Welcome to the World Religions section of Newgrounds. I'd like to begin by offering a special thanks to Sanjay for giving the go ahead on this new project.
Please read the entire launch post. Failure to do so will probably only cause you troubles. No "tl;dr"s here.
Q: What is this club for?
A: This club is for intelligent discussion of any and all religions, beliefs, and/or absence of those beliefs. This is for interpreting and understanding other religions. This is not a place to promote your own religion as better than any other or to put down another's beliefs. This is for expressing your view on other religions and attempting to see where others are coming from. This is like a comparative religions course, except this isn't a lecture; this is merely a discussion and analysis.
I shall be the leader of this club, as well as the founder. I will appoint nine other users to be club authorities as the club grows. Ten is the maximum, including myself, and having less is fine. I hope to have two other authorities selected and validated by the tenth page of this thread. By page one hundred, if this club ever gets there, then I will try to have ten total users in authority by then. The point of the authorities is to review what members and non-members post in the thread and if they feel that one religion is being overly promoted or another being downplayed and ridiculed then they will contact a moderator or administrator and have the problem dealt with. We want to promote a friendly atmosphere here rather than a tense one. Users who cannot respect that will be punished.
Rules:
1. If you wish to join you must post either:
a) What religion you are.
b) "I don't wish to reveal my preferences."
and a statement of why you want to join.
2. Your post, regardless of content, must be a minimum of twelve words, neglecting quotes. It is considered spam in my opinion if you post under twelve words and I will have it removed.
3. You will abide by all NG rules.
4. If a certain religion has a picture associated with it and that picture contains pornography it may NOT be linked to or posted.
5. If you do not post for a month then it will be assumed you have quit the club; if you'll be on vacation or other circumstances occur notify me through e-mail.
6. You may not post prolifically in the club. Please try to make sure you don't post more than three posts on a single page in the thread. Consider making your posts longer and multi-quoting.
7. Don't copy entire articles concerning a religion and post it as if it is all your post. Please merely link to the article and provide a short summary or paraphrase of it.
8. Under NO circumstances may you say that a religion is stupid, wrong, bogus, etc.
9. Please try to be unbiased in this club, although you don't have to remain completely neutral.
10. Listen to the authorities of the club and follow their orders.
11. Be respectful of both members and non-members.
12. Stay on topic.
13. Authorities may propose new discussions when one has been gone through in detail. Members may not. Previously discussed religions may be revisited at an authority's consent.
Explanations of Rules:
1. Well, I thought it would be useful to know where everyone stands concerning their own viewpoints, but I also didn't want to infringe upon someones personal interests. I also wanted to know what invoked your interest in this club.
2. I don't want people to just quote someone else, and then say "I agree." I don't think you can bring relevant information to the club if your post is under twelve words.
3. This is a must, regardless of whether your posting here or somewhere else.
4. I know it may seem silly with some religious pictures, but it falls under an important NG rule and this club will not take responsibility for a post made that has a link to pornography; even if it is relevant to discussion.
5. I don't want to have a 500 person member list when 450 people only posted once and were left inactive on it.
6. Posting too much really causes an annoyance, usually since all those posts end up barely making the twelve word minimum. I will consider exceptions; such as if you made a really good argument that needed to be broken into four posts or more.
7. Come on, I'm not going to sue you for plagiarism or something, but make an effort to contribute without just copying the wikipedia article on a religion to look smart.
8. All beliefs are valid by my terms. I don't care if the religion we're discussing is one that says yours is wrong specifically; that still doesn't give you the right to mock it. I will enforce these rule under any situation. This one will probably get you removed from the club permanently.
9. Ok, I know we all have opinions, but let's try to keep it at discussion and not argument. Being biased leads to argument, so try to avoid that.
10. This is just obvious. It also applies to moderators, they are NG authority figures.
11. I don't care if someone isn't a member and they make a spammy post or someone who is a member makes a rude comment, you don't have the permissions to go and bash on them, let the mods take care of the situation.
12. This will be hard to keep up later on. If you are just now reading this, and you see the topic is now on page 20, then go read what we are talking about instead of just posting "Hey, let's all take about *insert religion here*".
