Administration's 180 on Immigration

[MoralLibertarian]

Dude...where'd this come from?

I'm deeply skeptical about this. I personally happen to think this is all politics: the Bush Administration wants to make it look like they are actually listening to the conservative base.

What do you all think?

[Thespus]

As soon as the Bush Administration gives Homeland Security the money to make this happen, I'll believe it.

[fahrenheit]

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said his department aims without exception to expel all those who enter the United States illegally.

Since when is this new? Our security has been trying to get rid of illegal immigrants for a while now.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/18/05 10:28 PM, MoralLibertarian wrote: What do you all think?

I'm definitely skeptical, in a way. It's not on par with their attitude on this matter, in the past.

Regardless, any effort to help snuff out illegal immigration is a good one...even if the motive is simple political damage-control.
We'll see how long this lasts, though. If it's something this administration will really start pushing, it'll be a happy day in America.

I know I'll be drinking.
Either way, I mean.

[IllustriousPotentate]

At 10/18/05 10:31 PM, Velocitom wrote: Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said his department aims without exception to expel all those who enter the United States illegally.

Since when is this new? Our security has been trying to get rid of illegal immigrants for a while now.

Come on. That's absurd. You can't ask INS and Homeland Security to catch illegal immigrants and deport them! That's like asking cops to catch criminals!

Seriously, why haven't they already been doing this?

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/18/05 10:48 PM, mofomojo wrote: I've got an idea :
Give the illegal immigrants legal immigration status.
Simple enough, that solves all our problems ...

What a defeatist attitude, some folks seem to have.

They illegally entered our country. They are not innocent men. They've no right to tread our soil, much less work an American job, or pay an American tax, or cast an American vote.
It's a simple matter of rights. Or, in this case, the lack of such rights.

[Memorize]

Sounds like he's trying to do something my friend's mexican parents wanted done long ago.

[Jimsween]

The best way to stop illegal immigration is to get rid of the lottery. Theres room enough for everyone.

[Demosthenez]

At 10/18/05 11:21 PM, mofomojo wrote: Make it so they can stay here legally, so we don't get human rights crises like the abuse of illegal immigrants and the crisis of the loss of jobs to these people.

Millions are willing to risk the border and possible death or deportation every year to come here ILLEGALLY.

Somehting tells me if we opened the borders we wouldnt recieve the same crowd. Something tells me the crowd we recieve trying to enter would be substantially larger.

[fli]

At 10/18/05 10:52 PM, _FLAGG wrote: They illegally entered our country. They are not innocent men. They've no right to tread our soil, much less work an American job, or pay an American tax, or cast an American vote.
It's a simple matter of rights. Or, in this case, the lack of such rights.

And despite this attitude-- the whole "they have no right" and "they-a-took-our-jobs"-- we don't do anything to discourage illegal immigration.

Sure, scorn them as much as possible.
But "capture- releases", minutemen, better borders-- they are just temporary solutions of the problem.

The problem stems from our likings of bigger-better attitude.
Why are strawberries so cheap? Cause illegal immigrants planted them. Cheaply. They grow them. Cheaply. Illegal immigrants harvested them, cheaply. They transport them cheaply, and stock them at Walmart, cheaply. We buy them, cause we like cheap and good.

Now apply my strawberries analogy to everything else.
That's what's happening to the United States.

The most pratical way to fix the problem is the most hurtful to the left winged business oriented person. Pass laws that will cost more to be caught hiring illegal immigrants, than to have them work. Right now, to hire illegal Jose and then be caught with him costs less than to hire regular ol' all-American Joe.

Pay more for the middleman, and thus encouraging more US citizens to choose jobs that mostly illegal immigrants find. Sure, it sounds terrible. But this is something that the United States to balance. They have to choose the less of two evils: pay extra to the hamburger flipper, or face "immigration 'crisis'".

Eh--
I don't see the pratical way done--
so we just resort to the "I hate them illegals" or the "The-a-ruining-our-country" arguments.

Oh wells.

[MoralLibertarian]

At 10/18/05 11:17 PM, Jimsween wrote: The best way to stop illegal immigration is to get rid of the lottery. Theres room enough for everyone.

That would be 15 to 20 million folks who want in the US right now, plus hundreds of thousands more after they find out that we have a brand new "everyone gets in policy."

That's too many people for my liking.

