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At 8/27/08 11:27 AM, daves234 wrote:

At 8/28/05 12:42 PM, Jizzlebang wrote:

At 8/28/05 12:46 AM, fastbow wrote: I would still be a christian. Christianity makes sense, logically...

you do realise that jesus was elected holy 400 years after he died?

the bible was not made by the goverment dumbfucks

TL;DRTechnically, it was.

Longer VersionAfter Jesus' death, many letters from the apostles and many books began to circulate. Nobody knew which were authentic and which weren't. Many philosophies flew around, also. The differences between them were very important. For example, one major philosophy was that Jesus wasn't divine. The proponent of this philosophy and the followers were persecuted after the formation of an official church until they were no longer a threat to the Roman Church.

When Constantine converted to Christianity and after he issued the Edict of Milan, the high members of society who were Christians (aristocrats, missionaries, apostles, and the Emperor himself) met in a series of councils. Here, they decided which of the hundreds of letters and books to deem authentic and these approved letters and books were put together to form the New Testament to the Jewish Tanakh. The methods by which the Council members deemed the writings authentic are a mystery, as these Councils were extremely exclusive.

More and more meetings took place along the years. In these meetings, the doctrines of Christianity were formed, and this eventually led to the formation of the Catholic (meaning "Universal") Church. Doctrines against those established during these many councils were deemed to be heretical and sinful. Those opposing the church's doctrines were persecuted and killed during various campaigns by the church (far before the Spanish Inquisition). During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church split into the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, and the rest is a bloody and violent history.

But the fact still remains - the earliest Christians followed a different Bible and different doctrines than modern Christians do. The earliest form of Christianity is a lot different than the modern form of Christianity.

At 8/28/05 12:50 AM, inferno90 wrote: ...but what about the BAD things that the church makes children think about? perhaps thats why people are against gays. because someone else told them to.

The church doesn't do that in every part of the country, though. And I don't really think keeping a kid from going to church is going to stop religious influence from seeping into their lives, assuming that if they'd be going to church in the first place, their parents must be pretty religious Christians. I don't think that church really has any power to influence children anymore. It's just not a large enough part of life. However, parents do have power...

...and evolution is not being used in public schools. if it is, the teacher also explains creation.

I'm pretty sure that more or less every public (and most private outside the Bible Belt) school in the country teaches a heavy emphasis on evolution. At my school, before talking about evolution the teacher rolled his eyes and mentioned creationism for a few seconds before moving on to actual science. I'm sure mine's not the only school that does that.

Religion indoctrinates children, which I think is a form of child abuse. People are imprinting a completely false and damaging belief into a child's' brain, which is programmed to accept anything from adults. Children should have the right to choose for themselves without being chained to a sect like Christianity from the earliest of their days. Sure, some escape these chains, but there wouldn't be any chains if there was no indoctrination to start with.

People who contaminate pre-adults minds with something as grotesquely stupid as religion, should be behind bars for the damage they do. Freedom of religion my ass, if it seriously damages society, it should be controlled by the government. If it were up to me, sectarianism would be illegal, to protect people from themselves.

There is no God, relief yourself.

At 8/27/08 12:34 PM, Diederick wrote: Religion indoctrinates children, which I think is a form of child abuse. People are imprinting a completely false and damaging belief into a child's' brain, which is programmed to accept anything from adults. Children should have the right to choose for themselves without being chained to a sect like Christianity from the earliest of their days. Sure, some escape these chains, but there wouldn't be any chains if there was no indoctrination to start with.

People who contaminate pre-adults minds with something as grotesquely stupid as religion, should be behind bars for the damage they do. Freedom of religion my ass, if it seriously damages society, it should be controlled by the government. If it were up to me, sectarianism would be illegal, to protect people from themselves.

There is no God, relief yourself.

LOL. That's an obviously colored perspective of religion.

If you want to define indoctrination as child abuse, then it looks like we're going to have to ban schools, television, and the internet. After all, much of how a child percieves the world is shaped by the opinions of his peers and the media. While you look back now and call Christianity hateful and false, keep in mind that many atheists started out as Christians and came to their own conclusions later on - starting with one belief system in mind does not preclude one from having an open mind, and we're all entitled to our opinions.

