Forum Topic: Is War Ever Moral?

(1,259 views • 95 replies)

This topic is 4 pages long. [ 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 ]

<< < > >>
Shouting

H-Dawg

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 12/31/05 11:56 AM

H-Dawg FAB LEVEL 16

Sign-Up: 12/04/00

Posts: 181

At 12/28/05 10:30 PM, jlwelch wrote: You are forgetting a major flaw in your argument. The Bible also tells of the Wall of Jericho and how God commanded Joshua to kill EVERYONE inside the walls of the promised land.

http://www.christian../q-abr/abr-a011.html



http://biblia.com/jesusbible/joshua3d.htm

It is simply not logical to say "All war is immoral" or "All war is ..." because in some cases it is and in others it is not.

Maybe the Christian god is just a way that certain powerful people justify their own cause beyond question, or "divinely authorize" themselves to commit war. God acts as a kind of heavenly surplus value put in trust for those killed fighting those very earthly wars. God doesn't stand as an argument for just war. The bible is contradictory on this point: there is a commandment not to kill, but then there are divine exceptions to God's own rules, as you pointed out. Not only that, but the supreme example of morality given in the bible, which is the story of Abraham and Isaac in which Abraham is going to kill his son for God before the angel intervenes at the last moment, is perverse in the extreme. The person who, according to him, was told by "God" to kill his own son, Jihad style--knife to the throat, but then was ordered not to by those same voices in his head, is supposedly the same person who goes back to his village and teaches them morality!! If that happened today, it would be clear the guy was insane, and by any standard of justice, should be thrown in prison for attempted murder and the key thrown away!! And you are using this same bible to justify war?! Read the book again a bit more carefully. HD out.


None

arz756

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 12/31/05 09:23 PM

arz756 LIGHT LEVEL 05

Sign-Up: 04/11/05

Posts: 318

Only if it is to survive. War was orginally created as a way for some groups of people to survive. Say one group of people didn't have a good harvest because of weather, crappy land, or whatever. People are starving and whatnot. Then another group have food. In an effort to survive it is justifiable to attack the other country. Now when it comes to recent issues, such as Terrorism and security, it is moral because as a human you have the right to defend yourself as well. Its not moral to read a book a thousand times and just because it says god wants you to spread your religion to go around and blow your self up to scare people.


None

WolvenBear

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 1/1/06 05:13 AM

WolvenBear EVIL LEVEL 09

Sign-Up: 06/07/05

Posts: 1,765

At 12/21/05 08:59 PM, H-Dawg wrote: I'll tell ya: Bush's war is against "terrorism" in general, and "terrorists" in particular. How exactly do we define "terror" or "terrorists?" Nobody can: those terms are too emotionally loaded, and don't really mean anything in the end. An old adage: one person's terrorist is another person's freedom-fighter, or even another person's legitimate state-backed soldier. Take for example the U.S. This is the only nation in the world--and this is well documented and nothing new--that has been convicted by the World Court for terrorism against another nation. That was when the U.S. went against international law and invaded Nicaragua. The war in Iraq is also against International law, by the way. Noam Chomsky has made the point in several articles and books, most recently in _Power and Terror_, that the best way for the U.S. to stop terrorism is to stop participating in it. That may seem shocking, but think about all the innocent civilians that were bombed and killed in the U.S. led wars on Afghanistan, not to mention the unfolding disaster, both for Iraqi citizens and American soldiers, in Iraq. (Forget, for a moment, that Osama Bin Laden was for years funded and armed by the U.S., as was Saddam Houssein. Those two were created by the U.S.--kinda ironic, eh?) "Al Qaeda" as a group really means very little--anyone could throw a malotov cocktail and no one would even notice, but if they call themselves a member of Al Qaeda, every God-fearing U.S. citizen freaks out, and calls for an "orange alert." Come on, lets get over it! The war on terror is just a freak show which helped George Bush, a collosal disaster as a president and an evangelical nut, get elected for a second term by scarring the U.S. public into submission. The fact that the U.S. made the collosal mistake of going to "war" over it (whatever the hell IT is) just shows that the terrorists really won--we're all so terrified we can't see that the emperor (Bush--who really is the leader of a global Empire) doesn't have any clothes on, or any brains, or heart... /H-D out.