13. I'm sorry, but you're not controlling this topic, I and whomever I promote will be doing that.
Wi/Ht? #28
Q: Ok, now that all that's said, what are we going to do?
A: It will work like this. I or another authority will propose a new religion to be discussed every few pages and that will be explained and discussed by all the members. We will talk about the origins of the religion, how it is practiced today, etc. We will also sometimes propose topics about comparing religions or topics concerning other miscellaneous things concerning religion.
Also, another important note. There is a special website besides the NG topic that will be used for this club. If you wish, you may go to www.nicenet.org and join the World Religions class which I have set up. Here we may post relevant links and articles that wouldn't be suitable for NG and have private discussion. I will also have a separate class for authorities to discuss issues in private. Basically, go to www.nicenet.org and go to join a class. It will prompt you to enter a class key, which is SZ45379W5Z. I will provide authorities with the administrative boards class key through e-mail. Note I can delete your account and ban your I.P. from there, so don't bother trying to spam it and overrun it.
Well then isn't all of that exciting? With that I shall post the current memberlist:
1. Xiivi : NG Authority #1 : NN Authority #1
2. ubarmind : NN Authority #2
I'm sure you're wondering who ubarmind is, well he's just a friend of mine who agreed to join and help administrate the nicenet site, he won't probably post much here though, but you'll see him there often. We will have 10 newgrounds (NG) and 10 nicenet (NN) authorities. Authorities are ranked by their power while members are ranked by their sign-up. Thus, when I update the members list every so often the people who join will be listed by the order they signed up going 1, 2, 3, etc. But the authorities will be ranked according to their power, not by when they became authorities.
Some other minor things. Our club symbol is the the Greek uppercase character "Xi". Check my profile picture for what it looks like. I ask all members to either include "Xi" somewhere in their profile pics or sig pics as the character itself or to write "Xi" in either their message or their signature text. It's optional, but appreciated.
For the record I am Buddhist whilst ubarmind is monotheistic. Since we've already joined we might as well state our preferences.
And now for the show stopper. What will the first topic be for our club? After much consideration I've decided that it is appropriate to begin with what is meant by the term "religion" as compared to the term "faith". I have linked to wikipedia definitions for both of these for your reference. Mainly because now people can't just copy things from there, and also it provides a resource for everyone. Please don't limit yourself to what wikipedia and other sources say about these two topics, try to define these two on your own first before reading other sources, then go and see what else is said about these terms. These are important terms that all club members should become familiar with. So what is your opinion about these? How are they similar, and how are they different? How do they apply to you?
Also, wikipedia offers a detailed list of religions. You may find it here: http://en.wikipedia...ki/List_of_Religions
Let the discussion ensue!
Wi/Ht? #28
Greetings!
First of all, thank you for starting this, Xiivi!
To start the responses:
A technical difference between religion and faith exists. Faith is a set of beliefs about something without any proof of its existence; religion is an orgainized collection of these faiths. For example, one could believe that Jesus is the son of God. This would be part of a faith. Christianity, a religion, could be considered the orgainized collection of this and other faiths.
However, though a technical distinction exists, I find no reason why the words could not be used interchangably in everyday situations.
First off I will post a short reason of why I would like to join.
Why I would like to join
Ever since my mid middle school days I have been interested in debates and arguing. Since middle school wasnt the place to practice my talent I went to other places, mainly internet forums where I could discuss and debate. As I went on it was not the arguing that I liked, but more sharing and giving information to another person through an intellectual manor. I give my opinion on something, someone else gives there and we discuss until we come to an agreement. A club like this would be perfect, no flaming or rude comments, but the essence of debate and discussion is still here.
Religion
I was born and raised christian, I never went to church or practiced anything besides the holidays. But recently I have looked into other religions and I found that agnosticy is a more suitable and realistic religion. Because we as humans will never truly know, so the best we can do is try and be what we think is a good person.
At 10/22/05 01:35 AM, Xiivi wrote: So what is your opinion about these?