As I stated before in the other thread concerning this issue, I believe the biggest reason that these kinds of rules against childhood religious education should not be put into place is that it would necessitate an overextension of the government's power to enforce. Are you going to call child protective services on someone just because they let slip and mention God to their kids? Are you going to put agents in every church to make sure there aren't kids there? How many privacies will we have to sacrifice merely to satisfy the consciences of a few religious skeptics? Religious gatherings are not the place for government to enforce beliefs - the separation of church and state does, and should, go both ways.

At 8/27/08 01:49 PM, dySWN wrote: LOL. That's an obviously colored perspective of religion.

If you want to define indoctrination as child abuse, then it looks like we're going to have to ban schools, television, and the internet. After all, much of how a child percieves the world is shaped by the opinions of his peers and the media. While you look back now and call Christianity hateful and false, keep in mind that many atheists started out as Christians and came to their own conclusions later on - starting with one belief system in mind does not preclude one from having an open mind, and we're all entitled to our opinions.

As I stated before in the other thread concerning this issue, I believe the biggest reason that these kinds of rules against childhood religious education should not be put into place is that it would necessitate an overextension of the government's power to enforce. Are you going to call child protective services on someone just because they let slip and mention God to their kids? Are you going to put agents in every church to make sure there aren't kids there? How many privacies will we have to sacrifice merely to satisfy the consciences of a few religious skeptics? Religious gatherings are not the place for government to enforce beliefs - the separation of church and state does, and should, go both ways.

I think we both know what we mean by indoctrination. Schools educate children, Religion indoctrinates them. The difference is the information being passed onto the child. Schools for instance would teach the children facts, language, stuff like that. Of course children are influenced by everything and everyone around them, but to actively force a religious belief into a child is criminal to say the least. Religion simply keeps people from reaching their human potential, it's a shameful waste. Life is so much more than that cramped little book called the Bible; we should grant children protection from such corroding influences.

I do agree with you that the government would become too nosey for comfort if they would actually have to hear out children in an FBI basement to fish out who has been telling them these fairy tales for adults. I believe it is good to teach children about Christianity, but then equally interest them in the other Abrahamic religions, in Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and other religious cults. Sparking the interest of children is a good thing to do. Telling a child that the Christian God exists and is the only true God is very, very wrong. Do you see the difference?

It is still a constant political battle inside of me with libertarianism on one side and totalitarianism on the other side. Freedom is nice, but very dangerous; and that's breaking my skull. So I can't give a statement on what I think is best concerning government intervention yet, because I simply don't have one.

At 8/28/05 02:28 PM, revexe wrote:

At 8/28/05 01:02 PM, SexyDragons7 wrote: Just to add something, if there is a gd, then why is there so much evil, when he could just turn them all good, or smite them off the planet.

Cause that would kill our learning.

Also, I f there is a god, why wouldd he create earth? All that did was kill thoousands of other things.

Read the book of Genesis. All of that was our fault.

I'm confused about many things in the bible...
1) God created all the animals, then why did he create evil/temptaion? so its not our fault.
2) Adam and Eve gave birth to 2 sons, so how the hell did the populate the earth?
3) Im not entirely sure on this one but i think i remember a story how god asked someone to creat a golden box or something in glory of him, but told the people to carry it somewhere and if anyone touched it they would die, the dropped the box and a man attempted to try and save the box and thus was killed, why would god allow him to die if he was trying to save something that was made for him? he's supposed to be forgiving...
4)We are all apparently children of god, what made jesus so special?

At 8/27/08 05:40 PM, carrotboi wrote: I'm confused about many things in the bible...
1) God created all the animals, then why did he create evil/temptaion? so its not our fault.
2) Adam and Eve gave birth to 2 sons, so how the hell did the populate the earth?
3) Im not entirely sure on this one but i think i remember a story how god asked someone to creat a golden box or something in glory of him, but told the people to carry it somewhere and if anyone touched it they would die, the dropped the box and a man attempted to try and save the box and thus was killed, why would god allow him to die if he was trying to save something that was made for him? he's supposed to be forgiving...
4)We are all apparently children of god, what made jesus so special?

Reading through that book, you'll find many contradictions, many horrific statements, extremely incredible things and really just the ethics and moral values of say, 1600 years ago.