[Toxic-Luck]

About six months ago my fiances father was killed by an illegal immigrant that was drag racing down a 2-lane street. He was hit head-on and killed instantly. She will now not be able to be walked down the aisle by her father. This has made her very sad. There is one thing worse than this. The person he was racing against fled the scene and left his friends to die (the male driver and the female passenger who were both illegal). He returned to the scene after the cops arrived and was questioned by the cops. This kid was also illegal and had no licsence. He lied to the cops about racing with the dead kid. After all this the cops had to let him go even though he should have been convicted of a felony, leaving the scene of an accident and vehicular manslaughter). The kid that died had no licsence and was already given a citation for not having one prior to the accident. Now tell me if you think its fair that people like this should be let loose in our country.

[ReiperX]

I used to be under the impretion that the "Amigra's" <INS> job was to deport illegal immigrants, but their hands are tied by so many rediculous laws that its nor possible. There are areas where they aren't allowed to look, or arrest people because the area is made to attract illegal immigrants to get help. Giving illegal immigrants liscenses like California wanted to pass, not sure if it ever did would also be bad. Illegal immirgant walks into DMV, not the word illegal, walks out with a driver's liscense. Thats like letting a known bank robber walk into your bank to start an account.

I do agree with Fli on this, one of the most effective ways to curb this is attack the reason so many come here illegally, jobs. Punish companies that hire illegal immigrants severely, repeat offenders strip their business liscenses. Deport illegal immigrants, process them, if they are repeat, throw their asses in jail. Put them working hard labor.

But at the same time, make the immigration process easier and quicker. Criminal history check, immunizations <sp>, and make sure they can speak the language, maybe not perfectly but enough where they can actually carry out some form of conversation in english and have an idea of what you are talking about. English isn't that easy of a language to learn, so don't expect perfection, but if someone isn't going to put forth the effort to speak the language, then sorry they don't deserve to be here.

[punisher19848]

It's about goddamn time! Now that he has taken this stance, he can't turn back from it without serious political reprecussions from his right-wing base. I have every faith that he will do it.

Though I do wonder why he waited so long...

[punisher19848]

At 10/18/05 11:21 PM, mofomojo wrote:
Well, let them legally enter the nation. Seriously, most of these people are just seeking better lives, they aren't here to intentionally put Americans out of work.

I don't care what they are after, the fact of the matter is that they are tresspasing on OUR soil. You tresspass on my land, I will kick you off (or worse...).

I say, give them citizen-ship or immigration status. Thats the best way to clean this mess up. I mean, they may have entered the US illegally, but when you've got a serious crisis as a result of these people being here illegally, theres no practical way to completely secure the entire border, theres no practical way to keep all of these people out.

Oh sure, just give them what they want and all is forgiven, right? NO!!! This will just give incentive to more aliens to illegally immigrate to our soil; thus defeating the purpose of even having a border at all.

Make it so they can stay here legally, so we don't get human rights crises like the abuse of illegal immigrants and the crisis of the loss of jobs to these people.

But it's THEIR crisis! Not ours. As far as I'm concerned, they can all go burn in hell.

Because someone is here illegally, does not make them less than human, does it?

What does theirspecies have to do with any thing? I don't care who or what they are; if they didn't come here legally, I don't want them to stick around.

[Jimsween]

At 10/19/05 12:58 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote: That would be 15 to 20 million folks who want in the US right now, plus hundreds of thousands more after they find out that we have a brand new "everyone gets in policy."

That's too many people for my liking.

I doubt it, wheres your sources on this?

And at that, so? Just because you have an irrational fear of immigrants doesn't mean laws should be made to stop them. We had open immigration for years and its what made our country great.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/18/05 11:21 PM, mofomojo wrote:

At 10/18/05 10:52 PM, _FLAGG wrote: What a defeatist attitude, some folks seem to have.
They illegally entered our country. They are not innocent men. They've no right to tread our soil, much less work an American job, or pay an American tax, or cast an American vote.
It's a simple matter of rights. Or, in this case, the lack of such rights.

Well, let them legally enter the nation.

Why? What's a logical reason to do so, short of it being the easiest route available?

Seriously, most of these people are just seeking better lives, they aren't here to intentionally put Americans out of work.

I know that.
And it doesn't matter to me one bit.

Thats the best way to clean this mess up.

You mean the easiest way to clean it up.
I guess we should just stop enforcing laws when it becomes too much trouble to do so.

Make it so they can stay here legally, so we don't get human rights crises like the abuse of illegal immigrants and the crisis of the loss of jobs to these people.