I think religion is basically something or everything you are about. If your christian than your whole concept of life has been changed by christianity. If your muslim than your idea of after life or how you should live has been a result of your muslim beliefs. While faith can be what you think or feel, which in a way is almost the same as religion. But you cannot change religion as easily as you can faith, you can have faith that the redsocks will win or have faith that god will protect you.
How are they similar, and how are they different?
They are very similar, they can effect you and are almost interdependant. When your faith has been altered than your ideal of religion can be also, and vice versa. But one (faith) is more short term than the other. Religion lasts your entire life (or it could) whilst faith can be much shorter.
How do they apply to you?
Religion in this day and age effects everyone. Whether its someone on TV or someone coming to your house trying to convince you to change to there beliefs. Religion to me serves little or no purpose, I do not find strength in God or Jesus, I do not pray. Sometimes I wonder why I call myself religious, it might be because I am afraid of after I die. Because I do not know, we could rot in a hole or live on clouds. Which is another reason why I am agnostic, humanity will never know what is holy and what isnt. We wont know what is sin and what isnt, so I believe that as long as you do what you think is right you will be a good person and possibly rewarded.
I have little faith, if god does come to me. He does not come to me when I ask it, he may come when I need it, but he doesnt come when I ask it. Which is why I dont have much faith.
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
At 10/22/05 02:11 AM, ubarmind wrote: Greetings!
First of all, thank you for starting this, Xiivi!
Ah, I'm quite surprised you came to help move the thread along. Does this mean you might start posting more? Hopefully so.
To start the responses:
A technical difference between religion and faith exists. Faith is a set of beliefs about something without any proof of its existence; religion is an orgainized collection of these faiths. For example, one could believe that Jesus is the son of God. This would be part of a faith. Christianity, a religion, could be considered the orgainized collection of this and other faiths.
That's a rather mechanical outlook of the two; but your explaination seems to be very valid and stable enough to hold its own grounds. However, when it comes to the terminology which you are using I'd say it would be more accuracte to say that Faith is comprised of invidual knowledge. Such as it is based off of what you believe to be factual; whether you have proof or not. An example of this would be I believe that 2+2=4 and I do have mathematical proof for this. Yet it is that mathematical proof that I have faith in, not the fact that I think 2+2=4. Also, I think it'd be better for your definition of Religion to be a believe system rather than a collection of beliefs, because even if a collection is organized it must be systematic enough to operate on its own. That's just my opinion of it all.
However, though a technical distinction exists, I find no reason why the words could not be used interchangably in everyday situations.
I can see them used interchangably, because the minor aspects of the two terms differ in a very minimal sense and they are closely related. They may be slightly different, but they can be taken one in the same.
At 10/22/05 03:23 AM, Newgrundling wrote: You know I don't really do clubs, but I thought I'd throw my beliefs out there - these threads are a few years old, but should be pretty accurate, if not eloquent:
Oh don't worry, I know about the whole independant aspect of your nature. No surprise to me that you wouldn't care to join. I read through both the threads, and your arguements bring up valid points.
Religion
I should have assumed you would be one who was agnostic--it fits your character. I would also like to say I was myself for quite some time, after I went through an atheist phase. I also am not wholeheartedly in agreeance with organized religion. Even though I may label myself as Buddist, I do not restrict my faith to all Buddist aspects, it is merely a religion I consider myself closely related with. I agree that religion is ever-changing and that there will never be a final answer.
Religion II
After reading through this I've gotten to know a lot of your religious points and it's all good by my book. I'm somewhat skeptical of an afterlife myself; mainly because of my science knowledge. I see where you come from and how you view things. The threads were a nice way to get to know you better.
At 10/22/05 03:57 AM, Velocitom wrote: First off I will post a short reason of why I would like to join.
Why I would like to join
Ever since my mid middle school days I have been interested in debates and arguing. Since middle school wasnt the place to practice my talent I went to other places, mainly internet forums where I could discuss and debate. As I went on it was not the arguing that I liked, but more sharing and giving information to another person through an intellectual manor. I give my opinion on something, someone else gives there and we discuss until we come to an agreement. A club like this would be perfect, no flaming or rude comments, but the essence of debate and discussion is still here.
