abortion confusion

[icehole-05]

Being a somewhat conservative Christian, I have always been against abortion. However, the more I read into the issue, the more confused I get. For example, about a year or so ago I read about what The Pill actually does. I always knew that it prevented pregnancy, duh, but I didn't know HOW. For those who may not know, what The Pill does is prevents the ovum (egg) from attatching to the wall of the uterus. So fertilization can still occur, but the fertilized egg just won't have the opportunity to grow.
My Christian beliefs tell me that life starts at the exact moment of fertilization and I consider it to be murder to abort the life that has been created in any way, including the use of The Pill or the morning after pill or anything like that.
However, I have recently learned about something that I had never considered before: If fertilization occurs too late after ovulation, then the zygote is naturally aborted and never given the opportunity to grow.
So now I'm back to reforming my opinions and beliefs to accomodate this new angle. *sigh* I hate to reopen the ol' abortion topic can of worms, but I'm looking for some insight here. help me out.

-Thanks

[Thespus]

What you're saying is that if abortion happens naturally, it's ok? I'm not saying that I'm not pro-choice, but here's something to confuse you less (even if it pushes you away from my point of view). I'm not sure if you believe in this or not, but if it happens naturally, it's all according to God's plan and is therefore free of criticism. But people carrying out God's will is wrong, right? There, go back to being pro-life.

[mythdragon]

well if zygote is creted then we can say that new human is giving birth. If you stop it grow (zygote) then you just kill not born human. I hope that I readed your topic right :o. Im after few beers :>

[Thespus]

Ok. I confused it. If people carry out their own will in disregard to what God wants, that's wrong. Ok. All better.

[TheDoctor]

Here's one to really think about:
Christianity accepts abortion if it will save the life of the mother, so for example if a woman had cancer of the uterus it would be acceptable for it to be removed, as abortion would be the by-product, and not the intention.
However, take another situation, if pregnancy occurs in the fallopian tube the woman will die. Therefore it is acceptable to remove the tube, as the intention is to extract the tissue causing the problem, not to destroy the foetus. Now here comes the twist, with today's technology a foetus can be removed from the fallopian tube without damaging the mother's child-bearing ability, however this would mean that the intention of the procedure is to terminate the pregnancy, not to remove a part of the anatomy.
Hence it becomes unethical from a Christian viewpoint.

In short, absolutism is a shit basis for moral decisions.

[RedSkunk]

At 9/27/05 04:08 PM, icehole_05 wrote: However, I have recently learned about something that I had never considered before: If fertilization occurs too late after ovulation, then the zygote is naturally aborted and never given the opportunity to grow.

Can happen quite a bit, to my understanding. Often overlooked point. But truthfully, this shouldn't really affect your personal beliefs, if you honestly believe that life is sacred at the instant of fertilization. Afterall, there are natural complications throughout the entire process that results in a lot of miscarriages. It's beside the point.

But, a word of advice. If I was you, I would try to get to the heart of the matter, and figure out what I (err.. you) honestly believe. Saying 'your Christian beliefs' cause you to think one way is a cop out. There are varying positions among Christians (obviously) - and they are equally valid in the scheme of things.

[Jimsween]

It actually happens majority of the time. More than two thirds of the time I believe the zygote fails to attach to the Uterine wall.

[Elfer]

And it's a human at that point, yet they still don't have a funeral. Wacky.

[Thespus]

At 9/27/05 05:26 PM, Elfer wrote: And it's a human at that point, yet they still don't have a funeral. Wacky.

A lot of parents have funerals for children that have been miscarriaged. Although, that's after they know they're pregnant and they wanted to keep the kid.

[icehole-05]

At 9/27/05 06:39 PM, mofomojo wrote: Hrmm..

Why do people care? I mean, injustices and immoral acts are commited all the time by all sorts of people.

It's nothing new or interesting.

So my view on the subject is : Apathy. Let them do whatever the hell they want. It's not as if it concerns me in any way.

we're all in this together dude. its against human (or at least, mine) nature to totally ignore everyone. everybody needs a little help sometimes.

[Memorize]

At 9/27/05 06:39 PM, mofomojo wrote:

Why do people care? I mean, injustices and immoral acts are commited all the time by all sorts of people.

It's because people dont care that those "immoral acts" increase. dur.

[Nitroglys]

according to the law a baby is considered a human after the 1st trimester.( or so im lead to beilive) so me not having a religon seems that the thats that should be the point of no return for aboriton. but im pro-choice any way

[Last-Socratic]

At 9/27/05 04:31 PM, -TheDoctor- wrote: Christianity accepts abortion if it will save the life of the mother, so for example if a woman had cancer of the uterus it would be acceptable for it to be removed, as abortion would be the by-product, and not the intention.

Find that one in the Bible. Oh, and icehole_05, you have just stumbled upon the evidence the Catholics give for not allowing birth control. Their stance on birth control is one of the few things I am glad they hold to despite the Protestant ignorance of the issue.