I've got a more practical solution.
How about our government actually knuckle down on American companies that knowingly employ and exploit illegal aliens?
If we take away an illegal immigrant's job, you take away his incentive to come to this country.
Require all employers to make every employee show legal documentation, before hiring. If an employer doesn't have a record for every employees citizenship-status, we'll find and/or imprison him. We need to make the recourse for giving an illegal alien a job three times as strict as it is.

Again...when you strip away the incentive to immigrate, it solves the problem.

Because someone is here illegally, does not make them less than human, does it?

They're not less human...they're just illegal citizens, with no rights to anything outside of their official place of residence.
This isn't a human right's issue. It's a matter of law enforcement.
Or the fucking lack there of, in this instance.

At 10/19/05 12:40 AM, fli wrote:

At 10/18/05 10:52 PM, _FLAGG wrote: They illegally entered our country. They are not innocent men. They've no right to tread our soil, much less work an American job, or pay an American tax, or cast an American vote.

And despite this attitude-- the whole "they have no right" and "they-a-took-our-jobs"-- we don't do anything to discourage illegal immigration.

I agree. American companies that knowingly employee illegal aliens should be fined and/or shut down. Owners of said companies should pay even heftier fines, and maybe serve jail time.
This is how we solve the problem. We can't make citizens of other countries want to stay home. We can, however, make sure that America offers them no incentive whatsoever.

Sure, scorn them as much as possible.
But "capture- releases", minutemen, better borders-- they are just temporary solutions of the problem.

Again, I agree. These things are only temporary band aids. Until we stop companies and corporations from exploiting these illegal aliens by giving them jobs, the problem will never go away.

Pay more for the middleman, and thus encouraging more US citizens to choose jobs that mostly illegal immigrants find. Sure, it sounds terrible.

Doesn't sound terrible at all.
When something is 'the right thing to do'...it's never terrible.
The only people who find the moral, logical thing to do 'terrible' are people who exploit an immoral, illegal, illogical state of society.
And who gives a fuck what people like that think?

so we just resort to the "I hate them illegals" or the "The-a-ruining-our-country" arguments.

Right. Why is it you always start off well, but end up stereotyping and pigeonholing at the end?
You know very well how I feel about this topic. I've said again and again that big business needs to face recourse for knowingly hiring an illegal alien.
It's one of my favorite mantras.

It's simple fucking logic: Take away the incentive of illegal aliens, and your immigration problem is solved.

I'll pay a little more for my goddamn strawberries. I'll pay more for a double cheeseburger. I'll pay more for everything, s'long as I possess the knowledge that illegal immigration has been struck a death blow from which it would never recover.

[LordXanthus]

Seriously, we should feel honored that people want to live here. I don't see what the big deal is about Mexicans coming into this country to do the jobs that no one else wants to do. Honestly, how can people be so upset about inexpensive, hard-working labor?One of the greatest issues here, I would say, is racism. Caucasians are losing their majority status in the United States, and some of them are quite upset about it.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/19/05 04:54 PM, LordXanthus wrote: One of the greatest issues here, I would say, is racism. Caucasians are losing their majority status in the United States, and some of them are quite upset about it.

Oh, yea. That's what it is, you piece of shit: I'm just a filthy, know-nothing, knuckle-dragging, back-woods racist.
In fact, anyone who disagrees with anything a non-white person does: Racist.

*rolls eyes*

I don't give a fuck about their color, ethnicity, culture, creed, background, or social status. I don't give a fuck what the 'ethnic majority' in America is. In fact, you're the first person in this thread to bring up both race, and 'ethnic majorities'.

The simple black and white fact is this: They illegally entered our country.
Who gives a fuck if they work hard? Who cares if they've children back in their homeland?

[Draconias]

At 10/19/05 04:54 PM, LordXanthus wrote: Seriously, we should feel honored that people want to live here. I don't see what the big deal is about Mexicans coming into this country to do the jobs that no one else wants to do. Honestly, how can people be so upset about inexpensive, hard-working labor?One of the greatest issues here, I would say, is racism. Caucasians are losing their majority status in the United States, and some of them are quite upset about it.

You don't seem to get a simple concept related to illegal immigrants:
They don't pay taxes but they still get to use the free healthcare and services our government provides. You are charged $400+ per year for illegal immigrants to stay in this country.

They use all our free services (and especially the strained healthcare system and hospitals, which can't refuse them) but pay little or no taxes whatsoever. Additionally, a majority (70% or so) send the money they earn back to families in their home country, removing a large chunk of cash from our economy (a bad thing over time).

