Religion, Nationalism, Capitalism.

[MarijuanaClock]

If we eliminated these things what would we have?

[Commander-K25]

Stalinist Russia
Khmer Rouge
Red China

all of the above

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/2/02 08:59 PM, Commander-K25 wrote: Stalinist Russia
Khmer Rouge
Red China

all of the above

So you're saying those places aren't Nationalistic?

Whaaa??????

[Commander-K25]

nix the nationalism

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/2/02 09:08 PM, Commander-K25 wrote: nix the nationalism

Then I ask you again:

Religion, Nationalism, Capitalism.

If we eliminate these things what will we have?

[MarijuanaClock]

........... no answer eh?

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

At 12/3/02 12:19 AM, MarijuanaClock wrote: ........... no answer eh?

The only way to do this is through world wide communism, true communism. Where spirituality is more important than paying constant tribute to a god. Where the means of production are made public and a planed economy ensured housing, food, medical care, and education to all. Where the world would be unified under a co-op that made borders meaningless and continents a simple mater of geography rather than overly complex politics. It won’t happen for a while. The only other way to rid the world of these plights is to remove mankind altogether.

[Freakapotimus]

At 12/3/02 04:25 AM, Spike_J_Wolfwood wrote: The only other way to rid the world of these plights is to remove mankind altogether.

Communism is a great philosophy, but most people are proud by nature. Not necessarily the snotty kind, but the pride that comes from seeing your completed project, or knowing that a job's been well done. People want to be rewarded for their work.

When they buy a house after saving from their work, they feel hurt or anger when they find a lower-income family moving in next-door because they received a grant. When their child receives a rejection letter from college, they again feel hurt or anger when they hear about the kid from the lower-income family getting in on need-based scholarships.

Things are unfair all around, and it would be nice if people could get along, each person receiving the same as his neighbor. But you're right in saying that it won't happen anytime soon. It's human nature.

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

True, pride is in our nature. However we are socialized to believe that we are defined by the things we own. You are not that fancy house or that new car. A person is defined by the things that they create and by the thoughts and ideas they have. The kind of pride a person feels after finishing a painting, building a table, writing a song, or even making a really good flash movie. In a communistic society, social values are focused on work ethic, and pride in the idea that all effort in one way or another will benefit all society. Unfortunately in a capitalistic society most people have more pride in owning an I-pod than, lets say, creating a literary work. It still won’t happen for a while but it’s not human nature that will get in the way. First a super power like America must start a rapid decline creating an economically depressed police state. Revolutions and a brief civil war may give way to a reconstruction period. <~~~ that’s the short version.

[Freakapotimus]

I see what you mean. It's comparable to Buddhist thought, that you do not need material things to be happy, because desire leads to suffering. I feel myself getting caught in the trap at times, when I see girls I went to high school with, driving nice cars or buying houses. I get a little jealous that they are doing better than I am. Maybe that's true, in a material sense. But I have other things that I am proud of, like the decorations I'm making for a party or having dinner with a really good friend. In general, in society's eyes, I'm not up to par, because I'm not married yet, I don't own a car or a house, and I haven't finished college yet. Does that make me a bad person? No. While close friends and family might know it, those girls at the reunion (or society as a whole) might not see it that way.

[Nightshadeplus]

At 12/2/02 08:55 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote: If we eliminated these things what would we have?

What would you have without capitalism? Are you asking about the alternative to capitalism that being absolute government control on the production and pricing of goods and services? If you mean that, then the world would be going backwards, not forward. Most of the miracles invented during the 20th century were done because of the freedom underneath the capitalist system.

Nationalism and religion can go hand and hand because it asks for blind faith on the part of everyone. Faith for your religion and faith for your government. Both can be tools of destruction, using its believers and aim them straight at something that is concocted as a threat. But religion has helped establish a code of moral beliefs that bring people into check. Nationalism is somewhat essential for the unity of the state.

Anyway, if these are eliminated, there will still be problems in this world. It wouldn't become any better if the three are eliminated. All three can be used as tools by some to control others. Without these tools, these same people would use other tools to try to fulfill their desire for power.

[Slizor]

What would you have without capitalism? Are you asking about the alternative to capitalism that being absolute government control on the production and pricing of goods and services? If you mean that, then the world would be going backwards, not forward. Most of the miracles invented during the 20th century were done because of the freedom underneath the capitalist system.

Urm, like what? I mean, the time when people were most inventive was during World War 2, but that had nothing to do with Capitalism.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 12/7/02 06:30 AM, Slizor wrote:

What would you have without capitalism? Are you asking about the alternative to capitalism that being absolute government control on the production and pricing of goods and services? If you mean that, then the world would be going backwards, not forward. Most of the miracles invented during the 20th century were done because of the freedom underneath the capitalist system.

The main belief of communism is progress,it's foreward thinking. Russia went went from a almost completly agricultural country to one of the most industrialized and powerful nations in the word as a result of communism. The right wing, however, preaches a backward looking view. Conservatives believe in keeping the status quo. In fact the extrem right wing(fascism) looks back to a countries former glory. Musolini even wanted to bring the glory of the roman empire back to Italy.

Secondly major advancement was not brought on by capitalism, it was brought on by war, violence and greed. Well the greed part is capitalistic I suppose.

[Kev-Dawg]

Then I ask you again:

Religion, Nationalism, Capitalism.

If we eliminate these things what will we have?

For some reason, I can't stop thinking of "Of Mind and Machine" when I hear this. I guess it's because one way to eliminate all three of these is to make the human race a series of mindless drones.

Or, you could wind up with just plain Anarchy. I'm not too sure which kind, though:

-The peaceful Anarchy, where government has set things up so that it may step down and leave the maintainence of society to the people.

-The destructive Anarchy, where people attack anything that's a potential institution, and mobs run wild in the streets, crime waves, etc, etc, etc....

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

At 12/7/02 06:30 AM, Slizor wrote:

Urm, like what? I mean, the time when people were most inventive was during World War 2, but that had nothing to do with Capitalism.

Well actually yes, it was due to capitalism. Within at least the past two hundred years the main drive of all war has been profit. Civil war, emancipation was a side benefit for the north, mainly it was about land and agriculture. WW II ? Well, we ignored what was going on in Europe until we realized that a war could pull us out of a depression. Likewise, the major advancements in science were helped by capitalism simply because a feudal state is too oppressive for free thought to reign. However, capitalism is now retarding progress. More spending goes to military than cancer research, or developing a truly respectable space program. Capitalists will only develop technology if it will make large sums of money really fast or it can kill a whole lot of people so we can control their land.

[EZ3]

At 12/2/02 08:55 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote: If we eliminated these things what would we have?

freedom?

[Andrew-Traviss]

Neither communism nor capitalism holds the correst formula for success as a society. There must be a medium between the two.

Some things must be strictly controlled by the government, so that a basic quality of life can be assured for all, so that we can get clear of the basic animal problem of survival, and turn ourselves towards improvement of ourselves and society.

Competition cannot be eliminated however, since it is one of the strongest driving forces in creating progress, thus there must also be the opportunity to indulge greed, and to be able to compete and to attain greater riches than the average citizen.

Thus it is my opinion that all the essentials of life (basic food, shelter, basic clothing, and basic transportation) should be handled by the government, and that luxury items and services shall be the domain of the capital sector.

It allows everyone to exist at a certain standard of living without removing the incentive to strive and do better.