Abortion

[Bob69187]

I Could not beleve that no one had posted something on this nice and controversial topic. I Say for Pro-Life, but not quite as far as the idiots bombing clinics.

[MarijuanaClock]

It's not my place to say. It's the womens choice, whatever moral or ethical implications she will face are no concern of mine. She and she alone will have to deal with it. Whatever it may be.

[MonkeyMan-Inc]

I belive it is a womens choice but for all of thoughs hardcore christians out there that belive abortion is (evil) What if the women was rapped????

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

Indeed. Womens choice. The thing that bothers me about pro life people, aside from the few obvious lunatics in that group, is that the idea limits human rights whether or not the woman in question has the same values. Pro choice allows for a woman to do as she pleases if that is in fact what she wants and never forces its way on anyone. You don’t want one, that’s cool but don’t tell everyone else that they can’t because you don’t believe in it.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/3/02 12:10 AM, Spike_J_Wolfwood wrote:

:Pro choice allows for a woman to do as she pleases if that is in fact what she wants and never forces its way on anyone. You don’t want one, that’s cool but don’t tell everyone else that they can’t because you don’t believe in it.

I concure. Well said.

[Verg]

Hmmm....let me think....
Let's a woman do what she wants?
I guess she wanted to spread her legs too.
Very interesting.
Actions without consequences.
Sounds very pathalogical to me.
But hek, what the hell do I know anyways?
It's just my opinion.

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

At 12/3/02 01:29 AM, Verg wrote: Hmmm....let me think....
Let's a woman do what she wants?
I guess she wanted to spread her legs too.
Very interesting.
Actions without consequences.
Sounds very pathalogical to me.
But hek, what the hell do I know anyways?
It's just my opinion.

That it is, yet it doesn’t account for accidental or unwanted pregnancy. Lets say that the birth control methods fail or there is a rape. Pregnancy in not a necessary consequence to sex. This is not the middle ages and not everyone feels that they have sinned for not having sex strictly for reproduction. If it were not for the right to choose then at 18 I would have had a wife, a child, no education, and no way to support myself or those who would depend on me. We were responsible, condom and birth-control pills, one failed and then the next. If it were up to pro-life people my life, my girl friends, and that child’s would have almost certainly been ruined.

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

Again, that's just what worked for me.

[Verg]

I do not think that sex is a sin.
That is not where I was going with it.
There are consequences to actions.
I guess it's like russian roulette.
You don't know witch bullet is in which chamber.
It's a matter of chance.
People gamble.
They win AND they lose.
You take enough risks and eventualy it catches up with you.
I guess it's the same for the unborn child.
The only difference, is that it did not have a choice
to gamble.
I'm no bible thumper.
It has nothing to do with god.
It's a question of morality and ethics.
It is unjust.
I don't think it means people who get abortions go to hell, nor should they be punished.
The weight of remorse and regret that plages the woman
for the rest of her life.
I would not wish that on anyone.

[MarijuanaClock]

Who gives a damn?

Who are you to force your morals onto others? In the end do you have to deal with there mistakes? Who are you to say whats right? Your morals are societies morals?

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

Well, in the end I think that somewhere in all of this me, verg, and MarijuanaClock agree on some things but I’m way to drunk to figure out what exactly. I say cheers to you gentlemen and lets rest assured in our mutual respect for each other, for I would not waste time arguing with someone who I did not respect.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/3/02 02:49 AM, Spike_J_Wolfwood wrote: Well, in the end I think that somewhere in all of this me, verg, and MarijuanaClock agree on some things but I’m way to drunk to figure out what exactly. I say cheers to you gentlemen and lets rest assured in our mutual respect for each other, for I would not waste time arguing with someone who I did not respect.

Sounds good, cheers.

[RandomFreak]

I'm not in favor of abortion but it should be kept legal. This is because we know from the past that making it illegal doesn't stop women from doing it, all that does is rob them of the chance to have it done safely and puts them at unnecessary risk.

[Slizor]

I guess it's the same for the unborn child.
The only difference, is that it did not have a choice
to gamble.

Why should we accord a foetus the same rights as a fully-grown human? Does it have the same value as a fully-grown human? What gives a human value? Is it sentiency? Something which a foetus lacks. If it is not sentiency, what is it? What is it that we possess, and animals do not?

[swayside]

At 12/3/02 02:16 AM, MarijuanaClock wrote: Who are you to force your morals onto others? In the end do you have to deal with there mistakes? Who are you to say whats right? Your morals are societies morals?

would you have been just as apathic during ww2? millions were slaughtered because they were jews. they had no choice as to wether or not they wanted to be jews. it wasn't their doing. abortion kills not because the babies are jews, the only reason they are aborted is because they exist, hitler didn't want jews to exist either. were we right to force our american morals against genocide on germany? the holocost wasn't directy affecting america so did we have a right to break up the concentration camps? abourtion is indiscrininate to race and gender and number. that makes abortion more evil than hitler.

[Slizor]

would you have been just as apathic during ww2?

