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First death in Paris riots...

'Authorities in France have announced the first death believed to be linked to the riots that have shaken the country. A 61-year old man set upon on Friday night in a suburb of Paris has died after spending the weekend in a coma.

Police are reviewing their strategies after violence broke out for the 11th consecutive night in the capital and spread to other centres. Only hours after the French President vowed to defeat the rioters police were shot at and more than 1400 vehicles were torched.

Police unions are calling on the government to impose curfews and bring in the army to restore order. At least 10 police officers were hurt in the violence overnight.'

Euro News

I say call the legion home, they will sort shit out in one night

At 11/7/05 01:28 PM, punisher19848 wrote: They still retain much of their former culture, but the've assimilated knowledge of the host culture as well: language, politics, the economic system, etc...

But this is not what I call assimilating - absorbing into the host culture is assimilation. This is not necessary, you can keep your original culture and still do well in society. Most North African immigrants do adopt the political system of the host - the ones who denounce democracy make up less than a percent of the population. The only thing they've lacked to adept properly to is the economical part, hence a lot of them live in slums and they apparently blame the government for their situation. Asians tend to be more crafty when it comes to making money in a foreign country.

ande intermarrige is a sign of assimilation as the children of that marraige will be of the host culture.

The 'often' should have been replaced with 'hardly', but then I started googling and found out that about 45% in France does intermarry. Scratch that part of my post, my mistake.

But it does often conflict with western law; just look at polygamy...

Polygamy is also forbidden for muslims in Europe. There might only be a few breaches in the system when the guy has a few wives in non-EU countries.

1. Educational emersion in the native tounge: no bi-lingual education for immigrant students below the 2nd grade

Bilingual education might hamper integration a bit but it's not necessarily a problem - look at the previously mentioned Jews. According to this source 25% of French Jewish school age children attend full-time Jewish schools. It's okay as long as they adequately learn the host language and go to a public high school or college. If muslim schools fail to provide this education then the individual schools need to be sanctioned but a general prohibition is not required.

2. Forced eradication of all the immigrant customs that conflict with the laws of the host nation.

This isn't an issue; I can't think of any situation were immigrants are allowed to take actions which are illegal for natives.

3. Forbid defimation of host culture in the public arena.

You can't. As long as one doesn't call for violence or slanders a person/company's reputation then he has freedom of speech. If natives are allowed to say that immigrants should be kicked out then immigrants should have the right to talk bad about whatever they like. Defaming won't help relations but making it illegal is not an option.

I believe there are more steps that can be taken, but this is all I can think of right now.

The discussions about this subject have been endless in the West but there aren't that many clear solutions. The only countries who don't have this problem are the ones with nearly closed borders like Norway and Sweden. It's sad that a lot didn't succeed in their new countries but it's mainly their own fault - France itself can hardly be blamed for not forcing the migrants to attend National Appreciation camp or something similar. It would only generate more resentment.
All you can do is lock them up when they do get violent.

Yay for open borders!

At 11/6/05 11:51 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: A couple of cops were shot now too. I think its about time to bring in the national guard/army and declare martial law and put this to rest before mroe people get hur tor even killed and more property destroyed.

Um, already happened. The army was sent in to restore order (I already mentioned this) and yet the violence has swept across all of France. Now they aren't just the Paris riots; they're the French riots.

And yes it isn't that big of a deal to the 'world' news networks. -.-

At 11/7/05 04:21 PM, altanese_mistress wrote:

At 11/6/05 11:51 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote:

Um, already happened. The army was sent in to restore order (I already mentioned this) and yet the violence has swept across all of France. Now they aren't just the Paris riots; they're the French riots.

And yes it isn't that big of a deal to the 'world' news networks. -.-

this stuff is almost a cival war now, they only thing i could think of doing now is martial law or at the extreme, return fire and kill the activists.

At 11/7/05 04:21 PM, altanese_mistress wrote:
Um, already happened. The army was sent in to restore order (I already mentioned this) and yet the violence has swept across all of France. Now they aren't just the Paris riots; they're the French riots.

And yes it isn't that big of a deal to the 'world' news networks. -.-

Well I'm sure with recent events, the U.S. news stations are taking this and putting it on the back burner, can't say for sure, haven't been keeping up with the news lately....

