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I have a question, and it is hardly original, but: is something good because god likes it, or does god like it because its good?

and here's another one: is god completely benevolent?

Excellent questions! - far better than mine =)

At 12/6/05 04:03 PM, brown_recluse wrote: I have a question, and it is hardly original, but: is something good because god likes it, or does god like it because its good?

I don't really know how to begin answering this one. I might wait to see what other people are saying before I commit myself to another of my flawed philosophical rants.

and here's another one: is god completely benevolent?

As a Christian, I believe so. I believe that suffering is usually a consequence of human evil, and when it is not, it is to prevent a greater suffering happening at a later date. It is, admittedly, hard to reconcile my beliefs with the suffering of infants, and difficult to explain why evil people are sometimes very sucessful. I believe this is explained by the existance of an afterlife.

On an intellectual level, I am a supporter of 'Modified Dualism'. I would say God is not all-benevolent, simply 'the most benevolent'. While He cannot always make the 'right' choice, He will always make the 'best' choice (so, while it would have been good for God to have killed Hitler before World War Two started, it would also have been bad, as arbitary thunderbolt-justice could not be seen as a good thing by a God who allows free-will)

Supporters of Maltheism would say 'no' - I've read one person suggest God is like a child toying with a nest of ants and a magnifying glass although I find this belief a little offensive.

At 12/6/05 04:03 PM, brown_recluse wrote: I have a question, and it is hardly original, but: is something good because god likes it, or does god like it because its good?

I think good and evil are man made concepts. All things stem from birth and death. The concept of good comes from Birth. the concept of evil comes from death.

Aztecs believed in the idea that birth and death are equal. Both are essential. Life contains the seeds of death and death contains the seeds of life. Good contains the seeds of evil etc etc. The only contant in the universe is change.

I believe that god does not regard things as good and evil. it is impartial. All that it does is govern balance. All things must be kept in perfect balance. So if somebody is evil they will be punished, not because god thinks they are evil, but because all their actions and thoughts must be kept in perfect balance.

God's very nature defies logic. So why would anyone try to apply logical questions to something that isn't logical?

So, knowing this, there can't be an answer to any of those questions.

The Idea is that God transcends logic. The entity we refer to as God, supposedly was born of nothing (or maybe everything). Since god has created the laws of our world which define our logic, he wouldn't be subject to them. Also, we don't have a perfect grasp of either logic, or the nature of existance; we could find that some of the ideas on which we base our logic to be false, or find a situation in which a being such as god could exist logically.

As far as God's benevolence, I believe that God though he would like human welfare and happiness, but doesn't want to interfere on a grand scale (anymore) for whatever reason.

At 12/6/05 05:26 PM, brown_recluse wrote:

:Since god has created the laws of our world which define our logic, he wouldn't be subject to them.

Exactly. We only know of 4 dimensions. We only have 5 definable senses. Who knows what other ways there are to experience the universe and what implications this would have on our understanding of logic and science.

God is an almighty being in heaven and jesus christ is his son (who made the earth) we are made exactly in God's image, hence we have bodies of flesh and blood and facial features and so forth. But since God is an immortal being, he does not have blood, instead it is replaced with a fluid not known to man...im not trying tomake anyone mad...this is just my beliefs and i hope you respect them as i do your beliefs.

At 12/6/05 01:58 PM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote:

This is easy easy easy for anyone with a background in mathematics and philosophy.

1) Can God make 1+1=3?

No, this sort of change would invalidate the fundamental principles of mathematics and logic, if God can make True=False, then logic is destroyed and this discussion, being based on logic, is valueless.

2) Can God make the sun green?

If he is omnipotent, yes.

3i) Can God prove His own existance?

Yes, unless someone out there has proof that the existence of god is unprovable.

3ii) Can God disprove His own existance?

not without breaking down logic. Proofs can only prove true things, not false things.

4) Can God make a heavy idea?

ideas are defined in such a way that weight does not mean anything in relationship to them. If God tried to do so it wouldn't really be an idea anymore.

5) Would God exist if no-one believed in him?

Sure, God existed before (for lack of a better word) creation.