Actually, "terror" and "terrorism" are pretty well defined terms. Terrorism is the purposeful targeting of innocent civilians or non-combatants to cause fear, and panic, destruction, and death to advance one's agenda. Sorry bud but one person's freedom fighter is NOT anothers terrorist. You're dead wrong here. Freedom fighters don't intentionally target non-combatants, innocent women and children. They don't take innocent hostages and execute them when their demands aren't met. As for Chomsky, he's another pathetic "blame America" type. You know what...We don't participate in terrorism. Gee what a surprise. "Moral equivalency" is a bullshit made up term by cowards and traitors and fools.

You toss out this idiocy such as "this is proof we have already lost", and "we made a collosial mistake", and I'm sure if I called you to state your evidence it would be something on the line of "Bush is a nazi". That's much of your post, blah blah blah. Al Qaeda took two planes into the World Trade Center, killing 3000 people. Means very little? They are the major group responsible for the deaths of our soldiers. Means very little? They bomb cities all over the world and kill untold amounts of people. Means very little? You are just parroting random talking points from hither thither and yon, without actually knowing what you're talking about. Go do five seconds of research. Type in terrorism in wikipidia. And stop spouting shit from both ends.

Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.


Shouting

H-Dawg

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 1/2/06 11:02 PM

H-Dawg FAB LEVEL 16

Sign-Up: 12/04/00

Posts: 181

At 1/1/06 05:13 AM, WolvenBear wrote:
At 12/21/05 08:59 PM, H-Dawg wrote:
Actually, "terror" and "terrorism" are pretty well defined terms. Terrorism is the purposeful targeting of innocent civilians or non-combatants to cause fear, and panic, destruction, and death to advance one's agenda. Sorry bud but one person's freedom fighter is NOT anothers terrorist. You're dead wrong here. Freedom fighters don't intentionally target non-combatants, innocent women and children. They don't take innocent hostages and execute them when their demands aren't met. As for Chomsky, he's another pathetic "blame America" type. You know what...We don't participate in terrorism. Gee what a surprise. "Moral equivalency" is a bullshit made up term by cowards and traitors and fools.

You toss out this idiocy such as "this is proof we have already lost", and "we made a collosial mistake", and I'm sure if I called you to state your evidence it would be something on the line of "Bush is a nazi". That's much of your post, blah blah blah. Al Qaeda took two planes into the World Trade Center, killing 3000 people. Means very little? They are the major group responsible for the deaths of our soldiers. Means very little? They bomb cities all over the world and kill untold amounts of people. Means very little? You are just parroting random talking points from hither thither and yon, without actually knowing what you're talking about. Go do five seconds of research. Type in terrorism in wikipidia. And stop spouting shit from both ends.

Whoa! I guess I ruffled your feathers. Good! But you're still wrong. And I think citing Wikipidia as your research source reflects badly on the strength of your, not my, research. But back to the argument... You say terror and terrorism are well defined terms? That's just not true. A good primer on Terrorism is Charles Townshend's _Terrorism_, which goes into some of its profound definitional problems. One problem is the issue of "innocents," which your deceptively simplistic definition takes forgranted as common sense. As Townsend explains, when it comes to civilians, "these may not be 'the innocent' necessarily: the attempt to transfer the notion fo 'innocent civilians' from teh international law of war to the study of terrorism has foundered on the realization that innocence is another relative, unstable property" (7). One example is the widely publicized secret prisons for terrorist suspects set up across the world, which includes the more famous examples of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, in which, in any legal sense, "innocent citizens," merely assumed by the U.S. government to be terrorist suspects, were taken prisoner and, as is now well known, often tortured--terrorized in fact--against any international law of war or the geneva convention. So, by your own definition, legally speaking, those prisons are examples of U.S. terrorism against innocent civilians. I recently saw a documentary film, called _Persons of Interest- (Icarus Films, 2004), which interviewed a number of the detainees held in American prisons under the Homeland Security provisions. And of the more than 5000 people--all immigrants or of visible minorities--detained, not one has ever been convicted of anything. Not one. So yes, Al Qaeda means very little, mostly because the U.S. government, because of their disastrous foreign policy in regards to the War on Terror and its international scare tactics, have emptied the actual facts of the 9/11 tragedy of any meaning as a justification for the War on Terror or U.S. "homeland security." And if you think the U.S. hasn't committed random acts of violence against innocent civilians, what do you call hiroshima? Or the fire-bombing of Dresden? Get off the internet and do some real research. /HD out.