Anywho, sorry to hear what you Frenchies are goin through over there...

At 11/7/05 01:16 PM, punisher19848 wrote: Like I said, few were even aware of the problem.

Bullshit of the grade A level, weather forecasters had predicted that the shit was gonna hit the fan and the USA Government did nothing to bulk up defences, if I remember right there were budget CUTS to the New Orleans Levees.

It was incompetence that caused all the mayhem.

At 11/4/05 01:27 PM, -LazyDrunk- wrote:

At 11/4/05 01:21 PM, nimmer wrote: we are the borg, you'll be assimilated; resistance is futile. is that what you mean?

Pretty fuckin' efficient, no?

if you think about it it is extremely efficient just to assimilate them but there will always be ressitance in our societies i say we create a master race.... the humans and some how get a a dman central government for the entire world, pretty fuckin beter than all these strugling nations too bad it is immpossible due to conflicts i mean jews and arabs will never get a long

I'd say bs on the grade B level. we knew it was going to happen, but we had never expected it to be as violent or as powerful or destructive as it really was.

Predicting the weather is still an inaccurate science, we can only prepare so much against Mother Nature's fury guys.

And if I heard correct on some special "hurricane" special on tv, this was one of the worst ones recorded, and by far the most destructive to ever hit the U.S.

On that same special, I also heard that this storm was so massive, that it created its own weather patterns, instead of being controlled and guided by weather patterns.

How do you prepare for a storm that CREATES its own weather systems???

At 11/7/05 06:22 PM, Imperator wrote: How do you prepare for a storm that CREATES its own weather systems???

Thats right! You can't prepare for something like this! You better evacuate everyone to Canada because its gonna destroy everything!! Watch out everyone!

Three key steps in preparing citizens for a hurricane
1) Make sure they have a plan of action for pending circumstances
FEMA guidelines
2) Have an evacuation plan in case circumstances demand it.
3) Have local, state, and federal communications set up and have cooperation within each other.

Plus the levees were only hurricane strength lvl 3, whereas its been repeatedly noted the need for a better system.

'June 2003: An article entitled The Creeping Storm from Civil Engineering Magazine included the following quote:

The design of the original levees, which dates to the 1960s, was based on rudimentary storm modeling that, it is now realized, might underestimate the threat of a potential hurricane. Even if the modeling was adequate, however, the levees were designed to withstand only forces associated with a fast-moving hurricane that, according to the National Weather Service’s Saffir-Simpson scale, would be placed in category 3. If a lingering category 3 storm — or a stronger storm, say, category 4 or 5 — were to hit the city, much of New Orleans could find itself under more than 20 ft (6 m) of water.'

http://en.wikipedia...risk_for_New_Orleans

At 11/7/05 06:05 PM, Imperator wrote: Well I'm sure with recent events, the U.S. news stations are taking this and putting it on the back burner, can't say for sure, haven't been keeping up with the news lately....

I don't know about you guys, but right now the French riots are front page news in Canada :|

lol theyre just shitting on themselves, i mean they mainly bombing their local stations and burning up things that belong to other members of their community, if they wanted emplayment or whatever, its too late, everyone is scared of those people.. to hire.. the african immigrants

At 11/7/05 07:03 PM, RedScorpion wrote:

http://en.wikipedia...risk_for_New_Orleans

Your kidding right. Wikipedia is your source??

Well thanks for using a site where anyone can edit things as your "proof".
I'm gonna go edit that one now and refute your claims....humdedumdedum......

"In 2004, an Army Corps of Engineers report noted that a Category 5 hurricane directly striking New Orleans was a one in 500 year event "

I only edited the second paragraph in the whole article, didn't need to edit any more after reading this.

Right, so we are preparing for a 1 in 500 year event? Wouldn't the government feel there would be more pressing matters at hand??

"There have been various plans to mitigate or prevent catastrophies, but none could be carried out before the time of Katrina and the city, like many others, heavily relied on evacuation in case of a category 5 storm. No provisions could be made in time to evacuate the massive amount of people who could not evacuate themselves."

This is the part I edited, and made it sound a lot more like there was no way to prepare for this.

Shows how good of a source wikipedia is....