[klik-klik]

well the way I see it is if the egg is killed naturaly then god wanted it that way and if you kill it you are going to pay the price and the baby gets a free pass to heaven without the whole living in a sinful and imperfect world thing but hey he could be the guy who cures cancer and if you dont belive in heaven or hell then I guess you just took away the joys of a childs life and you cant take that back

[SkyCube]

At 9/27/05 09:34 PM, klik_klik wrote: well the way I see it is if the egg is killed naturaly then god wanted it that way and if you kill it you are going to pay the price and the baby gets a free pass to heaven without the whole living in a sinful and imperfect world thing but hey he could be the guy who cures cancer and if you dont belive in heaven or hell then I guess you just took away the joys of a childs life and you cant take that back

But how do you know abortion isn't part of God's plan? I've seen Christians claim plenty of terrible things are "part of God's plan" before, why not abortion?

[fedgesclock]

this topic neeeds aborting

[mamimifista]

:But how do you know abortion isn't part of God's plan? I've seen Christians claim plenty of terrible things are "part of God's plan" before, why not abortion?:

Because abortion is the murder of an innocent child. And if there is a God why would he want a woman to murder her own child?

[ReiperX]

At 9/28/05 03:08 AM, mamimifista wrote:

But how do you know abortion isn't part of God's plan? I've seen Christians claim plenty of terrible things are "part of God's plan" before, why not abortion?:

Because abortion is the murder of an innocent child. And if there is a God why would he want a woman to murder her own child?

Why would God murder an unborn child?

As I've said a lot of times before, I don't like abortion. But not allowing the simple procedure, then you are potentially ruining someone's entire life. Yes it does terminate one, but allows the other to have a higher quality of life until they are ready for children.

[RedSkunk]

At 9/28/05 03:08 AM, mamimifista wrote: Because abortion is the murder of an innocent child. And if there is a God why would he want a woman to murder her own child?

No, abortion is the aborting of a fetus. If God didn't want us to have abortions, then why did he make it possible?

[EvilBobTheAlmighty]

At 9/28/05 05:30 AM, ReiperX wrote: Why would God murder an unborn child?

Because there is no god.

OH SNAP!

[fli]

At 9/27/05 04:08 PM, icehole_05 wrote: ... The Pill does is prevents the ovum (egg) from attatching to the wall of the uterus. So fertilization can still occur, but the fertilized egg just won't have the opportunity to grow.

From what I've read,
it takes HUGE hurdles for a fertilized egg to occur. There's like three major steps an egg needs to take before fertilization. First it needs to be released, and the pill prevents that. But if it does, then it needs to cling on to the uterus wall. And the pill prevents that. But if it does happen, then it may be fertilized, but cannot simply grow because it can't.

And really,
Doctors are up 50 and 50 on this one. Some docs have said in some articles I've read say that it's abortive (but not abortion) others say it's not (because the egg, though fertilized... isn't growing, because it can't cling on to the uterual wall.)

And that's the argument where I'm leaning...

Anyways,
a link

Contraceptives are good people.
Don't think The Pill and the Morning After Pill is abortion... cause really, it isn't abortion because there is a lack of a fetus (or even a clump of cells) to abort. And even if fertilization occurs, those cells can't grow at all and simply 'slips out' after a while like a period (I'm assuming.) And that's in rare cases. Morning After Pill does not abort. It prevents fertilization.

That's the RU486's job. To abort...

You're a wonderfully pragmatic person topic maker, but
Sheesh... I really had to roll my eyes when you said the pill aborts.
While things may appear logical, it just isn't right.

It's like saying that people who use animal skin condoms for sex are committing beastility (because the close association between an animal, and its hyde.)
*gay eye rollie*

[nosredna]

At 9/29/05 02:16 AM, fli wrote:

At 9/27/05 04:08 PM, icehole_05 wrote: blah

You beat me to it...i was about to say the exact same thing.

[Rogueboys]

well hell everytime i jerk off ur killing millions of little possible kids, does that bother me that im doing mass genocide to my future? nah as a matter of fact sylvia saint look pretty hot right now, but honestly jerking off is in a sense killing the essence of life

[fahrenheit]

At 9/28/05 03:08 AM, mamimifista wrote: Because abortion is the murder of an innocent child. And if there is a God why would he want a woman to murder her own child?

Why would god want a child born into a family where he can never have a warm meal, never have a roof above his head, never know what it is like to open a present on christmas morning?

Tell me what kind of sick god allows a innocent child to live a horrible life instead of not knowing a life at all.

[Altarus]

: However, I have recently learned about something that I had never considered before: If fertilization occurs too late after ovulation, then the zygote is naturally aborted and never given the opportunity to grow.

So now I'm back to reforming my opinions and beliefs to accomodate this new angle. *sigh* I hate to reopen the ol' abortion topic can of worms, but I'm looking for some insight here. help me out.

So what? People die "naturally" all the time. But it's murder to take a life into your own hands and end it. These are wo completely different things.

: Christianity accepts abortion if it will save the life of the mother

It does? I would check your sources on that.

: Tell me what kind of sick god allows a innocent child to live a horrible life instead of not knowing a life at all.

So the infinitely complex subjects of god, right, wrong, good, sick, and innocent are within your realm of understanding? Tell me who you are to judge the Almighty.
And, furthermore, I'm betting the child would have wanted to live. Wouldnt you wanted to have been born? It's not too late to commit suicide you know.

[Redbob86]

Usually in an argument when someone has to say "Who are you to tell me what is right and wrong", usually they are doing something wrong.