Debates are always fun, but please not this isn't all about arguing, it's more of a discussion rather than an argument. I love the idea of intelligent information sharing myself; probably the main reason I decided to make a club dedicated to just that. The more information that is shared the more we can all learn about varying viewpoints, which is awesome. Yet I don't think there is need to always come to an agreement on everything presented. Yes you can share an opinion and someone else propose a differing one, but that doesn't mean you have to settle on an agreement. I do hope the club turns out perfect as you say, with absence of fighting and presence of intellectual debate.
Religion
I was born and raised christian, I never went to church or practiced anything besides the holidays. But recently I have looked into other religions and I found that agnosticy is a more suitable and realistic religion. Because we as humans will never truly know, so the best we can do is try and be what we think is a good person.
I was born Roman Catholic myself, yet I was very loosely raised in that religion. My mother simply tell me there was a God and Jesus and everything they had done. Yet this was all in her own words, she never read from the Bible. Thus when I studied Catholism myself I found that she had adapted the religion to her own personal thoughts and beliefs, which I respect greatly. I dislike very rigid followings of a religion. Being agnostic is becoming more and more popular today, and it really is a flexible view to have.
I think religion is basically something or everything you are about. If your christian than your whole concept of life has been changed by christianity. If your muslim than your idea of after life or how you should live has been a result of your muslim beliefs. While faith can be what you think or feel, which in a way is almost the same as religion. But you cannot change religion as easily as you can faith, you can have faith that the redsocks will win or have faith that god will protect you.
A very loose description of both terms compared to what ubarmind said. Yet you bring up some really good points for discussion. Your religion really does become an integral part of your lifestyle, even if you are agnostic or athiest. I do agree that they are very closely related, yet they still slightly differ. However, I do disagree with what you said about changing religion and faith. Over my lifespan, which has only be a little over 17 years, I have found it must easier to change my religion, yet my faith in things has remained rigid. That is because I shape my religion to fit my faith rather than shaping my faith to fit my religion.
Wi/Ht? #28
At 10/22/05 03:57 AM, Velocitom wrote: They are very similar, they can effect you and are almost interdependant. When your faith has been altered than your ideal of religion can be also, and vice versa. But one (faith) is more short term than the other. Religion lasts your entire life (or it could) whilst faith can be much shorter.
Again, it seems we have varying viewpoints on this, and that's really good for discussion for this club, I'm sure you'll bring a lot to the table for debate. I think that your faith is what lasts your entire life, and that is changes ever slowly. Whilst I believe that religion changes to fit the beliefs you hold and is more dynamic than static. It all comes down to your personal definition of these two terms. So as you can see, they really shouldn't be used interchanably although they can and are.
Religion in this day and age effects everyone. Whether its someone on TV or someone coming to your house trying to convince you to change to there beliefs. Religion to me serves little or no purpose, I do not find strength in God or Jesus, I do not pray. Sometimes I wonder why I call myself religious, it might be because I am afraid of after I die. Because I do not know, we could rot in a hole or live on clouds. Which is another reason why I am agnostic, humanity will never know what is holy and what isnt. We wont know what is sin and what isnt, so I believe that as long as you do what you think is right you will be a good person and possibly rewarded.
You're correct in my opinion about religion affecting you on a day to day basis. It is everywhere and you can't help having to hear what others have to say and what they believe. I do think religion doesn't serve as important of a purpose as faith does, for it is your faith that affects you on a sincere level. I prayed between the ages of 10 and 12. I was embracing Catholism at that point, but then something sent me to athiesm which I forget now. Then I shifted to agnostic, and for a while I've been Buddist. And yes, death is a major factor in determining what religion you choose to associate yourself with. Whatever your faith in death and afterlife is really will change your religion. I like to live in the now rather than the future or the past though, so I don't worry about death just yet.
I have little faith, if god does come to me. He does not come to me when I ask it, he may come when I need it, but he doesnt come when I ask it. Which is why I dont have much faith.
