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At 8/8/05 05:30 PM, Lidov wrote: Yes you are, if you are born as a person who doesn't know jesus, you have just a little chance to go to heaven, but if you are born to a jesus lovin' family, the only thing you have to do is to murder no-one.

No. Salvation can only be achieved by the personal acceptance of Jesus as Savior and redeemer of sins. A person born to Christians can attend church regularly, sing in the choir, and be one of the most pious people on earth, but unless they accept Jesus as Savior, they will go to hell. Likewise, a murderer on death row who has killed hundreds of people can accept Jesus and receive heaven.

"It is by faith, not works, ye are saved, lest any man should boast."

Before acting like you can speak as an authority on the religion and how it works, you might want to learn a few basic tenets of it first, rather than relying on myths and misperceptions.

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actually illustrious to catholic dogma good jews and muslims will just go to limbo along with good pagans, and children dead before baptism.

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At 8/8/05 07:23 PM, fenrus1989 wrote: actually illustrious to catholic dogma good jews and muslims will just go to limbo along with good pagans, and children dead before baptism.

Catholicism, perhaps.

I'm referring to a large portion of Protestant Christianity, of which I can speak with authority. If Lidov is referring to just Catholicism, then he should say so, instead of blanketing Christianity in general. If that's the case, then I'll butt out; because I'm not going to pretend to have a knowledge of it.

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At 8/8/05 07:15 PM, -Illustrious- wrote: No. Salvation can only be achieved by the personal acceptance of Jesus as Savior and redeemer of sins. A person born to Christians can attend church regularly, sing in the choir, and be one of the most pious people on earth, but unless they accept Jesus as Savior, they will go to hell. Likewise, a murderer on death row who has killed hundreds of people can accept Jesus and receive heaven.

Not my point, my point is that if you were born to a christian home, you learn about Jesus from the start and normally, accept him, because you were educated that way. If you were born Muslim? You can never hear of jesus, does that mean that you won't go to heaven? If it does, it is an unfair advantage...

"It is by faith, not works, ye are saved, lest any man should boast."

Before acting like you can speak as an authority on the religion and how it works, you might want to learn a few basic tenets of it first, rather than relying on myths and misperceptions.

I think that we went a bit off topic, what we were talking about in the first place is why there are so many punishments... Lets go back there.

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At 8/8/05 03:53 PM, capn_g wrote:

They choose to be fucktards. The rules are fairly well laid out.

First of all, the rules are everything BUT well laid out.
Every fucking person on earth has a different thought on them. That's about as FAR as possible from clear. The fact that you think you have it straight by YOUR interpretation of the bible does nothing to change the fact that 6 billion people probably have 6 billion different interpretations of the "rules".

AND
that's not even the point! So I choose to kill a baby, I deserve to be killed a trillion times over in hell?
Are you insane? Would you do this to a human? This is what is described as "cruel and unusual punishement". Even Saddam is being treated way better than God would treat him, and that's by the most hated nation EVER, filled with assholes.
And they still act better than God.

oops?

OOPS :o

Only if you look at it from a self-serving, egocentric viewpoint.

stuff it, you're self-serving and egocentric like everyone else on earth. Reading the bible doesn't change your fucking genes nor does it change the reality that you do everything to better your future or your present condition, which is the very definition of being self-serving and egocentric.

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Questions for the christians:

Where did the water for the great flood come from?

How do you explain Pangea?

For the young earth people, how do you explain fossil evidence of things older than 6,000 years old <yes I am away Carbon dating is only accurate to a certain age, but it is accurate to more than 6,000 years>?

What happens to someone who never had a chance to be saved, or learn about the word of God?

What happens to those that died when they were too young to realize good vs bad and such?

Just a few questions, I know some have been asked before just wanting some more input.

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At 8/9/05 06:09 AM, ReiperX wrote: Questions for the christians:

It is not only to the christians, it is also for the Jews and the Muslims. I think that the judaism explains that it didn't happen, there is no proof for it to happen, those arejust theories.

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At 8/9/05 06:09 AM, ReiperX wrote: Questions for the christians:

Where did the water for the great flood come from?

actually there is quite a lot of proof that back in the day the black sea had a collosal flood which influenced most middle east flood stories.

How do you explain Pangea?

actually pangea isn't proof yet but why can't christians believe in pangea. it's earth.