I'd like the next poster to confirm that this is what the link now says and post it for proof please

http://en.wikipedia...ness_for_New_Orleans

At 11/8/05 01:33 AM, Imperator wrote: Right, so we are preparing for a 1 in 500 year event? Wouldn't the government feel there would be more pressing matters at hand??

Yeah, like Nuclear War is a common event and therefore needs prepared for? 0_o

At 11/8/05 02:31 AM, PimpDaddyFynizzle wrote:

At 11/8/05 01:33 AM, Imperator wrote: Right, so we are preparing for a 1 in 500 year event? Wouldn't the government feel there would be more pressing matters at hand??

Yeah, like Nuclear War is a common event and therefore needs prepared for? 0_o

That's being taken out of it's natural time frame. After WWII, the threat of nuclear war was at its peak, and that's when the arms race began. Today we have tapered off and even begun removing and dismantling our nuclear stockpile. START 1 and 2 I believe?

Common theme of human nature: You learn best through failure. There is no substitution for experience.

You can rest assured that we will be prepared for a hurricane from now on...

Didn't 9/11 teach you anything about being "Prepared" ?

At 11/8/05 02:54 AM, Imperator wrote: That's being taken out of it's natural time frame. After WWII, the threat of nuclear war was at its peak, and that's when the arms race began. Today we have tapered off and even begun removing and dismantling our nuclear stockpile. START 1 and 2 I believe?

Yet you still have all this nonsense with the government claiming you need them..

You can rest assured that we will be prepared for a hurricane from now on...

I'll believe it when it happens.

At 11/8/05 03:12 AM, PimpDaddyFynizzle wrote:
Yet you still have all this nonsense with the government claiming you need them..

What the hell are you talking about? I thought we were discussing our preparations for Katrina, or did I miss a step somewhere?

I don't recall ever saying that I need the government, or that the government claimed I needed them??

Either or, don't have a clue what you're saying here.....

At 11/8/05 01:25 AM, Imperator wrote: Your kidding right. Wikipedia is your source??

Well thanks for using a site where anyone can edit things as your "proof".
I'm gonna go edit that one now and refute your claims....humdedumdedum......

You didn't even read the rest of what I wrote...

Which you then go on to say that you can't prepare at all for this type of hurricane.

And it said that the levees could be toppled by a LINGERING Catagory 3 hurricane, compared to a fast moving one. Which Katrina ended up to be a catagory 4 hurricane before it hit.

So why can't you PREPARE for this hurricane?

At 11/8/05 03:31 AM, Imperator wrote: Either or, don't have a clue what you're saying here.....

Context is important, read what I quoted right above what I said. =/

At 11/7/05 06:05 PM, Imperator wrote: Well I'm sure with recent events, the U.S. news stations are taking this and putting it on the back burner, can't say for sure, haven't been keeping up with the news lately....

Anywho, sorry to hear what you Frenchies are goin through over there...

=P I'm not from France. Never even been to Europe. But thats beside the point...

The point is that the 'world' news networks need to get their priorities in order. Which is more important; a near-civil-war in a once stable industrial nation, or some iquiery into the government? I mean, this is dominating the news; barly any mention of whats happening in France.

At 11/7/05 12:19 PM, lapis wrote:

At 11/6/05 11:47 AM, nimmer wrote: again those people come from the ex-colonies they speak french as a mother tongue.

Berber languages are usually the mother tongue.

i said A mother tongue not "the mother tongue" it's a fact that even now french is still an official language in most of the meditterean countries. and they learn it from a very tender age. plus most of those rioters are 2nd or 3rd generation and have been raised in france. in france they learn french. they get classes in french, they talk to friends in french so their knowledge of french is better then their berber language.

headscarfs LOL. even nowadays the old native women oft wear headscarfs. so the headscarfs is, in our culture, mayhbe outdated but not unknown of.

Muslims use the headscarf as a way to distinguish themselves from native French.

what a load of bullshit. muslim women wear it as a sign of their religion, just like some people here wear a necklace with a cross on it; or a pentagram or whatever.

If you want to separate from other parts of society then don't be surprised if you don't get a job as easily as others.

most of those immigrants (certainly those of the 2nd and 3rd generation consider themselves as frenchmen. it's the white that make the separation.