Thinking

H-Dawg

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 1/3/06 02:45 PM

H-Dawg FAB LEVEL 16

Sign-Up: 12/04/00

Posts: 181

At 12/31/05 09:23 PM, arz756 wrote: Only if it is to survive. War was orginally created as a way for some groups of people to survive. Say one group of people didn't have a good harvest because of weather, crappy land, or whatever. People are starving and whatnot. Then another group have food. In an effort to survive it is justifiable to attack the other country. Now when it comes to recent issues, such as Terrorism and security, it is moral because as a human you have the right to defend yourself as well. Its not moral to read a book a thousand times and just because it says god wants you to spread your religion to go around and blow your self up to scare people.

This is a good point, I think. But it depends upon what you define as survival. For example, for the state of Israel to ensure the survival of large parts of their "homeland," they feel justified in making war on innocent civilian Palestinians, as well as Palestinian fighters and terrorists. For the Palestinian homeland and culture to survive, it seems justified that Palestinians defend themselves against Israeli aggression by any means at their disposal, particularly given the uneven balance of power in that region. So which side is waging the "just war?" Further, if a fascist state is to survive, today, it pretty much has to make war on its own people and probably eventually on most of the rest of the world. So would the fascist state be justified in fighting for its survival? Now, in the case of the U.S. war on terror, the enemy is so ambiguous ("terror" itself, whatever that is) that the war can never really end, and the "enemy," in the black-and-white, good-vs-evil world of the Bush administration, really becomes anybody who is not defined as "good," or those who basically espouse American morals and values. And the shape of those morals and values, under George W. Bush, are heavily influenced by evangelical Christian right movement and neo-capitalist and neo-liberal principles of "the good life." Anyone of another ethnic, religious, family, gender, or ideological background (i.e., most people in the world) are therefore at least under suspicion of being "evil." Because of the incredible global power of the U.S., many groups who don't want to be assimilated by the American/neo-capitalist way of life (i.e. devout non-Christian religious groups who see life as more spiritually centred than economically centred, even in regards to governmental politics) perhaps feel justified in attacking the U.S. by the means at their disposal in order to ensure their own cultural and spiritual survival in a heavily American-influenced (both economically and militarily) global order. Many Arabs, for example, tend to equate Israeli aggression against Palestinians and the violent U.S. presence in Iraq, particularly since, as it turns out, there really was no justification for the U.S. war in Iraq, nor any evidence that the U.S. government should have ever assumed that their would be any evidence. So why did they invade? Saddam was never linked to terrorism, except the terrorism he committed against his own people, including the genocide of Kurds--a genocide that was occuring even when the U.S. was backing Saddam, in fact supporting him militarily against Iran. Are any of these conflicts "justified" on the basis of survival? Again, that seems to depend ultimately on whose survival we are talking about at the time. /HD


None

H-Dawg

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 1/5/06 11:48 PM

H-Dawg FAB LEVEL 16

Sign-Up: 12/04/00

Posts: 181

Not to seem like a moral relativist, but merely ethically responsible. /HD


All times are Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5) | Current Time: 12:21 PM

<< Back

This topic is 4 pages long. [ 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 ]

<< < > >>
You need a Grounds Gold Account to post on the NG BBS! If you don't have one, click here to sign up now! It's fast, free, and easy — and opens up tons of great NG features!