For the young earth people, how do you explain fossil evidence of things older than 6,000 years old <yes I am away Carbon dating is only accurate to a certain age, but it is accurate to more than 6,000 years>?

actually carbon dating isn't accurate up to 6000 years old. if you want to find something older then the age of carbon dating your going to have to use rocks for that.

What happens to someone who never had a chance to be saved, or learn about the word of God?

in that unlikely case that this man has never heard the name of jesus christ or the bible then he will go to limbo

What happens to those that died when they were too young to realize good vs bad and such?

limbo

Just a few questions, I know some have been asked before just wanting some more input.

no problem.

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At 8/9/05 04:52 PM, fenrus1989 wrote:

limbo

Heaven. In my christian religion anyway.

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At 8/6/05 11:49 PM, Chronis wrote: Ok i used to be a christian when i was a young lad who did not understand what it meant. a few years ago i began to read the bible to myself and started asking myself why are there so many punishments? why should someone who believes in somthing different get cast to hell by your all loveing god?

When you speak of the name "God" please use an eternal name with it, I find it rather unwise to referr to one who could be anybody. I'm assuming you are speaking of the "Holy" one because the attention of the Christianity--
I don't follow anything that inherents with 'holy'. I don't believe in conversion either, Meaning I believe if one finds if he can correspond to a certain religious,dogma,faith, or any other unconditional belief than he was born something, not made.

The "Holy" bible was made, by prophets almost solemn prophets.
It wasn't made by the "Holy God", Their bible doesn't dignify what is "Good and what is Bad" or "Evil" as they say/ They dignify the way you should live, "Holy God" himselve never lived that way, he sinned. He got punished for it, So I don't see anything pristine about that to me, and followers worship him because the Bible made a very famous inexcusable saying.. "He sacrificed his life for his sins" or "He sacrificed his life for our sins", Meanwhile we weren't the ones sinning, and the 'Devil--Satan' I don't see any definition of himself being Evil as said in the "Holy Bible", It was said he was thrown out of Heaven because he questioned "God's" authority.(Now we're talking) So if that was true, than all of us are evil, including you Topic Maker.
There is a religion called, Satanism that has many, many followers across the universe much that don't believe in a "Holy God", Much who believe the Greek name "Satan" is a way of living & who Question everything they carnality need to, so as you can see, all of the propaganda has reversed as opposed to the "Holy Prophets", The "Holy Prophets" seem a bit hypocritical to me if you ask, and I know definitely there isn't any "Heaven or Hell" neither, There is no Devil, the Devil's are us because we aren't living by the Christian way, and if you think you are.. The seven deadly sins are; Greed, Pride, Envy, Anger, Gluttony, Lust and Sloth.
So, to me, these all seem like natural instincts, which is another reason I don't label myself "Christian", "Catholic", or "Holy". Clearly I'm not, I'm free of thought and obstructions.
So when it comes down to it, The God you say may be yourself.

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first off wesel what the hell are you talking about and which god are you talking about. are you talking about the creator, johavah, yawheh ect. or are you talking about lucifer, satan, asmodai, maphestos, beelzebub

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At 8/9/05 05:31 PM, fenrus1989 wrote: first off wesel what the hell are you talking about and which god are you talking about. are you talking about the creator, johavah, yawheh ect. or are you talking about lucifer, satan, asmodai, maphestos, beelzebub

First of all,
Jehovah*, Yahweh* & Mephisto*
No, I'm not talking about Jehova; that's separated name from "Jesus",
I wasn't talking talking about Yahweh his name didn't appear in my text did it?
Mephisto? I don't even think he's official.
Asmodai? I wasn't talking about Demonology.
I mean fenrus, all of these names are invalid reasons to even think of questioning what I said.

Satan and Lucifer aren't two different stories, almost also with Beelzebub.
All three of these names are profoundly evil adversary of God and humanity.

