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This discussion has really wandered away from anything that could be considered science

Its finite. There is more than one universe.

At 12/24/05 03:05 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Its finite. There is more than one universe.

We cannot know or prove that. It is only theorized.

And anyway, even if that is so, it is not in our reality so we cant really say that. For our reality, our universe is infinite.

Let's try to get all on the same page.

What are we defining as the universe?

I'm going to say the universe is every particle of matter and energy that originated from the big bang unless someone has a better definition.

From that, at the first instant, the universe was finite to a degree that there were no spatial dimentions or time, after that the universe exploded outward... still finite.

After a great deal of time, the bits and pieces of the explosion are still shooting outward, and the pieces that have made it the farthest away, I would say constitute the boundaries of the finite universe. Which means that the universe is something like 15 billion light years in radius, 30 billion light years in diameter.

In general, the universe is usually defined as the entire collection of galaxies, the total summation of all energies. Like I hypothesized earlier, I believe that there was a big bang for every galaxy formed. I also feel that there are big bangs within and outside of what we collectively know. It would fit in with the entire idea that nature is by itself self-repeating in a fractal-like pattern.

its a sad prospect but like every thing. the universe isprobally finite and dying like every 1 else.
but who can say that there may not be something in witch the universe is in. like a metaverse
and that could contain many universes. and maybe there may be many metaverses contained in a incomprehendably large uber verse

My two "cents" is that if the universe is expanding as we believe it is, the universe aint quite infinite as there has to be a limit. And really, we dont know for sure since we aint exactly have been very far out of our own galaxy eh.

We can see farther than we can go, and we can see quite far.

At 12/24/05 05:26 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: We can see farther than we can go, and we can see quite far.

I thought it was the other way round - we can only see as far as (the speed of light) x (the age of the universe), but we could theoretically go beyond this.

I think that the universe that we know is just another floating body in something bigger. Maybe once we reach the edge of our massive universe, we can traverse to a univers that is floating alongside ours. So what does our univers float in? If you believe in religion then maybe it floats in a space between heaven and hell. Maybe there is another larger univers that contains our smaller ones. Maybe we are little microbes who live inside a sentien being body, like the bacteria and cells that live in ours.

At 12/24/05 03:33 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote:

From that, at the first instant, the universe was finite to a degree that there were no spatial dimentions or time, after that the universe exploded outward... still finite.

After a great deal of time, the bits and pieces of the explosion are still shooting outward, and the pieces that have made it the farthest away, I would say constitute the boundaries of the finite universe. Which means that the universe is something like 15 billion light years in radius, 30 billion light years in diameter.

In this theory, what happens when the universe stops expanding? A theory is that it will contract into a wad of energy and mass and have another bing bang, thus beginning the universe again and the universe will subsequently expand and contract for either eternity or until matter is slowly destroyed more and more and nothing will exist.

At 12/24/05 03:31 PM, Lucied5 wrote: In this theory, what happens when the universe stops expanding? A theory is that it will contract into a wad of energy and mass and have another bing bang, thus beginning the universe again and the universe will subsequently expand and contract for either eternity or until matter is slowly destroyed more and more and nothing will exist.

No, the current belief is that the universe does not have the required conditions to reverse it's expansion. The expansion is accelerating and will eventually result in an ice death.

Well there are many theories that say there are many universes that have not experienced the big bang and. The worl is bigger than universe. The universe i think is infinite i just dont bieleve in quantum mechanics

At 12/24/05 03:33 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: What are we defining as the universe?

I'm going to say the universe is every particle of matter and energy that originated from the big bang unless someone has a better definition.

There's no doubt that the universe is finite if you use that definition for universe. A definition for universe the way I meant it is hard to give, but maybe 'everywhere particles are able to exist' covers it. I'd rather use the term 'visible universe' for the observable matter that originated from the Big Bang. I was wondering what's outside the visible universe. Possibilities:

1) The universe is finite. When you theoritically cross the border of the visible universe you either hit a 'limit' (you're repelled, or you cease to exist), or you eventually end up in your old location.

2) The universe is infinite. You enter an empty space after you cross the border of the visible universe and you can travel ahead of the Big Bang's particles without any further restraints. Another possibility is that more matter originated from the Big Bang than we can observe, and you'll find more matter if you travel outside the visible universe.
Or, like people suggested before, there were other Big Bangs which also means that you'll come across more matter if you keep on traveling. Since all these independent 'visible universes' expand they'll eventually overlap each other and the amount of matter in our visible universe will start increasing.