I have much faith in what I believe is true, while I have very few religious aspects. We're really contrasting on these points, which is why I proposed this as the first topic for the club.
Yes I realize some may think I've broken the sixth rule of this club, but this is exactly the exception I'm speaking of in my explaination. This is technically still my second post. If you must break up your post it still counts as one.
Wi/Ht? #28
I am Agnostic, but grew up in a Catholic home. I studied World Religions for a couple years, and have a strong interest. Well ,to be accurate, I studied World Beleifs, as not everything we studied was a 'religion' per say.
If anyone is wondering Agnosticism is a belief in which the person who is agnostic believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. Though my specific beliefs are a little different, but basically I believe that there is a greater power, it is just that we, as humans, don’t have the capacity to ever fully understand it.
So what is your opinion about these?
Religion to me is simply a community of common thought. Where faith is the individual connection to that common thought. If you are religious, you believe in something within a community of people who have the same belief. If you have faith, then you have a connection with what it is you believe, and have dedicated yourself to that common thought, but on an individual, personal, and sometimes more detailed level.
How are they similar, and how are they different?
They are similar in the way that the belief is represented, but are different in opinion. Some followers may have a more conservative belief, while others a more contemporary in their faith, but could be following the same religion within the same community of believers.
How do they apply to you?
I am not religious, but I have faith - faith that there is a greater power, and something beyond death, but I don’t follow any specific religion, because I don’t believe that anybody out there has it, for lack of a better phrase, spot on.
At 10/22/05 03:57 AM, Velocitom wrote: I was born and raised christian, I never went to church or practiced anything besides the holidays. But recently I have looked into other religions and I found that agnosticy is a more suitable and realistic religion. Because we as humans will never truly know, so the best we can do is try and be what we think is a good person.
Just curious, but was it I who introduced Agnosticism to you? Because I had a thread once, and also posted some of my beleifs a few times around. I remember I had a few people tell me that my stories and opinions helped them understand and side with some of my beleifs. Just curious if you were one of them? : )
Through my life i've believed in a number of religious beliefs (based on how i was raised. I started off Catholic but that quickly changed to Episcipalian (dunno how to spell it), but when i changed schools my Mom became a Quaker (because she learned so much about it cause the new school was a quaker school, so she decided to convert), I didnt really want to be a quaker so i became a Buddhist. I do believe in what Buddhists believe i just dont practice Buddhism to its fullest extent. One of my goals from last year was to become a better Buddhist which i am still trying to do. I'd like to join this Club with the hopes of talking to other Buddhists and learning about different religions...
At 10/22/05 07:35 PM, Xiivi wrote: Debates are always fun, but please not this isn't all about arguing,
I realize that, what I meant to say is that arguing is what got me started in debate.
I have found it must easier to change my religion, yet my faith in things has remained rigid.
Really? I have found that faith is a much easier thing to change because faith is something you believe in, and that can change in a mere moment. While religion is much more difficult because its who you are, your religion is based around your life style and at the same time your life is based around your religion. Changing your religion is almost like changing your life, while changing your faith is changing your opinion.
I think that your faith is what lasts your entire life, and that is changes ever slowly. Whilst I believe that religion changes to fit the beliefs you hold and is more dynamic than static.
It seems we almost have an opposite view, I believe that faith is your view on things and in a sence your opinion. And religion is your life style, even if you dont know it your life style is probobly somehow based around your religion.
so I don't worry about death just yet.
I have a similar belief also, people get so worried about whats going to happen after death (which I sometimes do) that they become almost not human by how they live. They do things that they think will help them in the future instead of doing what will help them now, and I believe that the future may come, but the present is now and that is what is most important.
We're really contrasting on these points, which is why I proposed this as the first topic for the club.
Yes, I dont think we will be the only ones that have differing opinions on this subject.
At 10/22/05 07:56 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: Just curious, but was it I who introduced Agnosticism to you?
Yes you where, at the time I didnt even consider the belief of what agnosticism offers. Mainly because I grew up in a non-religous area so there werent many options for me to choose. And the reason I think agnostic is so popular is because its a real easy thing to understand. Instead of knowing what will happen, just go on your daily life style and do what you think is right, because in the end its all about what you consider right and wrong.