6) Does the "God making a burrito so hot etc" argument disprove God's existance, disprove His omnipotence, or simply prove His trancendance? (un-knowable-ness)

The concept of a burrito so hot that an omnipotent being was unable to eat is inherentlly paradoxical and therefore meaningless. The question is a series of english words that seem to fit in the right order but logical analysis shows that there is no meaning in the question.

I did all these in a hurry, if you want better answers give me a few days to think on them

oh yeah, If something is good because God likes it, then good and evil are arbitrary, and can change on God's whim. for example, tomorrow God could declare wife beaters, paedophiles, rapists, murderers, and televangelists good. by that logic, those people would be saints in the eyes og God.

conversely, If God likes things because they are good then we make the assumption that there is a universal standard of good and evil that applies in like fashion to all cretures in the universe. In that sense, the law of "good" and "evil" predates god, because when he created the first things, he "saw that they were good". with this belief, we could change the context of the quote "He saw that it was good" to mean that maybe God made certain that he made things to the specification that would qualify it as being "good".

just some extra to think about.

5) Would God exist if no-one believed in him?

Sure, God existed before (for lack of a better word) creation.

Does that include the creation of time, being that time and space are intrisically connected according to Einstein. Because if that were the case, the concept of "before" couldn't exist without time.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, It just trips my mind out to think of the implausability of 'before' time. madness.

At 12/6/05 01:58 PM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote: Right, I was on the General Forum (forgive me), and saw this topic.
Basically, someone asked the question "Can God make a burrito so hot that even He cannot eat it?", then got flamed, as the General Forum is wont to do.

I decided that us Politic-Forum denizens might be able to cope with a slightly more high-brow topic than this, so I'd like to ask another set of questions, based on Logical Positivism (look at the long words I can use *proudness*)

1) Can God make 1+1=3?
Would God be able to prove something 'incorrect' to us that we can prove using our own logic?

of course

2) Can God make the sun green?
Would God be able to defy physical law, that we can 'prove' by observing it?

obviously

3i) Can God prove His own existance?

easily

Would God be able to prove to us beyond doubt that He did exist, if He so chose?

3ii) Can God disprove His own existance?

of course not dont be ridicluos

Same sort of idea, but paradoxical.

4) Can God make a heavy idea?
Would God be powerful enough to create something that makes no sense at all?

of course not

5) Would God exist if no-one believed in him?
yes

6) Does the "God making a burrito so hot etc" argument disprove God's existance, disprove His omnipotence, or simply prove His trancendance? (un-knowable-ness)

neither, you see it makes no sense that he cant eat a burrito, go has no limits and can not have limits

Obviously, none of these apply if God is not assumed to have a few defining characteristics. For the sake of this argument, God:
1) Exists in some form

blasphemy

2) Is Omnipotent (all-powerful, sorry if this is patronising)

yes

3) Is Omniscient (all-knowing)

yes

4) Is Omnipresent (everywhere)

yes:

I'm quite interested in the intellectual side of this argument - whether or not you believe in God, the questions are still relevant, but if you want to tell the world how you are an atheist here would be a better place to post your comments, as this is more about philosophy than theism\deism.

whew that was easy, im thankful you didnt go down the free will/divine pre-ordination road^_^

At 12/6/05 02:59 PM, Holo-Alf wrote:

I see no intellectual side. I mean, that guy was asking if God could turn Himself into a burrito. Surely you don't see that as an intellegint question? Besides, being able to fail is not a part of omnipotence, therefore his question is totally irrelevant.

I think the idea was to get an intelligent debate about god from a naive post about burritos. Surely that was the point of starting a new thread, rather than posting on the original.

You are probably right about this thread. I was refering to the thread that this thread came from. I would prefer that an intelligent debate begin with intelligent question or statement.

I'm personally looking at this topic as a means to discuss what god is and what it can do from different perspectives and utilising religion, philosphy etc rather than an attempt to disprove god or it's abilities.

Interesting point of view... Others will have no interest in another perspective on philosophy and such.