Clothes make the man, or however the saying goes in English. You can't blame business owners for expecting some sort of dress code.

true but then you can't blame people for having a religion, and dressing accordingly neither

I don't believe this. If it was true then no Belgian immigrant would have a job.

it is true; i 'm not saying it happens to all of the immigrants all of the time, but it happens.

I think the high unemployment problem among immigrants can be blamed on lack of education and presentation abilities first.

that's why immigrants having 2 or 3 university degrees have to sweep the street. i know street sweepers that where docter in their country of origin. or philosophers. i know people born and raised in belgium with university degrees and still they have to do work shit jobs.

I'm still prety sure that eventual racism can be overcome. That's why I posted the list of people - they made it. And saying that they just got hired as an excuse for alleged racism is pretty insulting to them.

it can be overcome ... sometimes. but you have to be twice as good as native people would or you have to be an excuse.

People getting arrested for no particular reason? Whites being let off the hook? Look, this is Western Europe, not South Africa under apartheid. I personally can't recall ever having seen police racism, but even if you have a few times, it's still hardly structural. Having seen incidents like these a few times doesn't mean the police are actively hunting down migrants and excusing whites.

but it happens .structural or not is not the problem. it happens that's the problem. an more oft as you think. but believe what you want to believe. i've lived in an area that some people consider a ghetto. i've seen it.

even if they blow some of those chances then the government is still responsible. because we all give a part of our responsability to the government so they can reign. ergo the government is responsible for their subjects.

So when I steal it's the government's fault because they should have looked after me better? If I end up as a janitor when I'm 50 then all my lost dreams of fortune are the fault of the government instead my own lack of effort?

No, i'm not talking about responsability as in fault. i'm not saying the goverment is allways to blame. i'm saying that the government still has to give you chances. it's for their own good because there's no group that is as dangerous to soceity as the underprivileged.

Exactly! They have something to lose! And why is that? Maybe because they (as a collective) are more industrious? The rioters have nothing to lose, which is, like I said before, their own fault.

no it's because new immigrants showed up and pushed those people a step higher.

So you're saying that no migrant can ever make it in France/Belgium/Netherlands? They are doomed and could just as well burn stuff because everything good they'll ever do will not be appreciated by society?

no, i'm saying that not all immigrants can make it.

At 11/8/05 06:30 AM, altanese_mistress wrote: I mean, this is dominating the news; barly any mention of whats happening in France.

Well, in Canada right now the major news companies are headlining the French riots, whats going on over there, why it started, etc. It may be that Canada has stronger french cultural links than in the US, but at least here France is getting alot of attention.
Regardless, a nation going into anarchy should be recognized as top priority - this isn't some third world african country, this is France for heavens sake - a first world european country. France is a modern civilized country - its hard to believe that riots could overtake such a country.

I guess you guys can weigh the importance - France going into anarchy, or another scandal in politics? Hmm...

they arnt really that bad, i mean its bin goin on for like 2 weeks and only 1,300 cars were burnt and a few shots fired and only 1 person killed. i gues its hard to fit the rag in the end of a wine bottle for the petrol bombs. wen there were riots here a few months ago there were nearly that many cars burnt in a weekend and loadsa ppl got their cars jacked and in one night over 500 rounds of automatic rifle fire were shot at the police.

this aslo highlights the ineptitude of the french police, im surprised they havnt surrendered yet.

At 11/7/05 02:28 PM, lapis wrote:

At 11/7/05 01:28 PM, punisher19848 wrote: They still retain much of their former culture, but the've assimilated knowledge of the host culture as well: language, politics, the economic system, etc...

But this is not what I call assimilating - absorbing into the host culture is assimilation.

That is the most extreme form of assimiliation, but this often takes many generations to accomplish.

The 'often' should have been replaced with 'hardly', but then I started googling and found out that about 45% in France does intermarry. Scratch that part of my post, my mistake.

This just makes my point more clear than before: the immigrants are not intermarrying with the locals and thus not assimilating through that venue. And where do you get the impression that offspring of intermarried cultures don't assimilate at least part of the host culture's identity? That's how it has been working in the U.S. for over two centuries!

Polygamy is also forbidden for muslims in Europe. There might only be a few breaches in the system when the guy has a few wives in non-EU countries.

Few? Last time I looked at the situation (back in 2003), there were about 15,000 polygamous families that had entered the nation from foreign nations! That's not "a few."