There was little public knowledge about the Holocaust during WW2.

millions were slaughtered because they were jews. they had no choice as to wether or not they wanted to be jews.

Actually you do have a choice to be a jew, you don't have a choice to look like a sterotypical jew.

were we right to force our american morals against genocide on germany?

You didn't. To try and say that WW2 was about the Holocaust is the work of a poor historian.

the holocost wasn't directy affecting america so did we have a right to break up the concentration camps?

That was mostly done by the Russians.

abourtion is indiscrininate to race and gender and number. that makes abortion more evil than hitler.

Do you know what it is discriminate against? Sentiency. Can you justify killing an ant? Most people can, and do, they argue the ant does not feel it, it is not aware, it is not sentient. The same is true with a foetus up to a certain stage. It is not sentient, so therefore does not deserve the rights accorded to sentient beings(which is the whole basis of ethics and moral philosophy.)

[Commander-K25]

At 12/3/02 01:45 AM, Spike_J_Wolfwood wrote:

At 12/3/02 01:29 AM, Verg wrote: Hmmm....let me think....
Let's a woman do what she wants?
I guess she wanted to spread her legs too.
Very interesting.
Actions without consequences.
Sounds very pathalogical to me.
But hek, what the hell do I know anyways?
It's just my opinion.

That it is, yet it doesn’t account for accidental or unwanted pregnancy. Lets say that the birth control methods fail or there is a rape. Pregnancy in not a necessary consequence to sex. This is not the middle ages and not everyone feels that they have sinned for not having sex strictly for reproduction. If it were not for the right to choose then at 18 I would have had a wife, a child, no education, and no way to support myself or those who would depend on me. We were responsible, condom and birth-control pills, one failed and then the next. If it were up to pro-life people my life, my girl friends, and that child’s would have almost certainly been ruined.

So they might have had to accept the consequences of their actions? Oh, the horror! The oppression! If you don't know that sex produces babies and contraception is not failproof then you shouldn't do it. There are consequences to a person's actions. If you play Russian Roulette but wear a bulletproof vest but you lose and it, by chance, penetrates the vest, can you say later "It's not fair! I wore a vest! How was I supposed to know that it might fail! It was just a fun game."

And then you go get a docter to slash your baby's throat.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/3/02 05:50 PM, Slizor wrote:

would you have been just as apathic during ww2?

There was little public knowledge about the Holocaust during WW2.

millions were slaughtered because they were jews. they had no choice as to wether or not they wanted to be jews.

Actually you do have a choice to be a jew, you don't have a choice to look like a sterotypical jew.

were we right to force our american morals against genocide on germany?

Your comparing genocide, the complete destruction of a race, to removal of a grouping of cells that do not think or even resemble a humanbeing.

Lastly America didn't "force american morals against genocide in germany." You see America was isolationist, you knew you just didn't care. In fact you weren't even prepared to go to war until hitler declared war on America first. Lastly America knew, in fact America turned away jewish refugees. Next time use a example that actualy fits ok?

[House-Of-Leaves]

If you want, I can list all sort of information about when a baby's heart begins to beat, when the brain functions, lungs, the like. You can count ten toes at the age of less than 10 weeks inside the womb.

Me? I'm pro-life when it comes to myself. Pro-choice when it comes to everyone else. I'm not here to judge others, and there's only One that can judge me. I can't tell any woman what to do with her body. The methods are awful, barbaric, especially in the last two trimesters, but still...

If abortion was illegal? We'd be going back in time, to back-alley abortions and women dying because they didn't have the right to do what they want. Sure, we can save the life of an unborn child...but at what cost?

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/4/02 03:12 AM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:
Me? I'm pro-life when it comes to myself. Pro-choice when it comes to everyone else. I'm not here to judge others, and there's only One that can judge me. I can't tell any woman what to do with her body. The methods are awful, barbaric, especially in the last two trimesters, but still...

Agreed, I am pro-life, but the fact still remains it's the woman's body. At the end of the day she will have to face up to whatever moral implications there are for abortion, but she still has the right to do it though.

[Slizor]

So they might have had to accept the consequences of their actions? Oh, the horror! The oppression! If you don't know that sex produces babies and contraception is not failproof then you shouldn't do it. There are consequences to a person's actions.

So we should let people with food poisoning die or let them suffer? Food poisoning is a result of eating food, it is a consequence. If you don't know that eating food can give you food poisoning you shouldn't do it.

[VisaFreak]

i think women should have the right to choose because what if some crazy fucker rapes a woman? you wouldn't want their spawn. and you dont want to end up with unwanted children. and america is the country of choice.

[swayside]

At 12/4/02 04:55 AM, MarijuanaClock wrote:
Agreed, I am pro-life, but the fact still remains it's the woman's body.

it's not the woman's body that is in question here. it's the body of the unborn child. are you implying that the body of the baby is not it's own? when does it become wrong to kill a baby? after birth? if a child is not yet born, but is mature enough to survive being taken out of the womb, is it still ok to kill it?
and as for sentiency being the deciding factor, what about people with brain defects that can't sence the outside world at all. is it ok to kill those people?
and as for rape situations, i have to say that life's not fair. if such a thing happens, there are places a woman can go to get help. nothing justifies the taking of an innocent human life.