Or maybe there are even more dimensions in which other 'visible universes' exist which we can never observe or enter (or maybe we can somehow using technology not yet discovered). We'll never know, and one can doubt that mankind will ever know, but it's more of a philosophical than a scientific question I guess. I think it's fun to hear how other people think about it.

At 12/25/05 11:09 PM, Sincityrocksdahouse wrote: i just dont bieleve in quantum mechanics

Heh, I think it's the best theory available to explain or predict particle behaviour. If you have a better working model ready then you might be up for a Nobel prize.

Its finite. There is more than one universe.

universe means 1 so by definition ther cant be more than 1. and it cant be finite or end at the limits of our vision because what would be beyond it?

it is infinite, yet still expanding, yes sounds like a paradox, but its just the actual concept of infinity that is impossible to grasp.

if you really think about it, forever, infinity, never ending, it messes with your mind. but the universe does strech forever, it consists mainly of nothing tho, so the nothingness never ends.

do u think that an infinite # of big bangs occured, therefore every possible outcome for our galaxy has happened therefore there are an infinite # of "me's" typing this same question?

bbs needed?

At 12/26/05 11:50 AM, t3hjack wrote: do u think that an infinite # of big bangs occured, therefore every possible outcome for our galaxy has happened therefore there are an infinite # of "me's" typing this same question?

its highly possible, it depends on the amount of matter in our universe. it is suspected that the vast majority of matter is dark, meaning that we cant see or detect it as of yet. this is because the universe should be expanding much quicker if the only matter in it was what we could see. if the amount of dark matter is above a critical amount then at some stage the universe will stop expanding and begin to contract, "The Big Crunch". if this were to happen then the possibility that we are in one of an infinite number of cycles the universe has gone through would be quite high

do think that time is directly related to the speed of light and that the ability to supass that speed, however unlikly, would allow us to travel back in time?

At 12/26/05 12:03 PM, t3hjack wrote: do think that time is directly related to the speed of light and that the ability to supass that speed, however unlikly, would allow us to travel back in time?

time is relative, its not really a fixed measurement. yes it is relative to the speed of light, the faster you are moving the slower time appears to go.

so theoretically speaking if we were able to travel at exreemly high speeds it would be possible to travel forwards in time. if you were traveling close to the speed of light for what appeared to be a year for you, several decades may have passed for those on earth, so techincally you would have gone forwards in time. but as for going back in time, im not sure that it would be possible, maby if you could go faster than light and then turn back on yourself so to speak u mite. but i think the concept of going forwards in time is much more likely than going back

yeah they did a project where they had two extremely accurate clocks and put one on jet that flew around the world and when it returned the jet clock was a few nanoseconds slower so moving faster slows time, even if just in small incriments. thats a tough one to wrap ur head around

At 12/26/05 12:13 PM, t3hjack wrote: yeah they did a project where they had two extremely accurate clocks and put one on jet that flew around the world and when it returned the jet clock was a few nanoseconds slower so moving faster slows time, even if just in small incriments. thats a tough one to wrap ur head around

yea, it is a bit mind messing, but doin about it in uni is so interesting, i love it. i duno how ur school choices and stuff work in america but are you taking physics for your majour or whatever use call it?

im only in tenth grade an so ill be taking physics next year, but i read a book on this kinda stuff a while ago, its all pretty interesting. how about u in ireland?

Im finished school now, done my A-levels last year, which i think is like the same as first year in college in america, and now im at university studying physcs, add my hotmail to ur msn if u hav any questions about it, id be glad to help out

hahaha thanks

loads of your theories lack ecological validity, or it cant be proven. for example the big bang theory is backed up by the background radiation that was discovered twenty years ago. i want to see more evidence to back up your ideas.

can u be more specific as to what u dont understand etc.?

At 12/22/05 10:50 AM, lapis wrote:

Is the universe limited to what we can observe or is it infinite?

Not read the rest of the thread, but:

No, it's not infinite, but it's a moot point as we'll never reach an "edge" per se.

from my understanding its constantly expnading at an enormous rate. consider;
it started out smaller than a quark, a lot smaller. at 10^-43 seconds of its existance it was about the size of a marble, at around a second it was larger than you can possibly fathom. at it constantly grows by increasingly greater amounts. think of a sequai. when it first starts out its circumfrence grows about an inch a year. but the really old ones grow over 60 feet a year because that one inch over its alredy large circumfrence amounts to a lot. so while it may not be really infinite for our purposes it might as well be