At 10/2/05 04:31 PM, jlwelch wrote: Amen to that. I wonder how much more immorality God can take before he decides to smite us all like Soddom and Gemmorrah (probably misspelled).
Sodom and Gamorrah wasn't about homosexuality. It was about the attempted rape of two angels ending in the destruction of a city. Lot even offered his daughters to be raped by the Sodomites. It isn't a morality issue. There were already plenty of morality issues going on. If anything, it was against homosexual rape, which is just as bad as heterosexual in God's eyes.
At 9/29/05 10:56 PM, MoofinMan wrote: I know this a common topic, but since I don't come on here much, what the hell.
Gay marriage do you think it should be legal or illegal to me personally illegal but if you want to here my side just ask me but first I want to hear what everyone else says and thinks about it.
illegal!
first off men with men is just wrong!
women with women cant be hot aslong as they are bi...
but in no way should they be allowed to marrie.... i dont want my son to become a damn homosexual because his entire school is raised by homosexual couples.... i mean imagin a pink school with pink rooms and AHHHH
short answer, no
At 10/2/05 05:32 PM, Gandalf_the_Grey wrote: i dont want my son to become a damn homosexual because his entire school is raised by homosexual couples
Your ignorance astounds me, you cannot simply become gay. You are born gay.
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
At 10/2/05 05:46 PM, Velocitom wrote:At 10/2/05 05:32 PM, Gandalf_the_Grey wrote:Your ignorance astounds me, you cannot simply become gay. You are born gay.
Actually it is you who is ignorant. Johnny Howard and Scott Turner are both students who went to my high school who DID turn gay. Their girlfriends, back before they were gay, confirm that they were once straight, but during senior year they started taking it from the back.
At 10/2/05 05:49 PM, jlwelch wrote: Actually it is you who is ignorant. Johnny Howard and Scott Turner are both students who went to my high school who DID turn gay. Their girlfriends, back before they were gay, confirm that they were once straight, but during senior year they started taking it from the back.
? Isnt it more likely that they are bisexual, and went out with girls. But then started going out with each other?
Please think before you speak.
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
At 10/2/05 05:49 PM, jlwelch wrote: Actually it is you who is ignorant. Johnny Howard and Scott Turner are both students who went to my high school who DID turn gay. Their girlfriends, back before they were gay, confirm that they were once straight, but during senior year they started taking it from the back.
Have you ever heard of exteme denial? How about bisexuality? I'll give you reasoning for both scenarios.
Denial: They went out with girls throughout highschool because of society's expectations/ parental expectations and finally, they decided that senior year was going to be the year they went against society and finally acted out how they felt. This is assuming they couldn't get it up when they were with girls.
Bisexual: This is assuming they could get it up while they were with girls. They like to double dip. It's just that simple. And they didn't realize they were bisexual until a crazy party where they got drunk and enjoyed one another.
At 10/2/05 05:52 PM, Velocitom wrote:At 10/2/05 05:49 PM, jlwelch wrote:? Isnt it more likely that they are bisexual, and went out with girls. But then started going out with each other?
Please think before you speak.
No, they openly admit to being homosexual, I have known them. I do not believe that people are somehow born gay, but rather make that choice as these two students prove as counterexamples to the whole born-gay theory.
At 10/2/05 06:01 PM, jlwelch wrote: No, they openly admit to being homosexual, I have known them. I do not believe that people are somehow born gay, but rather make that choice as these two students prove as counterexamples to the whole born-gay theory.
So you know for a fact they were having sexual relations with those girls, and where thinking of the girls, but then because they wanted to, suddenly disliked and became repulsed by the thought of sexual relations with woman in general?
That is so much bullshit. . .
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
Just because you do not understand or were not there when they talked about it does not make it bullshit. They did go through a lot of confusion and asked the same question you just did, but in the end they found themselves disliking what they previously enjoyed. In fact, Johnny once claimed that his psycologist told him "every man comes to a point in his life where he questions his own sexuality".