If I were you, I would seriously reconsider debating this stuff if you really have questions like this. You don't want to be sucked into the Jesus cult, trust me, I've been there. Just read the Bible a bit if you're interested, watch debates on the subject; and continue if you feel you can back up your opinions on Christianity.

Like any good debater, you should look at Christianity from both sides. Besides following debates and reading through the Bible, you will really enjoy Richard Dawkins' book "The God Delusion." A true masterpiece, really helpful when you are new to this whole religion thing.

At 8/28/05 12:46 AM, fastbow wrote: I would still be a christian. Christianity makes sense, logically...

LMAO. How? How does it logically make any sense when its based on a 2000 year old book of fables, and completely goes against any science.

At 8/27/08 05:33 PM, Diederick wrote: I think we both know what we mean by indoctrination. Schools educate children, Religion indoctrinates them.

Now we're just talking semantics. Teachers push agendas all the time along with their teaching. The question is more about what is considered indoctrination than the actual issue.

:The difference is the information being passed onto the child. Schools for instance would teach the children facts, language, stuff like that. Of course children are influenced by everything and everyone around them, but to actively force a religious belief into a child is criminal to say the least. Religion simply keeps people from reaching their human potential, it's a shameful waste. Life is so much more than that cramped little book called the Bible; we should grant children protection from such corroding influences.

I do agree with you that the government would become too nosey for comfort if they would actually have to hear out children in an FBI basement to fish out who has been telling them these fairy tales for adults. I believe it is good to teach children about Christianity, but then equally interest them in the other Abrahamic religions, in Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and other religious cults. Sparking the interest of children is a good thing to do. Telling a child that the Christian God exists and is the only true God is very, very wrong. Do you see the difference?

Not really. You're pretty much basing this on your own personal opinions here, not on any concrete evidence. Religion is a double-edged sword - it can be used as a corollary for altruistic activities, or as an excuse for oppression. What really matters in the end is not the religious teachings themselves, but how the individual applies them in his everyday life. It's a matter of self-determination, not indoctrination.

It is still a constant political battle inside of me with libertarianism on one side and totalitarianism on the other side. Freedom is nice, but very dangerous; and that's breaking my skull. So I can't give a statement on what I think is best concerning government intervention yet, because I simply don't have one.

America exists to provide freedoms in spades. If you're looking for more government controls, the EU might suit you better.

All theories of how life started have no true way to explain that they exist or not, christianity, Judaism, Islam, and other religions that have gods cannot necessarily prove that their God exists without somehow summoning their God and showing the God to everyone saying I TOLD YOU SO! And Evolution says that life started with a base of atoms and those atoms after various reactions caused life to be created, but people will ask where did those atoms come from? And how did they get there? And there is no answer to those questions because we have no way of proving anything. Christians have the bible, Jewish people have the Torah, ect. And all of those writings could be fake because all occurrences in them happened thousands of years ago and no way of proving that they really happened. (Though Jesus WAS a real person, he is mentioned in Roman Documents but whether he rose from the dead or not is up for debate)
In truth there are no answers to these questions, so why ask them? Take some advice that my cousin told me "This could all be a dream of some demented three year old but who cares? The food still tastes good."
Meaning don't let theological questions rule your life, God vs Evolution. it doesn't matter.
Don't ask questions that have no answers

At 8/27/08 02:32 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 8/26/08 10:21 PM, NickDaPwner wrote: hardcore "brainwashing" atheists are got to be most fuckin ignorant people on the planet

Irony.
ITS OVER NINE THOUSANNNNDDDDDD.....

hahahahaha you are soo funny using old 4chan memes, man, thats epic, i have to write that down in my "comedy gold" book

At 8/27/08 01:49 PM, dySWN wrote:

keep in mind that many atheists started out as Christians and came to their own conclusions later on

Did you ever why the entire world deconverted from Greek mythology, and not a single person has reconverted?

Didn't you ever find it strange that people who don't hear about your religion strangely don't seem to find God?

Didn't you notice that people DEconvert from religions, but they very rarely convert back once they've become atheist?

Did you ever wonder why usually the smartest people are the least religious?

And did you ever consider that you're not part of "the smartest" and that's why you're religious?