Bilingual education might hamper integration a bit but it's not necessarily a problem - look at the previously mentioned Jews. According to this source 25% of French Jewish school age children attend full-time Jewish schools. It's okay as long as they adequately learn the host language and go to a public high school or college. If muslim schools fail to provide this education then the individual schools need to be sanctioned but a general prohibition is not required.

25% of of all students in a community is not a big deal. Besides, these private Jewish scholls are founded and attended by the upper-class of he Jewish community (which have a stake in the health of their host culture; if it goes down, they go down with it). This is not true of the immigrant lower-classes: they have little lose if the contemporary culture crashes (from their own perspective, whether or not this perspective is reality is yet to be seen).

This isn't an issue; I can't think of any situation were immigrants are allowed to take actions which are illegal for natives.

Then tell me why the local authories avoided the immigrant portions of town like the plauge! If there are no cops to forcefully iradicate the things the immigrants brought over from their homelands that may prove harmful, what's to keep these things from taking root in their new surroundings?

You can't. As long as one doesn't call for violence or slanders a person/company's reputation then he has freedom of speech. If natives are allowed to say that immigrants should be kicked out then immigrants should have the right to talk bad about whatever they like. Defaming won't help relations but making it illegal is not an option.

Defimation IS slander and libel (or, at least it is in our legal system)! If they spread slander and libel against the host culture, I see no legal barriers to shutting down the source of this defimation.

Freedom of speech does not apply to all forms of speech.

The discussions about this subject have been endless in the West but there aren't that many clear solutions. The only countries who don't have this problem are the ones with nearly closed borders like Norway and Sweden. It's sad that a lot didn't succeed in their new countries but it's mainly their own fault - France itself can hardly be blamed for not forcing the migrants to attend National Appreciation camp or something similar. It would only generate more resentment.
All you can do is lock them up when they do get violent.

Actually, that does sound like a good idea: close the borders. That ought to keep the trash out while our immigration services can filter through the quality laborers that can benefit our economy. Why didn't I suggest that in my last post?

New update: the riots have moved out from France into Belgium and Western Germany. Damn, it's gonna sweep the European continent before it's over!

Oh well... maybe this will teachthem to better police their borders.

At 11/8/05 08:16 AM, nimmer wrote: i said A mother tongue not "the mother tongue" it's a fact that even now french is still an official language in most of the meditterean countries. and they learn it from a very tender age. plus most of those rioters are 2nd or 3rd generation and have been raised in france. in france they learn french. they get classes in french, they talk to friends in french so their knowledge of french is better then their berber language.

Your 'mother tongue' is the language your mother uses to talk to you when you were a baby, and most people have only one unless you are the child of parents with different ethnicities, in which case you are a lot more likely to be raised with two different languages. And people from the Maghreb speak Berber at home. If they wouldn't then Moroccans in Holland would also speak French to each other and they don't. Not one.

what a load of bullshit. muslim women wear it as a sign of their religion, just like some people here wear a necklace with a cross on it; or a pentagram or whatever.

They wear to express their cultural identity, nowhere in the Qu'ran are headscarfs mentioned as far as I know. You aren't any less a muslim when you don't wear one, thus the ones who do are doing it to show their ethnicity. Not wearing one is a better sign of integration and will probably boost your chances during job interviews.

it is true; i 'm not saying it happens to all of the immigrants all of the time, but it happens.

It happens at times, sure, but not always, so if there's racism then it's not structural and the immigrant could get a job elsewhere.

that's why immigrants having 2 or 3 university degrees have to sweep the street.

Bullshit. Immigrants with a degree in medicine can get a job practically anywhere in the big cities. There are plenty foreigners working at the hospitals in my city. My dentist is an Indonesian Chinese and he has a Turkish assistent. I knew one Ethiopian who did business school in Africa and who did speak the language decently and he was a paperboy. But that was because he was illegal in Europe. And if you got two degrees and a passport, whether it be law or economics or anything for that matter, you are very valuable on the labour market no matter where your parents or grandparents were born.

i know street sweepers that where docter in their country of origin. or philosophers.

Then the needed qualifications for a doctor are higher in Belgium, they haven't mastered the language (medicine is a people job) or they lack presentation skills.

but it happens .structural or not is not the problem.