[swayside]

At 12/4/02 09:58 AM, Slizor wrote:
So we should let people with food poisoning die or let them suffer? Food poisoning is a result of eating food, it is a consequence. If you don't know that eating food can give you food poisoning you shouldn't do it.

but eating food doesn't hold the possibility of creating new life. takeing a life without any reason other than it's own existance can never be justified.

[House-Of-Leaves]

I used to run a Youth for Life group when I was in highschool, and I won a few pro-life speech contests back then as well. I can give you all sorts of reasons NOT to choose abortion: Families who are desperate to adopt a baby is one of the biggest. I also happen to believe that it's a life even BEFORE conception, (paraphrased: "even before you were formed in the womb, I knew you." - God) If you don't believe in God, there's plenty of medical evidence about when life begins in the womb, when the heart begins to beat, the brain functions, pain can be felt, all that.

Then there's methods of abortion. They're all grotesque and painful and awful.

But after I grew up a little, I understood a few things...

I am responsible for my body and my body alone. Let's say I were in the position to do so...if I WERE to take the choice of abortion away from someone (especially American women as a whole), it would do quite a few negative things: Women AND unborn children would die as a result of back-alley abortions and butchers/doctors that provide illegal abortions. The day of coat-hanger abortions would return.

Also, it would set a presidence that we can't afford. It would infringe upon our freedoms, and that's already happening WAY too much. If that goes...then what's next?

I hate abortion. It's an ugly thing, and I feel it's wrong. But I refuse to let a mostly-male government tell me OR my fellow women what I can and cannot do with MY body. And I won't pass judgement on those who choose the route of abortion. It's not my place.

[just-plain-different]

I say it is completely the mother's choice.. I just want to ban particle birth abortion. That is just awful. I feel there needs to be a reason too. A REAL reason. I guess my thinking is, There are billions of people on this earth. I'm not too sure if I'd want to have a child for this reason. Why add to the problem of overp-population? I know it sounds harsh. I wish it not to be.

[House-Of-Leaves]

At 12/5/02 12:29 AM, just_plain_different wrote: I say it is completely the mother's choice.. I just want to ban particle birth abortion. That is just awful.

I have to agree with you there. Partial birth abortion SHOULD be illegal. As should the saline method. And all third trimester abortions, unless there's some danger to the life of the mother.

If anyone wants a description of partial birth abortions, or saline injection abortions...let me know. Not many people know the actual method of these, but I'm not willing to put something so graphic up here without someone actually being curious about it.

I may change my mind, and post it anyway. People should be informed.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/5/02 12:53 AM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:
If anyone wants a description of partial birth abortions, or saline injection abortions...let me know.

No, not neccesary.

[House-Of-Leaves]

Oh, good. :) Because I don't WANT to.

Hello, and good night, MarijuanaClock. :)

[Ethiopian-Fat-Camp]

I say its the choice of the woman. I personally believe that its wrong. I don't believe it is cold-blood murder, but it is taking a life. Thats not just a fetus, that thing grows up. Thats the same outlook on every new parent anyway. "We're having a baby!"
No you're not, you're CREATING a HUMAN BEING that has feelings, a conscience, and compassion, and could one say change the lives of many. People talk like "we're having a baby" as if they got it from a fucking store.
...but i digress.

My point is that I don't think its a place where the LAW should interfere. However, if human compassion doesn't intervene with the woman's choice, God (or whatever) help her. If i, and im only 16, impregnated my girlfriend, and she wanted an abortion, i'd put up a pretty big fight (not like fisticuffs, but u know) for the child's sake... MY child's sake, and the woman should know "OUR" child's sake.

Unless the birth is threatening the carrier's life or predicted beyond a shaddow of a doubt to be a stillborn, the human being should live.

"Well what about rape?"
Well... what about it? Yeah, rape sucks. But if birth is a result of it, the victim should not see it as a strenuous exercise. If the woman is worried about her figure being in check, she better look from a coupl-a more angles of the situation. If she's not prepared to raise the child, I have no qualms. Nobody should be FORCED into that burden, especially when there are many people out there who prefer adoption. Even if adoption didn't come to the child in the end, it is still a human being, and life is too precious to just do one out.

"What about irresponsible teens"
Horseshit, they are responsible, and they better learn to figure this through. Taking the life of one (the child) is NOT a fair exchange for removing a burden of responsibility. I know that its an annoying cliche that you see on car bumpers, but its a child, not a choice.

Once again, I don't believe the law has any place in this situation. I'm not part of any pro-life organisation, and I don't label myself as "pro life." I label myself as "Listen to my take on this before you fucking judge me." Cus thats all I want to do, throw in my two cents, and not ask for change.