Ah, fun questions which you will push to the back of your mind instantly because you think you're right and just happened to be born in the right place to learn exactly the right religion, the ONLY CORRECT ONE! Phew, you're lucky AND smart!

What a winner!

At 8/28/08 12:14 AM, poxpower wrote: And did you ever consider that you're not part of "the smartest" and that's why you're religious?

Check out the ego on this guy, claiming that only the smartest are athiests. This is why we always end up arguing, you know.

Ah, fun questions which you will push to the back of your mind instantly because you think you're right and just happened to be born in the right place to learn exactly the right religion, the ONLY CORRECT ONE! Phew, you're lucky AND smart!

What a winner!

LOL sarcasm.

In response to the original question:

I never really saw much of a problem with "indoctrinating" your children to be religious or whatnot. I mean, as bloated as this issue has become in the modern days, what really is the problem with a child growing up as a Christian or Muslim simply because their parents taught them so? I mean, is it any worse than teaching your child that he should observe ethnic rituals or having him wear traditional clothing?

So I guess that, as an Agnostic that's practically an Athiest, I still don't see a reason to limit a parent's ability to teach religion to a child.

At 8/28/05 12:46 AM, fastbow wrote: I would still be a christian. Christianity makes sense, logically...

yaaa... you believe god died at the hands of man. makes a lot of sense!

At 8/28/08 04:24 AM, dySWN wrote:

At 8/28/08 12:14 AM, poxpower wrote: And did you ever consider that you're not part of "the smartest" and that's why you're religious?

Check out the ego on this guy, claiming that only the smartest are athiests. This is why we always end up arguing, you know.

That is not a display of ego, it's a fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity _and_intelligence
The FACT is that smarter people tend not to believe that they know God because of some holy book and it's quite obvious from an atheist pov that this would happen

At 8/28/08 05:03 AM, Kasualty wrote:

At 8/28/05 12:46 AM, fastbow wrote: I would still be a christian. Christianity makes sense, logically...

yaaa... you believe god died at the hands of man. makes a lot of sense!

;
Never forget the "logic" of being born from a woman who is pure & untouched...C'mon.
Mary was MARRIED to Joseph...her husband. Husbands & wives never have sex when they're married...they are all too busy waiting to see if they will be the special couple who will be "blessed" with a child without sex -Nod, Nod..wink wink !
Let's not even get into the FACTs of virgin mothers being found all through early civilizations religions. Babylonia, India ,China, Egypt ,Greece & Rome.
Earliest peoples found worshipping "the Earth Mother"
THE LOGIC IS BLINDING...that's the root problem of you logical religious people...your blind as well as stupid.

At 8/28/08 09:04 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Mary was MARRIED to Joseph...her husband.

actually, Mary became pregnant before marrying Joseph.

At 8/28/08 08:34 AM, Earfetish wrote: The FACT is that smarter people tend not to believe that they know God because of some holy book and it's quite obvious from an atheist pov that this would happen

If he had phrased it your way, then he would be right.

But the way he said it made it sound like only smart people are atheists, which is patently false. I know plenty of stupid atheists and brilliant Christians myself - it can go both ways. Of course, when someone is hung up on their own intelligence, it's pretty easy to claim that only smart people believe as they do (or not, as the case may be).

At 8/28/08 12:14 AM, poxpower wrote: Didn't you ever find it strange that people who don't hear about your religion strangely don't seem to find God?

I have heard of many occurances of this.

At 8/28/08 04:52 PM, Centurion-Ryan wrote:

At 8/28/08 12:14 AM, poxpower wrote: Didn't you ever find it strange that people who don't hear about your religion strangely don't seem to find God?

I have heard of many occurances of this.

???

At 8/28/08 04:52 PM, Centurion-Ryan wrote:

At 8/28/08 12:14 AM, poxpower wrote: Didn't you ever find it strange that people who don't hear about your religion strangely don't seem to find God?

I have heard of many occurances of this.

When? Who? Where? Sources/links?