I knew these two and talked to them frequently as I was concerned that they were going to turn exactly the way they did, and I can tell you they were sincere and genuine about turning gay.
Furthermore, there is no conclusive evidence that I have ever seen that would prove the existance of a "gay gene" or any other such alteration that would make them gay at birth. Birth is a choice and if you wish to say it is gay at birth present me with scientific evidence and an explanation for how Johnny and Scott genuinely believe they have become gay. I think it is important that we understand the material we are debating.
At 10/2/05 06:20 PM, jlwelch wrote: Just because you do not understand or were not there when they talked about it does not make it bullshit.
Read exactly what I said and tell me that isnt bullshit.
They did go through a lot of confusion and asked the same question you just did, but in the end they found themselves disliking what they previously enjoyed.
So your telling me, that they once had a boner for women and were repulsed by the thought of having a boner for men, but then all of a sudden had a boner for men and then where repulsed by the thought of having a boner for women.
In fact, Johnny once claimed that his psycologist told him "every man comes to a point in his life where he questions his own sexuality".
Of course, everyman questions their own sexuality because they are afraid they if they like guys they are gay, most do not consider the option of bisexual.
Furthermore, there is no conclusive evidence that I have ever seen that would prove the existance of a "gay gene"
Show me the existence of a straight gene.
or any other such alteration that would make them gay at birth. Birth is a choice and if you wish to say it is gay at birth present me with scientific evidence and an explanation for how Johnny and Scott genuinely believe they have become gay. I think it is important that we understand the material we are debating.
Science has only gone so far, on this topic the only thing scientists know is that gay guys have been gay all of their life (or realised they where gay before straight) and vice versa for straight guys.
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
At 10/2/05 06:27 PM, Velocitom wrote:At 10/2/05 06:20 PM, jlwelch wrote:Read exactly what I said and tell me that isnt bullshit.
Ok, it is not bullshit. I knew them and spoke with them in a failed effort to keep them from going pink, but they were very open to certain people about their sexuality (despite the embarrassment) and I can tell you for a fact that everything I have said about those two is a fact.
So your telling me, that they once had a boner for women and were repulsed by the thought of having a boner for men, but then all of a sudden had a boner for men and then where repulsed by the thought of having a boner for women.
It was not "all of a sudden" it happened over a few weeks. And yes, if you knew those two at parties when they were straight you would agree that they were straight. And after having serious conversations with them, as they trusted me for some reason, I can tell you they did change.
Science has only gone so far, on this topic the only thing scientists know is that gay guys have been gay all of their life (or realised they where gay before straight) and vice versa for straight guys.
Very well, I can accept the lack of scientific understanding on both sides as a good point. But it is presumptuous to say that "gay guys have been gay all of their life ... and vise versa for straight guys."
Long story short, straight men turn gay all the time after going to prison (it is an age old story). However, I do not believe that jail is the only enviornment where this can happen and I see absolutely no reason why Johnny and Scott would lie about turning gay. Thus, by observation, I would have to conclude that it is a choice.
Ok, I do agree on some point that someone can turn gay. But it would have to be under serious circumstances, unless the boys were going through some high trama situations, I still doupt they became gay for little to no reason.
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
At 10/2/05 06:55 PM, jlwelch wrote: Ok, it is not bullshit. I knew them and spoke with them in a failed effort to keep them from going pink, but they were very open to certain people about their sexuality (despite the embarrassment) and I can tell you for a fact that everything I have said about those two is a fact.
Then they're just confused. I can tell you for a fact that I've been straight all my life. I have not had homosexual thoughts and I have never been attracted to a man. This was not a choice. I don't have any other option because I am straight. I have been my entire life and I cannot possibly enjoy being with a guy.
It was not "all of a sudden" it happened over a few weeks. And yes, if you knew those two at parties when they were straight you would agree that they were straight. And after having serious conversations with them, as they trusted me for some reason, I can tell you they did change.
