote:
Doesnt anyone find the "Thou shalt not kill" thing, and the entire "War on terror" thing a bit...contradictory? (Or however you spell that.)

You dont have to look too far back in history to see how religious people take "Thou shalt not kill", more people have been murdered in the name of god than for any other reason.

The Bible is open to interpretation, but then again, some drunken scribes wrote is how long ago? No matter what the Bible does or does not say, it’s a crime to kill another person and it’s a personal burden when you do, so I’m told.

And that's in the Christian bible, right?

At 12/24/05 03:13 PM, cereal_killer11 wrote: And that's in the Christian bible, right?

Deuteronomy is not only in the new testament, but also in the old one. It was actually taken by the Christians from the old testament. Deuteronomy is the last book in the bigger book called "Tanakh", in Hebrew, it's name is "Dvarim". However, I guess that they misstranslated it when they translated it to English, because it doesn't say you can kill other people at all.

At 12/22/05 10:05 PM, Elfer wrote: Also, I'd like to see you interpret your way out of Deuteronomy 17:2-7, verses which essentially explicitly state that "If you find someone among yourselves who has worshipped or served another god, stone him to death"

Woooooow... This is as far Ive gottejn in this thread, but woooooow.. isnt this the same God who said "judge not lest ye be judged", when a man hits you on the cheek let him hit you again, blah blah blah blha.. and now he is saying Death to infidels?.... Ill openly admit that I havnt touched a bible in a long time, and Don't know it accurately...... but Damn!

At 12/24/05 04:19 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

At 12/22/05 10:05 PM, Elfer wrote:

Woooooow... This is as far Ive gottejn in this thread, but woooooow.. isnt this the same God who said "judge not lest ye be judged", when a man hits you on the cheek let him hit you again, blah blah blah blha.. and now he is saying Death to infidels?.... Ill openly admit that I havnt touched a bible in a long time, and Don't know it accurately...... but Damn!

no not deat to infidels merely death to people born as jews and thus are binded by the laws of the bible.

At 12/24/05 06:14 PM, sylvosthemaccabee wrote:

At 12/24/05 04:19 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

At 12/22/05 10:05 PM, Elfer wrote:

Woooooow... This is as far Ive gottejn in this thread, but woooooow.. isnt this the same God who said "judge not lest ye be judged", when a man hits you on the cheek let him hit you again, blah blah blah blha.. and now he is saying Death to infidels?.... Ill openly admit that I havnt touched a bible in a long time, and Don't know it accurately...... but Damn!

no not deat to infidels merely death to people born as jews and thus are binded by the laws of the bible.

Well if what your saying is true, hitler was an upstanding embodiment of christian principles..... Seriously though what are the Jews doing... in general they're okay people.. I mean they gave us spaceballs.... spaceballs...

At 12/24/05 06:30 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:
in general they're okay people.. I mean they gave us spaceballs.... spaceballs...

dont forget blazing saddles ^_^

At 12/24/05 07:33 PM, sylvosthemaccabee wrote:

At 12/24/05 06:30 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:
in general they're okay people.. I mean they gave us spaceballs.... spaceballs...

dont forget blazing saddles ^_^

And All the Adam Sandler movies....... Wait a second... maybe the holocaust had a good point afterall -.-

At 12/22/05 09:48 PM, ironmaiden233 wrote: Kill those of other faiths. 12:30 Deuteronomy

So there you have it

Oh, really? And what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? That's one of the Ten Commandments, not an ambiguous statement made in the Bible.

At 12/24/05 12:15 PM, Jinzoa wrote: ok here are some that i have obtained for now(wont do to many as you spent ages last time lol)

Sorry I'm taking so long, it being the holidays and all I find myself with little time to do the necesary reading.

#1 The face of God. Exodus 33:20 says; "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live".

The face of God is a metaphore for Gods true form, not a physical face as we would think of it, the verse even implies that Gods face is God. God has many forms, the most well known being Jesus Christ. God can and does appear to people in the Bible as men but because those "men" aren't Gods true form, then the people who see them don't die. Other forms of God include a cloud and a pillar of fire, a burning bush, ect... Some of Gods forms are rather abstract but He uses them all to serve His specific purposes. Any time the Bible says that someone sees God, they mean that they have seen some form of God, which is still God, just not the true form that would kill them.