The situation in Mexico (the main source of illegal immigrants) is not terrible, nor is the country overpopulated. In fact, Mexico is suffering from worker shortages at the moment because there are higher paying jobs just next door for illegal immigrants. They may get "paid less" in the US, but not paying taxes make it so we pay more for them to work than an American citizen would cost and they fall into all sorts of major trouble. In many cases, they earn more money post-taxes than a normal American, and in many other cases they create terrible poverty situations (on their own) or join sweat shops that leads to blackmail and encourages crime.

Put simply, illegal residents hurt the US in hundreds of ways and don't help one bit. Any of the arguments for them doing jobs others don't want is BS, and if it was actually true, would only make the case stronger against removing them since exploitation of minorities is not something we want to support.

[LordXanthus]

At 10/19/05 05:05 PM, _FLAGG wrote: At 10/19/05 05:05 PM, _FLAGG wrote: Oh, yea. That's what it is, you piece of shit: I'm just a filthy, know-nothing, knuckle-dragging, back-woods racist.

Glad to see that you admit it, anyway.

The simple black and white fact is this: They illegally entered our country.
Who gives a fuck if they work hard? Who cares if they've children back in their homeland?

Yes, and your beloved European ancestors and their African "friends" were welcomed onto this land mass with open arms, I'm sure. There was absolutely no genocide involved. Furthermore, after the American colonies were peacefully established, and a new nation was formed, consider how many people moved into this nation from other countries. British, French, Indian, Chinese. None of them belong here. Why don't we oust the whole god damned lot of them?

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/19/05 05:15 PM, LordXanthus wrote:

At 10/19/05 05:05 PM, _FLAGG wrote: The simple black and white fact is this: They illegally entered our country.
Who gives a fuck if they work hard? Who cares if they've children back in their homeland?

Yes, and your beloved European ancestors and their African "friends" were welcomed onto this land mass with open arms, I'm sure.

First off, my ancestors aren't 'beloved'.
Get over yourself.

And no one said America wasn't formed by Imperialism...because it was.
It's too bad, though, that you can't compare imperialism to illegal immigration.
Unless, of course, you infer that illegal aliens seek to take over our country?

[LordXanthus]

At 10/19/05 05:55 PM, _FLAGG wrote: First off, my ancestors aren't 'beloved'.
Get over yourself.

And no one said America wasn't formed by Imperialism...because it was.
It's too bad, though, that you can't compare imperialism to illegal immigration.
Unless, of course, you infer that illegal aliens seek to take over our country?

No, of course they're not trying to take over the country. I sincerely doubt, at least, that they would kill over half of us and leave the survivors on reservations. I was just pointing out that your roots are no better, so there's no point in putting the lid on the melting pot now. This mixture isn't going to get any worse from a few new ingredients.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/19/05 06:02 PM, LordXanthus wrote: I was just pointing out that your roots are no better, so there's no point in putting the lid on the melting pot now.

I don't want to stifle legal immigration.
Legal immigration helped fashion America into what it is now.
Not only do I support, I condone and encourage legal immigration.

I just don't support criminals who've no right to live here, however.

[smith916]

America doesn't want imigrants entering the country without going through checks for the following reasons:

- Keep diseased imigrants out of the country for the safty of other americans
- make sure that only imigrants with non-criminal records can enter america
- make sure the imigration has nothing to do with selling dangerous and illegal drugs

It's for their safty that imigrants must enter legally. You dont want to give car-gun rights to an imigrant who entered without being checked who has a criminal record.

[LordXanthus]

At 10/19/05 06:11 PM, _FLAGG wrote: I don't want to stifle legal immigration.
Legal immigration helped fashion America into what it is now.
Not only do I support, I condone and encourage legal immigration.

I just don't support criminals who've no right to live here, however.

Legal immigration is nothing more than a pile of unnecessary paper filing. Most peoples' ancestors didn't have to deal with any of that garbage to enter the country. If they serve a purpose, as opposed to some of the legal populace who have very little to contribute other than filling the welfare rosters, then they have every right to live here, I should think.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/19/05 06:19 PM, LordXanthus wrote: Legal immigration is nothing more than a pile of unnecessary paper filing.

hahaha.
So, let me say this out loud, to show your true ideals to everyone reading this thread:
You support illegal immigration, but are oppossed to legal immigration?

That's fucking gold.

Most peoples' ancestors didn't have to deal with any of that garbage to enter the country.

So?

If they serve a purpose, as opposed to some of the legal populace who have very little to contribute other than filling the welfare rosters, then they have every right to live here, I should think.