I can name a few guys that I know are gay that, if you didn't know them, could pass as straight. Does this mean they actually enjoy being with a woman? No. It means that they can act really well.
Very well, I can accept the lack of scientific understanding on both sides as a good point. But it is presumptuous to say that "gay guys have been gay all of their life ... and vise versa for straight guys."
The only reason that "gay guys have been gay all of their life" is because we see the evidence in nature. There are gay animals and I don't think they make a conscious choice (since it's proven that they aren't conscious of themselves). It's all instinct and attraction. Different people have different attractions and just because we can't pinpoint the gene, it doesn't mean that it's any less proven.
Long story short, straight men turn gay all the time after going to prison (it is an age old story). However, I do not believe that jail is the only enviornment where this can happen and I see absolutely no reason why Johnny and Scott would lie about turning gay. Thus, by observation, I would have to conclude that it is a choice.
They don't "turn" gay. It's straight men making do. They commit homosexual acts, but they aren't homosexual. When you don't have those special visits from women, you don't have anything else to turn to, so you fuck a guy. I guarantee you that when a guy gets out of prison and has had homosexual encounters, he goes straight to a woman. Any woman. I don't think there's been a single study based on this topic and I'm not asking for one, but it's common sense. It's like when your favorite flavour of ice cream isn't available but you REALLY want some ice cream so you choose the flavour that isn't as good but it'll get you by before the ice cream truck comes around the next time.
Ok. So at one time, Johnny and Scott knew they hated the cock as opposed to pussy (because they screwed a guy before or had the option) and then they tried it again and decided they liked it? Unless that happened, I can't say that there's any conclusive evidence that your friends "turned" gay.
At 10/2/05 06:55 PM, jlwelch wrote: It was not "all of a sudden" it happened over a few weeks. And yes, if you knew those two at parties when they were straight you would agree that they were straight. And after having serious conversations with them, as they trusted me for some reason, I can tell you they did change.
And how, pray tell me, could you "tell" that they were straight?
They didn't wear tight clothes?
They didnt' talk with a lisp?
They didn't carry Cher CD's?
Anyways. I think that what we've got here is a confusion in the whole "being born gay" or "choosing to be gay" issue. Just because you're not BORN gay (And I personally think it's not very feasible to be born gay, but that's just me) doesn't mean that you VOLUNTARILY turn gay. Like, "Oh, Today I just feel like turning gay". It's not a CHOICE. How can we tell this for a fact? Simple. If it were a choice, NO ONE WOULD BE GAY.
I sincerely doubt that so many people would be willing to sacrifice the acceptance of society, the relationships with their friends & family, the possibility of living a "normal" life, just for the sake of something that they can turn on and off like a light switch.
It's against all forms of logic, simple as that.
Also, once again, keep in mind the difference between legal marriage and religious marriage. If gay marriage were to be legallized, that WOULD NOT mean that the State would force churches to perform gay weddings. It would be a civil contract regarding economical benefits and the such, and giving the union a LEGAL, not MORAL recognition.
The fact that two men could pay their taxes as a society will certainly not bring the Western culture to moral collapse.
At 9/29/05 11:02 PM, -Jose- wrote: I think it should be legal, but called something else. I think gays should have all the other rights as married couples, but i still want it to be called a civil union. I think that marriage is reserved between a man and a woman and is sacred to the church. But legally, yes they should have the right.
I would post my view, but you already typed it up for me.. I am a Christian, and I agree with this 100%.
o.O
Connecticut just passed a Civil Union Law. Now gay couples can become, well, "civilized", or "civily united", or whatever you want to call it.
"Oct. 1 is a tragic day because it's the first day a law goes into effect that states a legislative belief that children don't need both a mom and a dad," said Peter Wolfgang, the director of public policy for the Family Institute of Connecticut
Injured Workers rights were taken away in the 1920's by an insurance company (WCB), it's high time we got them back.