Rape also happens, but when it does the rapist is to blame and not society or the government. One should only blame the government when it's structural.

it happens that's the problem. an more oft as you think. but believe what you want to believe. i've lived in an area that some people consider a ghetto. i've seen it.

Don't even start with that shit. Everybody on the internet is from a 'ghetto'. I haven't seen it and until I do you're still blowing things way out of proportion to me. I heard complaints about not getting into clubs with a Middle Eastern looking group and to me that's the worst case of racism here. And I also see a growing number of foreign policemen, bouncers and ticket inspectors in trains. They are joining the authorities.

No, i'm not talking about responsability as in fault. i'm not saying the goverment is allways to blame. i'm saying that the government still has to give you chances.

By doing what? You can go to public school but if you don't graduate then it's not the government's fault. If you still want to make it in life then you should see to it that you can afford your own education. You can't expect the government to keep pumping money into people even when they screwed up in the past. You get equal chances but if you don't use them and still want to succeed, then you should work harder and create chances.

Exactly! They have something to lose! And why is that? Maybe because they (as a collective) are more industrious? The rioters have nothing to lose, which is, like I said before, their own fault.

no it's because new immigrants showed up and pushed those people a step higher.

What? Elaborate this please. Which new immigrants?

no, i'm saying that not all immigrants can make it.

Not all natives can make it either. But that doesn't mean they're 'second class citizens' and it certainly does not give them a reason to riot.

Why aren't American news stations showing more of the riots in France? Simple, it's because most of the American populace doesn't care. Now I know this doesn't apply to basically everyone in the Politics forum, since you all care enough about politics and the world to state your own opinion and read the opinions of others, but the average, stereotypical, ignorant American would much rather have the news feed him or her information about the scandals that the opposing political party are allegedly committing just to fuel their own sense of justification for belonging to whatever political party they belong to. It's a shame, really, because it would go a long way to making Americans more aware of their international allies if they were on the news every now and then.

At 11/8/05 04:59 AM, PimpDaddyFynizzle wrote:

At 11/8/05 03:31 AM, Imperator wrote: Either or, don't have a clue what you're saying here.....

Context is important, read what I quoted right above what I said. =/

This is what you quoted right above what you said, "At 11/8/05 02:54 AM, Imperator wrote:

That's being taken out of it's natural time frame. After WWII, the threat of nuclear war was at its peak, and that's when the arms race began. Today we have tapered off and even begun removing and dismantling our nuclear stockpile. START 1 and 2 I believe?

I still don't see how I am saying this, "
Yet you still have all this nonsense with the government claiming you need them..
"

????
You are trying to say we prepare for nuclear war, so why shouldn't we prepare for a 1 in 500 year chance of a hurricane etc.

What I said was we prepared for nuclear war RIGHT AFTER we droped 2 A-bombs on Japan, during the arms race.

We learn from our mistakes, not from predicting the apocalyptic disasters.
In 50 years, if a hurricane like this comes again, we will be better prepared, because we can use Katrina as a REFERENCE POINT. Nothing like this has ever happened before, we had some bad predictions yes, but the actual damage done far exceeded what was predicted. We prepared for what was predicted, but having no precedent, how could we possibly know the massive extent of damage that Katrina caused. This includes the TOTAL extent of Katrina's damage, not just New Orleans and the levies breaking.

If this is not what you mean, then explain yourself. I am not a mind reader, and do not understand what context you would like me to put your quote in....

Red Scorpion, I did read your entire post, plain old logic should have told you that, considering the link was at the bottom of the page....

We can prepare TO AN EXTENT. But there's no way anybody could have predicted that Katrina would lead to the oil refineries closing down, the exceedingly massive amount of displaced and now homeless, etc.
And if the levies were in such bad shape for so many years (your post dates the levies to 1960), then how come they weren't EVER fixed?

You blame the current administration, as if it's all their fault. But they weren't updated for 40 YEARS, explain that one to me wiseguy....

Again I ask the question, were we prepared for 9/11?
Were we prepared for Vietnam?
Were we prepared for Pear Harbor?
Were we prepared for Operation Market Garden?

These are all things in which we had NO PRIOR EXPERINCE with, and THAT'S why we could not be prepared for Katrina.