#2 With God all things are possible. Judges 1;19 says; "The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots."

You'll notice that God is with the men, He is not fighting beside the men. I believe that by "with the men" the Bible means that they had Gods blessing. That verse does not say that God cannot destroy (or do anything to) iron chariots, or anything else for that matter.

#3 God dwells in the light. 1 Timothy 6:16 says; "who alone is imortal and lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen." 1 Kings 8:12-13 says; "Then Soloman said, "The Lord has said he would dwell in a dark cloud; I have indeed built a magnificent temple for you, a place for you to dwell forever.""

This one is rather abstract and requires some assumptions and imagination. The part about "en(light)enment" is irrelavant because it is an assumption, no where does it say that "light" in this context means, or is a metaphore for, enlightenment. The light that is referred to could be a metaphore for Gods true form (the face of God) which we know would kill anyone who looked upon it, but again, all that is irrelavant. The "dark cloud" or the "thick darkness" could be a form that God has taken, or a way to hide His true form. Furthermore, it does not appear that these two scripture verses are even related, I believe that they are talking about two sepperate things all together as the context is completely different.

sorry not trying to be bias against the bible(though having an aim to look up contradictions contradicts myself-.-) just showing some things were i get confused atleast. I dare not to interpret them myself due to me not fully reading the bible(no point in trying to interperit parts if i aint had a read)

I do realize that you are not Bible bashing or anything, I understand where you are coming from. These are very good questions, I'm just glad that I can answer them for you. Just so you know, I haven't read the Bible all the way through either, I've never really had a good reason to even pick it up until now (though I have anyway). I hope that doesn't hurt my credibility, but on the other hand I guess that it shows that just anyone can find the answers that they are looking for in the Bible, (this is like the third time I've said this) you just need to keep an open and fair mind, just remember to read the verses in their full context.

If you have more, feel free to post them :)

Whoever wrote the original Talmud really set off a shitstorm for thousands of years afterwards. Now that's what I call leaving behind a legacy. When doing one thing can cause huge ripples that last thousands of years causing wars and major conflict, to this day.

At 12/25/05 03:36 AM, BigBlueBalls wrote: Whoever wrote the original Talmud really set off a shitstorm for thousands of years afterwards. Now that's what I call leaving behind a legacy. When doing one thing can cause huge ripples that last thousands of years causing wars and major conflict, to this day.

the talmud causes war? please explain. in your explanation please remeber the talmud was meant to be studied byjewish scholars

First of all, you just quoted a small part of the verse, in which made it easy for you to take it out of context. Secondly, the Old Testament was written for the Jews. Third, when Jesus came and died on the cross, He replaced all of the Old Testament rules such as animal sacrifices and going to the tabernacle(the church replaced the tabernacle). Fourth, when it comes to that verse, it is better used in the context of a war, not a personal vendetta, or grudge, or even and extreme hatred for someone large enough to want them dead.

At 12/22/05 09:52 PM, Elfer wrote: Yes, kill people of other faiths, and no, don't learn about their beliefs or culture.

You know what? Let's just make a whole danm topic called "Let's find something else to bash Christianity about"

At 12/22/05 09:52 PM, Elfer wrote: For lazy people:

12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

yea i dont wanna read that id rather just kill, its much easier

The general way of answering this little conundrum is this:
the bibles was writtin by man, and thus will have fault. Whether there is a god (by your definition) or not, those things created by man will be always be flawed.
So I'm basicly saying that religion in general is flawed, live with it.

At 12/26/05 11:48 PM, Captn_Obvious wrote: The general way of answering this little conundrum is this:
the bibles was writtin by man, and thus will have fault. Whether there is a god (by your definition) or not, those things created by man will be always be flawed.

I heven't been able to find any flaws in the Bible as of yet, and no one has brought any to my attention that I cannot refute. If you or anyone thinks that they have found any, please bring them/it to my attention and I will do by best to explain it.

Yes the Bible was written by man, but with divine intervention, God knew what was going into the Bible and if any of it was flawed He could have put a stop to it or change it, it would be well within His power. I personally don't believe that the Bible is flawed.

So I'm basicly saying that religion in general is flawed, live with it.