At 10/4/05 12:18 PM, Desert-Drifter wrote: this thread is funny. i truly reveals how many homophobes there are. lol.
We are not homophobes, as a homophobe is someone who is afraid of gays. I am not afraid of homosexuals, but I am afraid of the fact that our country has morally deteriorated to the point where God and scripture cannot even be mentioned in school, society favors that which is abominous in the eyes of God (homosexuality), then seeks to defile the meaning of marraige by allowing divorce and gay marraige.
And just for the record, I am sick of lip service christians seeking to moderate their christian beliefs so they do not have to stray far from the social norm. If you do not recognize the scriptures you are not christian by even the most liberal definition of the word, and God clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination in several passages.
For those so-called christians reading this, set aside all your political biases, your desire to flame me or whatever, and think about this objectively: Do you really think Christ would be pleased with what you see and how you contribute? Oftentimes, the hardest decisions in life are the right ones.
At 10/1/05 02:01 PM, jlwelch wrote: Look, it is impossible to be both gay and christian at the same time, that is my point. God refers to it as an abomination several times in the Bible and it is quite clear that he dispises it. Normally people can distort the scriptures to fit their argument but this is as blantantly clear as it gets!
no, its not imposible and homosexuality is not a choice. im sorry to be so blunt with my rebuttle but homosexuality is natural and is found in nature. but to speak in the terms of which you seem to be so familiar, id like to ask something. the ten commandments, direct orders from our god, say that you should not kill his creations. This is because he loves his creations. It is commonly stated that Jesus Christ loves all of his disciples and those created by god, and he is a forgiving man. It is, to use your terms, as 'blantantly' (properly spelled blatantly) clear as it gets to me that god loves all of his creations. knowing this, why would he create homosexuals? to shun them? to deny them of rights; to banish them and to have them treated as lepers? No. This is not a christian god. This is not the god you and I love. This is a god created by the catholic church to prevent someone questioning their orders (free thinking? no, my son, thats called satanism, communism, facism, being a nazi, terrorism, or just plain being evil in the eyes of the church). I know you wont change your mind. thats part of my proof that this works. its virtually impossible for you to change your mind this late in the game.
http://www.jesus-is-..xuality_is_a_sin.htm
I read the majority of the text on that site, and laughed. not at the site, but at people who beleive it. that, my friend, is propoganda. they took historical facts, and mixed it with the words 'communism', 'nazi', and most often, 'satanism'. The 'satanic' group mentioned is actually a group supporting equality between the male and feminine. that is why they worshipped a god who was 1/2 man, 1/2 woman. not because they were homosexual, but because they cherished the relationship between a woman and man. they cherished it even more than the catholic church.
There are way too many superficial christians out there who seek to be both christian and moderate, but unless you read the scriptures and live accordingly you are not a christian. And please do not call be a "bible thumping idiot" as I am also majoring in biochemistry and on track for honors.
this is obviously your opinion and ill stay away from it. but i would like to say one thing-- stick to the biochemistry, because you'd be no good at being a politician. you are obviously one who learns only when he is told by an administrator to learn, one who will blindly follow his religion's beleifs thinking they are his own until death.
For those of you who are still spouting that homosexuality is not a choice I would like to direct you to the work of Dr. Robert Spitzer of Columbia University:
http://www.conservat..g/article.php?id=506
And to the person who posted before me, I will accept that the site MAY be propaganda to be fair, but that doesn't change the fact that the Bible itself explicitly states "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is abomination" Leviticus 18:22 or perhaps most clearly of all: "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them" Leviticus 20:13.
I do not mean to say that we should go around killing gays, nor do I personally have any hatred for them. However, as a christian, I have a desire to learn and live the truth. If you support, or act as an enabler for, homosexuality and work against the word of God in the Bible you are not a christian plain and simple. I don't mean to be judgemental, but it is not our place to say "gay is ok" when the Lord Almighty states otherwise, and that is why I believe rehabilitation efforts for gays should be undertaken.