Well, the law of most nations disagrees with you.
As does common sense.

If they'd just enter legally, all would be well.
And if they don't enter legally?
Well, my good friend 'The Law' said that we'd hunt them down and deport their asses.

On top of that, my government needs to start punishing business owners who give incentive to undocumented aliens.

This problem wouldn't even be that hard to snuff out, if we cracked down on the companies and corporations who give jobs to illegals.

[LordXanthus]

At 10/19/05 06:24 PM, _FLAGG wrote: hahaha.
So, let me say this out loud, to show your true ideals to everyone reading this thread:
You support illegal immigration, but are oppossed to legal immigration?

That's fucking gold.

Now you're just taking my words out of context. I am not opposed to legal immigration; I am opposed to the mountain of red tape people must endure to legally immigrate.

Most peoples' ancestors didn't have to deal with any of that garbage to enter the country.

So?

So why should anyone have to bother with that much of a hassle?

Well, the law of most nations disagrees with you.
As does common sense.

There are many different interpretations of "common sense."

If they'd just enter legally, all would be well.
And if they don't enter legally?
Well, my good friend 'The Law' said that we'd hunt them down and deport their asses.

I don't see why you can't just have some degree of sympathy. You were born here! You've been living the good life all this time, with no care for the plight of others. Have you any idea how difficult it is to enter the country legally? Most are turned away, and you expect them to lay down and die after this? I should hope not.

On top of that, my government needs to start punishing business owners who give incentive to undocumented aliens.

This problem wouldn't even be that hard to snuff out, if we cracked down on the companies and corporations who give jobs to illegals.

I don't want to sound like a conservative, but when you start attacking American business, it can be disastrous to the American economy. Do you really want these jobs handled at thirty dollars an hour, while only half of the work gets done, or would you prefer to see real workers getting the job done for pennies on the dollar? Think about it.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 10/19/05 06:36 PM, LordXanthus wrote:

At 10/19/05 06:24 PM, _FLAGG wrote:

Now you're just taking my words out of context. I am not opposed to legal immigration; I am opposed to the mountain of red tape people must endure to legally immigrate.

Emigrating shouldn't be easy, man.

So?

So why should anyone have to bother with that much of a hassle?

Because we're not living in the eighteen hundreds.
It's a safety issue. It's a health issue. It's a law and order issue.

I don't see why you can't just have some degree of sympathy.

I have loads of sympathy...for legal immigrants.

Most are turned away, and you expect them to lay down and die after this? I should hope not.

I expect them to keep trying until they succeed.

On top of that, my government needs to start punishing business owners who give incentive to undocumented aliens.
This problem wouldn't even be that hard to snuff out, if we cracked down on the companies and corporations who give jobs to illegals.

I don't want to sound like a conservative, but when you start attacking American business, it can be disastrous to the American economy.

Pffft. Those businesses are breaking the law. I will not forego justice, and look the other way...all so Sam Walton jr can make more profit by not hiring Americans.

Do you really want these jobs handled at thirty dollars an hour, while only half of the work gets done, or would you prefer to see real workers getting the job done for pennies on the dollar? Think about it.

Oh, so you support the exploitation of immigrants?
To use your own disgusting, bleeding-heart soaked words: Have some sympathy!

If they entered legally, then no one would be able to exploit them.

[LordXanthus]

At 10/19/05 07:21 PM, _FLAGG wrote:
Emigrating shouldn't be easy, man.

I don't see why not.

It's a safety issue. It's a health issue. It's a law and order issue.

If illegal immigrants are well hidden enough that we have to search for them, then none of that really applies.

I have loads of sympathy...for legal immigrants.

Exactly. Why is it so hard for you to care about others without being hampered by politics?

I expect them to keep trying until they succeed.

That's what I expect them to do, as well. I don't see a reason to hold it against them.

Pffft. Those businesses are breaking the law. I will not forego justice, and look the other way...all so Sam Walton jr can make more profit by not hiring Americans.

You're rather narrow-minded if your interpretation of justice is based solely off of what your government tells you. Still, I suppose it actually would be nice if Walton and friends had less money to throw at politicians.

Oh, so you support the exploitation of immigrants?
To use your own disgusting, bleeding-heart soaked words: Have some sympathy!
If they entered legally, then no one would be able to exploit them.

Those exploited immigrants are living arguably better lives here. Besides, my sympathy only goes so far. I wouldn't want them here, either, if they didn't have anything useful to contribute. It's more humane than letting them rot away in third-world villages.