PS Apologise for refering to god as an "it" to anybody who is religious, I just don't believe god is masculine.

Your use of the word it brings God down to the level of an idol. It implies He is not a being that we could come in contact with. That is simply not true. Now this could go into a philosophic debate that could last for pages on in... but why not just use the facts.
Jesus used the word 'pat-ayr' in Matthew 28:19 in referring to God, His Father.
It is self evident that this word is masculine because means a father/parent.
What you might be getting at is that God is spirit, and that is true. But in the Bible He is described as masculine. But of course that is assuming we are talking about the God of the Bible... and if not we need to get alittle more specific. :p

But in the Bible He is described as masculine. But of course that is assuming we are talking about the God of the Bible... and if not we need to get alittle more specific. :p

Well, I am talking about the god in the Bible but I'm also talking about the god in every other religion ever conceived. I believe that all interprtations of some higher force, whether the god of the bible, the concept of Brahman in Hinduism, the 'Dao' in taoism and the 'energy' refered to in philosphies such as buddhism, are in fact the same enterty. To put a gender on such a being seems absurd to me. God has no need to reproduce, therefore it has no need for a gender. I don't refer to it as an 'it' out of disrespect, meerly as an expression of my desire to not put a label on it as best I can.

At 12/6/05 06:45 PM, Holo-Alf wrote:

5) Would God exist if no-one believed in him?

Sure, God existed before (for lack of a better word) creation.

Does that include the creation of time, being that time and space are intrisically connected according to Einstein. Because if that were the case, the concept of "before" couldn't exist without time.

if you look at the little comment I wrote in parenthesis you'll see that I am aware of this.

if you look at the little comment I wrote in parenthesis you'll see that I am aware of this.

That's the beauty of the truth. No word exist to describe it accurately because nobody knows what it is.

It's not that no one knows the word, it's just that no word is relevant, 'before' requires the concept of time, and since time was created there is no before, but this does not disprove the possibility of existence independent of time. When one thinks in this way it really shows the magnificence of God, and really shows how insignificant we are to him. If god exists independently of time, no action we can take will affect God, God can only affect us. I don't mean that strictly literally, but it's like a video game, the person at the controls can affect anything in the game, but the game cannot control anything outside of the game.

I agree entirely, except for the bit about god seeing us as insignificant. You say it's like a videogame. Sure, all the coding is there without mario, but if you take him out the game becomes a bit pointless and not very much fun. I think god values every atom in the universe as much as each other, and I don't think god has the need to value itself at all.

We are insignificant in comparison to God. If God doesn't care about us, there is nothing we can do to change that, and the reverse is true as well.

answers:

1) god can make 1+1=3 because he can go into some politician's head and make him say "i think we should change our number system around so that it goes 1,3,2,5,4, etc" then go into other people's heads and make them vote yes to it. in fact god probably made you write these questions so he can make us answer the way he wants us to.

2)god can make us see any color he wants us to. he decided that he wants us to see blood red, pure light white and our skin white, black, brown or whatever color it is. he can made the next generation all have different color filtering membrane things

3)he can mass murder everyone at the same time except for random people and they could never in the life of them prove that there was some disease or something that killed them all

4)god can make anything he feelings like. as i stated in answer 1, god can make me write questions that make no sense like "what is the square pi of a cow's squral?"

5)no, he wouldn't exist because no one believes him and would believe in something else like shila, the hindu god of ice or something like that

6)it doesn't disprove his existance, proves his omnipotence, and proves his trancendance

thats my answers and they are probably effected by the fact i am religious (not hardcore religous, just go to church just about every sunday and almsot fall a sleep during it. oh by the way, im presbaterian, so i think almost like a catholic but not).

At 12/6/05 08:07 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: We are insignificant in comparison to God. If God doesn't care about us, there is nothing we can do to change that, and the reverse is true as well.

Hmm, but by saying that you are comparing. We are insignificant to god? In god's perception or our own? I don't believe god compares these things. I think god see's all things, no matter how small, ugly etc, as significant. I believe all things are equal and god is all things. If god doesn't care about us there is nothing we can do about it and if we don't care about god there is nothing it can do about it, you're right. Everything just is. Accept it and it will accept you.