Please don't flame me for this as I have no desire to make enemies, I just feel VERY strongly that this needs to be said.
At 10/7/05 11:35 PM, jlwelch wrote: For those of you who are still spouting that homosexuality is not a choice I would like to direct you to the work of Dr. Robert Spitzer of Columbia University:
http://www.conservat..g/article.php?id=506
And to the person who posted before me, I will accept that the site MAY be propaganda to be fair,
What do you mean "may be"?
My god, it's slogan is, "The antidote to the liberal news media."
It's like somebody posting an article from a site whose slogan is "NeoCons suck ass." And expecting it to be objective.
Pssh...
*eye rollie*
At 10/2/05 05:46 PM, Velocitom wrote:At 10/2/05 05:32 PM, Gandalf_the_Grey wrote: i dont want my son to become a damn homosexual because his entire school is raised by homosexual couplesYour ignorance astounds me, you cannot simply become gay. You are born gay.
Born..with a twisted mental state?
Your ignorance astounds me..
F?
At 10/7/05 11:53 PM, fli wrote:At 10/7/05 11:35 PM, jlwelch wrote:
What do you mean "may be"?
My god, it's slogan is, "The antidote to the liberal news media."
It's like somebody posting an article from a site whose slogan is "NeoCons suck ass." And expecting it to be objective.
Just because the news organization has their own little slogan that points out they are right wing does not change or alter the facts they report. However, if you prefer, I will offer you the results of Dr. Robert Spitzer here:
http://www.narth.com/docs/spitzer2.html
Please try to be more objective, look at the facts, and avoid petty attacks on the sources unless you can prove the subject matter itself to be false.
At 10/7/05 11:56 PM, revexe wrote: Born..with a twisted mental state?
Why is it a twisted mental state? Just because they like guys instead of girls they are freaks of nature?
Your ignorance astounds me..
Faith tramples all reason, logic, and common sense.
PM me for a sig.
At 10/7/05 11:56 PM, revexe wrote: Born..with a twisted mental state?
Your ignorance astounds me..
That's surprising since you're the one being ignorant. Ok. You're born with certain instincts, right? You're born with certain reflexes and certain personality traits. How is homosexuality a twisted mental state? It's attraction, plain and simple. I have a few questions for you. Do you like fat chicks or skinny ones? Do you have a foot fetish? Are you the sadist or the masochist? Now, all of these aren't really choices. They're all different kinds of attractions that aren't choices, they're there when you're born, or brought on by certain environmental factors (just like everything else that makes up a person).
So, since you just learned something new, I recommend you write it down so you don't forget it. Or else your ignorance will astound many others.
At 10/8/05 12:08 AM, jlwelch wrote:At 10/7/05 11:53 PM, fli wrote:At 10/7/05 11:35 PM, jlwelch wrote:What do you mean "may be"?Just because the news organization has their own little slogan that points out they are right wing does not change or alter the facts they report. However, if you prefer, I will offer you the results of Dr. Robert Spitzer here:
My god, it's slogan is, "The antidote to the liberal news media."
It's like somebody posting an article from a site whose slogan is "NeoCons suck ass." And expecting it to be objective.
http://www.narth.com/docs/spitzer2.html
Please try to be more objective, look at the facts, and avoid petty attacks on the sources unless you can prove the subject matter itself to be false.
You know,
there is a thing called Scientific Bias-- and good scientists try to avoid that because it ruins their reputation. That is why they do so many things to make sure there aren't scientific tests such as using the double-blind test.
You should be looking at JAMA-- a far more reputable source when it comes to finding the latest studies from scientists.
Oh the irony... The tea kettle saying the pot is fat...
Anyways,
All reputable scientists are not able to create a conclusive fact about homosexuality so far. There have been theories, interesting studies, just everything imaginable... except an answer. Although research has been leaning towards homosexuality being an inate thing-- they can't make it conclusive.
Right now, everything is in the air, and to say that homosexuality either this or that is just wrong.
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