At 8/27/08 02:32 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 8/26/08 10:21 PM, NickDaPwner wrote: hardcore "brainwashing" atheists are got to be most fuckin ignorant people on the planet

Irony.
ITS OVER NINE THOUSANNNNDDDDDD.....

thanks for proving my point, you are a perfect example

Well, having children learn about all relgions from an early age seems like a good idea, but banning them from going to church till 10? That's the parents choice. Instead, have public schools teach children about being accepting of all relgions and teaching them about all the major faiths and beliefs, including atheism, so they have a more open view. We shouldn't stop families for practicing there freedom of relgion however.

At 8/28/08 04:24 AM, dySWN wrote:

Check out the ego on this guy, claiming that only the smartest are athiests. This is why we always end up arguing, you know.

Pick any definition of "smart" that you could possibly want, and you'll find that most of the ones on top are atheist.

Education?
Science creds?
IQ?

Pick whatever you like, we're sitting on top.

Then pick whatever you want for "stupid" and you'll find that almost 100% of them are deeply religious.

Same goes for "deluded.
oh well. Maybe one day we'll find a way to help you guys :o
Guess we can't help those who don't want to help themselves. Meh.

At 8/28/08 06:50 PM, poxpower wrote: Then pick whatever you want for "stupid" and you'll find that almost 100% of them are deeply religious.

Or, you know, they could be wheelchair-bound and incapable of coherant speech or thought.

Same goes for "deluded.

I think that 9/11 conspiracy nuts are a tad more deluded than us.

oh well. Maybe one day we'll find a way to help you guys :o

We want your help.
Religion is a bad thing.

Guess we can't help those who don't want to help themselves. Meh.

Forcing lack of religious belief on someone is your idea of help?

At 8/28/08 06:55 PM, Centurion-Ryan wrote:

Or, you know, they could be wheelchair-bound and incapable of coherant speech or thought.

?
What's that supposed to mean.

I think that 9/11 conspiracy nuts are a tad more deluded than us.

Their stupidity works the same way that yours does.
All the proof against them is just "trickery", and they don't have evidence FOR what they claim, but hey you don't have evidence AGAINST either, right?
Prove that a missile didn't hit the pentagon! Ha! You can't! You're with them!

Same bullshit.
"Oh, that's the devil trying to fool you son, don't listen!!!".

Idiots.

Forcing lack of religious belief on someone is your idea of help?

Yeah, it could probably have saved millions, if not billions of lives if that had been implemented 2000 years ago.
Meh. Like I said, imagine for one instant that you ARE an idiot.
What would you do to convince me you're NOT one?

Because right now, I'm pretty sure nothing I say can convince you because you don't know history, the bible, religious figureheads, religious statistics, fallacies etc. etc. All you know is probably along the lines of "hey I go to church and I'm not a bad person, who's this guy to say that religion is evil??".

At 8/28/08 06:50 PM, poxpower wrote: oh well. Maybe one day we'll find a way to help you guys :o
Guess we can't help those who don't want to help themselves. Meh.

I have an above-average IQ, but I still believe. All of my former high school buddies were either accepted into ivy league schools or found there way into the sciences, and the vast majority of them are rabidly religious. Statistically you may be right, but obviously in this case you're confusing correlation with causation.

So, with all due respect, climb off your high horse.

At 8/28/08 08:30 PM, dySWN wrote: but obviously in this case you're confusing correlation with causation.

Huh, no, and your tall tales of your "brilliant religious friends" won't impress me. We hear that one all the time.
"hey I know a guy who's really religious and he's super-smart!".

Well maybe, like I said, YOU'RE AN IDIOT. What if you were? How would you know they're so smart?
Ha. If they want to convince me they're so smart and religious, they can come here and tell me themselves, until then, I still haven't seen a single theist who was smart about his religiosity.

None.

If you have videos of any, I'd LOVE to see it. But obviously, under the premise that you're an idiot, how would YOU know they're smart?

All pure speculation of course, you might not be an idiot! Who knows?

At 8/28/08 06:32 PM, Saruman200 wrote: Well, having children learn about all relgions from an early age seems like a good idea, but banning them from going to church till 10? That's the parents choice. Instead, have public schools teach children about being accepting of all relgions and teaching them about all the major faiths and beliefs, including atheism, so they have a more open view. We shouldn't stop families for practicing there freedom of relgion however.

a post in this thread that isn't complete ignorance and dumbfuckery??

i must be seeing things