In my perception, I am as insignificant and as significant as everything else, including god, which is all things, regardless of their significance.

thats my answers and they are probably effected by the fact i am religious (not hardcore religous, just go to church just about every sunday and almsot fall a sleep during it. oh by the way, im presbaterian, so i think almost like a catholic but not).

Going to church doesn't make you religious. Having faith makes you religious. if you're falling asleep in church, it's time to switch churches or faiths.

At 12/6/05 01:58 PM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote: 1) Can God make 1+1=3?
Would God be able to prove something 'incorrect' to us that we can prove using our own logic?

Yes

2) Can God make the sun green?
Would God be able to defy physical law, that we can 'prove' by observing it?

Yes

3i) Can God prove His own existance?
Would God be able to prove to us beyond doubt that He did exist, if He so chose?

Yes

3ii) Can God disprove His own existance?
Same sort of idea, but paradoxical.

If he wanted to, yes.

4) Can God make a heavy idea?
Would God be powerful enough to create something that makes no sense at all?

Yes: since humans can create something that makes no sense at all (ie anarcho-socialism), certainly God can.

5) Would God exist if no-one believed in him?

Yes

6) Does the "God making a burrito so hot etc" argument disprove God's existance, disprove His omnipotence, or simply prove His trancendance? (un-knowable-ness)

This is by far the most thought-provoking question, but just because the human mind can recognize and explain the paradox doesn't mean that God sees one. So I think I'll go with the latter.

Obviously, none of these apply if God is not assumed to have a few defining characteristics. For the sake of this argument, God:
1) Exists in some form
2) Is Omnipotent (all-powerful, sorry if this is patronising)
3) Is Omniscient (all-knowing)
4) Is Omnipresent (everywhere)

If we assume these things, than my answers are the only correct answers.

Firstly, there is no way to know if god exists, let alone know the nature of the aforementioned diety. But for the sake of argument, I propose some additional questions here:

What gave us the idea the god is omnipotent to begin with?

How did god come into being? Was he always there or did he spontaniusly self-manifest?

Can god be destroyed?

Assuming that god can be destroyed, can someone/something else transform into god?

Just a few more unanswerable questions for the discussion.

At 12/6/05 04:13 PM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote: Supporters of Maltheism would say 'no' - I've read one person suggest God is like a child toying with a nest of ants and a magnifying glass although I find this belief a little offensive.

Do you find such a statement offensive because you've seen god's nature personally and know that he is incapable of such a thing (in this case, such a statement would be character assassination)? Or are you offended because this statement runs counter to all that you were taught to believe about god (making the statement a valid oppinion)?

I used to get offended by such things when I was a christian, but I was blind to the validity of them until I left the church. Based on the state of the world we live in today (assuming god controls it), this statement may have a lot of truth in it...

What gave us the idea the god is omnipotent to begin with?

I assume the hope that god will help us if we are in need. A god would have to be very powerful to control all the things that cause humans suffering, and this power probably exculated into the concept of omnipotence.

How did god come into being? Was he always there or did he spontaniusly self-manifest?

It is infinite

Can god be destroyed?

No. It changes, but it can not be added to or taken away from. It is constant, it just changes.

Assuming that god can be destroyed, can someone/something else transform into god?

I don't think god has a form. But perhaps there is a way to reach a mental state where you are at one with it, and then your perception of reality would be as god

These are my opinions/beliefs just for the record. I don't want anybody to think I think I have all the answers and my perspective is subject to change if someone can convince me otherwise.

I think you need to go read a math book, then read the bible a few times, and then try the reading all the other major holy books... and then conclude that

IF GOD EXSISTS, he could do whatever the hell he wants to do.

At 12/6/05 04:03 PM, brown_recluse wrote: I have a question, and it is hardly original, but: is something good because god likes it, or does god like it because its good?

Both? I do not think that there is truth beyond His existence. He is ultimate; you can not good, evil, or anything in a void.

and here's another one: is god completely benevolent?

Yes. But whether or not you agree, depends on your definition of "good."