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
At 10/22/05 08:13 PM, Velocitom wrote: Yes you where, at the time I didnt even consider the belief of what agnosticism offers. Mainly because I grew up in a non-religous area so there werent many options for me to choose. And the reason I think agnostic is so popular is because its a real easy thing to understand. Instead of knowing what will happen, just go on your daily life style and do what you think is right, because in the end its all about what you consider right and wrong.
You know what, that is the simplist and easiest way to put:
"Instead of knowing what will happen, just go on your daily life style and do what you think is right, because in the end its all about what you consider right and wrong."
I really like that, because in a sense, no one has the 'right' to say what is in fact right, or wrong. We only have norms, trends, hostory and tradition... but instead we should depend more on our personal beleifs and mores - not that the others aren't important to some extent.
I'd like to join. I am muslim.
As for the matter of Faith and Religion, I think that they are intertwined. I believe you must have faith to uphold your religion, and that religion must be conjoined with faith. However faith does not strictly pertain to religion, you can have faith about anything that is or is not religious...
I'm highly interested in joining.
Basic Reason for Joining/ My Current Religion
Currently, I'm experiencing a lack of religion. This is not to say I'm an atheist, because I do not believe in not believing in God. Nor for that matter do I believe in any put forth religion that I know. However, through discussion (which I hope will be insightful, but not as heated as people get when in a conversation about religion, face-to-face) I hope to possibly discover a "right" religion that will get me out of this agnostic trench.
As far as the differences and similarities between religion and faith, faith is belief in anything. You can have faith in god, faith in yourself to surpass and overcome a hardship. Faith is a sort of hope which can be placed toward any desired feat, interest, hobby, etc. (although more than likely, not consciously). Religion directly refers to the belief in a higher being. The worship of one greater, or more knowledgeable than ones-self. Religion is a means by which to focus your faith, and gain purpose. Typically people rely on faith for support, and to base there values upon that which is morally just and unjust, even though in some situations these values may contradict themselves. However, you can see the direct link between faith and religion. One cannot truly follow a religion without faith, however, one can have faith and not be current in a religion.
Xiivi, I'd appreciate joining this club. Especially considering the fact that I have to study things like this in school, this could be a great refresher for me (or learner).
I am Roman-Catholic, and have been raised that way since I was born. My mother however, is Lutheran, and my sister was also baptized Lutheran - so there was a bit of conflict about what I should become, especially because three of my four grandparents were Lutheran. However, both my sister and I have ended up as Roman-Catholics. I usually attend church every sunday, and prey regularly, due to the fact of Catholic Schools, which have influenced me greatly in my faith.
Regarding the question of "What is the difference between the terms faith and religion", I've always believed them to be semi-intertwined, but at the same time different.
Faith, has always been in my definition, a measure of your belief in God or Gods (if your polythiestic). One would have lots of faith if they believed, or at least acknowledged God's (again, or Gods depending on your beliefs) existance in life.
However, religion itself is more of what the belief really is all about. Let's say this:
Two different people, one polytheistic, one monotheistic, are both very holy, and both worship their Gods or God often.
Both of them have different sets of beliefs, but they believe in them with equal spirit and mind.
The seperation of beliefs therefore, is the definition of Religion. Religions are often clumped together in groups of people who believe the same thing, forming the modern religions we hold today.
I hope this was a good answer.
Anyone else plan on joining? We are obviously still looking for some new members.
Xiivi, what about you? What's your main interpretation of the two words?
At 10/24/05 11:45 PM, Myst_Williams wrote: Anyone else plan on joining? We are obviously still looking for some new members.
I would post more but I am trying to honor the rule that says only 3 posts per page, and for me to sacrifice a post would be if there is multible people I am responding to, and since there is surely other people who are trying to do this also that means that there will be less activity. My idea for this problem is to abolish the 3 post rule, and bring in another one that states try and contain as much in a post as you can.
But the fact that some people on newgrounds are afraid of large paragraphs might have to do with the recent lack of activity.
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
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