All religions may be flawed, but the concept is not. The only flaws that there may be in an otherwise perfect religion are due to the people who practice it and the rules and regulations that were/are instituted by those people.

At 12/27/05 12:26 AM, thebanlegion wrote:

At 12/26/05 11:48 PM, Captn_Obvious wrote: The general way of answering this little conundrum is this:
the bibles was writtin by man, and thus will have fault. Whether there is a god (by your definition) or not, those things created by man will be always be flawed.

I heven't been able to find any flaws in the Bible as of yet, and no one has brought any to my attention that I cannot refute. If you or anyone thinks that they have found any, please bring them/it to my attention and I will do by best to explain it.

How about this... The bible said there was a flood that covered the entire world... I can name many many instances that prove this wrong... A- There are plants tat would have completly died out... B- Certain animals can only be found in specific parts of the world ( Kangaroos) There are many more instances of flaw with the flood, but its too late for me to think of em...

At 12/27/05 12:30 AM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

How about this... The bible said there was a flood that covered the entire world... I can name many many instances that prove this wrong... A- There are plants tat would have completly died out... B- Certain animals can only be found in specific parts of the world ( Kangaroos) There are many more instances of flaw with the flood, but its too late for me to think of em...

I was hoping someone would bring this up. Though this is a very complicated subject, I will try to simplify it for any perspective readers.

I agree, I personally do not believe that the flood covered the entire earth as we think of
it. At the time of the flood the human race was still relitavely new and the people of the time had not yet spread to inhabit the entire world. So the entire world, as it appears in the Bible, could have meant only the area that humans inhabited, which probably did not extend outside of Mesopotamia. As indication, the word "world" translates a bit differentely, as it turns out the word "world" could, in that part of Bible, mean; the whole universe, the whole world, the whole of humanity, or a portion of the earth. Though I cannot give you specific quotes or scripture verses, I can tell you that there is some indication that the last defonition on the above list applies to the "flood".

There is a lot more on the topic, so if your not convinced and you have a specific question I will try my best to answer it for you.

At 12/27/05 01:02 AM, thebanlegion wrote:

At 12/27/05 12:30 AM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

I was hoping someone would bring this up. Though this is a very complicated subject, I will try to simplify it for any perspective readers.

I agree, I personally do not believe that the flood covered the entire earth as we think of
it. At the time of the flood the human race was still relitavely new and the people of the time had not yet spread to inhabit the entire world. So the entire world, as it appears in the Bible, could have meant only the area that humans inhabited, which probably did not extend outside of Mesopotamia. As indication, the word "world" translates a bit differentely, as it turns out the word "world" could, in that part of Bible, mean; the whole universe, the whole world, the whole of humanity, or a portion of the earth. Though I cannot give you specific quotes or scripture verses, I can tell you that there is some indication that the last defonition on the above list applies to the "flood".

Well I believe that it specifically says that water covered the face of the earth in those scriptures, but I could very well be wrong.. A fooding of the tigres and euphrates is possible... and that would explain the accounts of the flood.

There is a lot more on the topic, so if your not convinced and you have a specific question I will try my best to answer it for you.

Another question I had about the flood, and this one is less scientific and more philosophical than the last, is why did God cause the flood to begin with.. I believe the reason the bible gives is that God had came to regret his creation, but if this was the case God should have known before hand that he would some day need to flod the earth,,,, So it dosen't make much sense.

At 12/27/05 09:01 PM, Tal-con wrote:

At 12/27/05 08:34 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

Perhaps he did? It's not like he made a mistake in the way he handled his people's wickedness.

Why create people he knew he would need destroyed later?

At 12/27/05 09:39 PM, Tal-con wrote:

Perhaps to demonstrate the lengths God will go to to smite the wicked? The book of Revelation does predict apocalypse, after all.

He dosen't really need to deomnstarte it.. He could have given man an inborn knowledge of it.

At 12/27/05 12:30 AM, TheMartyr18 wrote: How about this... The bible said there was a flood that covered the entire world... I can name many many instances that prove this wrong... A- There are plants tat would have completly died out... B- Certain animals can only be found in specific parts of the world ( Kangaroos) There are many more instances of flaw with the flood, but its too late for me to think of em...

you dont know your bible. it says the animals came to noah, not the noah went to the animals. one miracle leads to the next.