At 12/7/05 05:22 PM, Holo-Alf wrote:
I assume the hope that god will help us if we are in need. A god would have to be very powerful to control all the things that cause humans suffering, and this power probably exculated into the concept of omnipotence.

But even very powerful forces are finite in what they can accomplish. Besides, who said god "controls all things?" Perhaps god created the base elements of the universe and allowed chance to take over? The point is we don't know just how much power god has (or doesn't have, for that matter).

No. It changes, but it can not be added to or taken away from. It is constant, it just changes.

How do constants change? That goes against the very of idea of a constant.

I don't think god has a form. But perhaps there is a way to reach a mental state where you are at one with it, and then your perception of reality would be as god

I've heard this from the Hindus and Taoists before; what I'm asking is "can the current individual/entity/force we know as being god be finite enough that someone/something else can exploit that finite nature and take the place of god?"

These are my opinions/beliefs just for the record. I don't want anybody to think I think I have all the answers and my perspective is subject to change if someone can convince me otherwise.

Opinion noted...

Heh...good post. I'll bite and give my answers.

1) Can God make 1+1=3?
Would God be able to prove something 'incorrect' to us that we can prove using our own logic?

Yes. The premise that 1+1 must equal 2 uses the word "must" in an epistemic reading, meaning that as we as speakers of language X say and understand it, "must" in this case means that it is written into the fabric of the universe that one and one equals two. As God wrote the fabric of the universe, He can change them at will.

2) Can God make the sun green?
Would God be able to defy physical law, that we can 'prove' by observing it?

Again, yes. In the realm God, physical existance isn't the end-all form of existance. There are higher forms which do not depend on physical bodies. Physical law can thus be screwed with in any way, shape, or form, as God wills.

3i) Can God prove His own existance?
Would God be able to prove to us beyond doubt that He did exist, if He so chose?

Yep. The only reason humans doubt His existance is that He gave us free will. Without that boon of free will, we are thus required to believe in His existance. And thus He is proven, because what/who else could remove the sense of free will from 6 billion people at once?

3ii) Can God disprove His own existance?
Same sort of idea, but paradoxical.

No. His very existance doesn't allow for this scenario. He can, however, make all forms of life believe that He doesn't exist.

4) Can God make a heavy idea?
Would God be powerful enough to create something that makes no sense at all?

It would make sense to Him, but not to the rest of us.

5) Would God exist if no-one believed in him?

Yes. Free will allows us to choose, but free will is a gift from God. If no one believed, it's simply people exercising their free will. We can disbelieve because we are allowed to.

6) Does the "God making a burrito so hot etc" argument disprove God's existance, disprove His omnipotence, or simply prove His trancendance? (un-knowable-ness)

Proves His trancendence.

I do not see the point of these silly threads but.......

At 12/6/05 01:58 PM, x_Toadenalin_x wrote:
1) Can God make 1+1=3?
Would God be able to prove something 'incorrect' to us that we can prove using our own logic?

We'll I've heard 2+2=3 in small enough quanitys of 2 or some crap like that, so yeah

2) Can God make the sun green?
Would God be able to defy physical law, that we can 'prove' by observing it?

Given all the pyschics defining things hes done (make a bush burn without the bush burning) I'd have to say yes

3i) Can God prove His own existance?
Would God be able to prove to us beyond doubt that He did exist, if He so chose?

Obviously he would. He could just appear and, hi I'm god, answear every question ever, and do stuff that shows he is indeed God. But that would completly destroy the concept of faith.

3ii) Can God disprove His own existance?
Same sort of idea, but paradoxical.

I guess he could make people believe he doesn't exist.... but wtf?

4) Can God make a heavy idea?
Would God be powerful enough to create something that makes no sense at all?

probably. Who cares?

5) Would God exist if no-one believed in him?

Well the athiests say we created God, but I say he obviously would

6) Does the "God making a burrito so hot etc" argument disprove God's existance, disprove His omnipotence, or simply prove His trancendance? (un-knowable-ness)

It proves he is differnt from us, has a different body and existence from us, and that questions like that are stupid