The "Holy God" as you know him as "Jesus" in the Christian environment,
And in other places you know him as (Saviour, Superior, Emperor, Son, Prince, Good, & or more other early Sources), Was not what I was trying to conceptualize, but somehow in my topic-- There is only an interpreted Jesus, and as you know, there are many interpreted Jesuses, so being an outsider, I wouldn't know where to begin with this "Man" that everyone claims a specific "God",

I was orientally explaining gradually about our natural instincts, verses the Bible's.
I was orientally pointing out the downfall of happiness with everybodies opinion and belief with the Christianity, I was orientally trying to compare "Evil with "Bad'.
Where Satan/Lucifer comes in, the prophets gave Lucifer the reputation of Evil specifically because of his own ways "wrath" as they call it, they think of Lucifer as a restless fallen demon, when he clearly represents "Mans Natural Instincts" and "Carnal Desires", and the "Holy God' says; If you follow the Devil, you go to Hell, I don't know if whether that makes any sense to me or not, but that was something I believed in years and doesn't seem very consistent, yet fair-- Coming from the supposedly God who "made" man equal?
I'm not gonna push on religion too much but the most of what I said you wouldn't of expect to be less brainwashing than it merely is.

And fenrus1989, If you didn't know how to spell any of those names above you could of at least used tetragrammaton.

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At 8/9/05 06:09 AM, ReiperX wrote: Questions for the christians:

Where did the water for the great flood come from?

How do you explain Pangea?

pangea is a theory

For the young earth people, how do you explain fossil evidence of things older than 6,000 years old <yes I am away Carbon dating is only accurate to a certain age, but it is accurate to more than 6,000 years>?

the bible doesnt say how old the eath is not to mention just because stories where told in the bible one after another doesnt mean that one happened right after the other

What happens to someone who never had a chance to be saved, or learn about the word of God?

What happens to those that died when they were too young to realize good vs bad and such?

you are judged by what you know to be wrong. if you honestly dont know its wrong to steal then you are not gonna be judged for that.

Just a few questions, I know some have been asked before just wanting some more input.

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At 8/6/05 11:49 PM, Chronis wrote: Ok i used to be a christian when i was a young lad who did not understand what it meant. a few years ago i began to read the bible to myself and started asking myself why are there so many punishments? why should someone who believes in somthing different get cast to hell by your all loveing god?

I found myself asking the same question but I took a step further and backed outta my Christian status. If the bible is an accurate depiction of what heaven or hell is then I know I will be going to hell and ................ I welcome it. I want no part of a heaven that dissallows people entry based on who a person chooses to love. And really God can be considered the greatest murderer of all time because he destroyed humanity in a fit of rage. The more and more I think about God the more I see him as someone I would like to distance myself from I don't at all see him as a loving and caring indiviual.

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At 8/9/05 06:53 PM, Wessel wrote:

At 8/9/05 05:31 PM, fenrus1989 wrote:

First of all,
Jehovah*, Yahweh* & Mephisto*

don't remind me i suck at spelling

No, I'm not talking about Jehova; that's separated name from "Jesus",

jehova is a seperate name for god thus johaves witnesses or gods witnesses

I wasn't talking talking about Yahweh his name didn't appear in my text did it?

different name for the same creator

Mephisto? I don't even think he's official.

he's supposedly a demon, check it out on wiki

Asmodai? I wasn't talking about Demonology.

alrigth

I mean fenrus, all of these names are invalid reasons to even think of questioning what I said.

what were you questioning

Satan and Lucifer aren't two different stories, almost also with Beelzebub.

true.

All three of these names are profoundly evil adversary of God and humanity.

true

The "Holy God" as you know him as "Jesus" in the Christian environment,

no holy god is the lord my god, the god of abraham, issac and jacob

And in other places you know him as (Saviour, Superior, Emperor, Son, Prince, Good, & or more other early Sources), Was not what I was trying to conceptualize, but somehow in my topic-- There is only an interpreted Jesus, and as you know, there are many interpreted Jesuses, so being an outsider, I wouldn't know where to begin with this "Man" that everyone claims a specific "God",

so your basically saying christ is a man but not the messiah. well thats fine if you believe that, i'm wondering are you jewish or muslim?

I was orientally explaining gradually about our natural instincts, verses the Bible's.
I was orientally pointing out the downfall of happiness with everybodies opinion and belief with the Christianity, I was orientally trying to compare "Evil with "Bad'.

evil and bad are both similar things in nature

Where Satan/Lucifer comes in, the prophets gave Lucifer the reputation of Evil specifically because of his own ways "wrath" as they call it, they think of Lucifer as a restless fallen demon, when he clearly represents "Mans Natural Instincts"

actually lucifer is refered to in various chapters of the bible. some as the king of babylon, others as the morning star and most as the fallen angel

and "Carnal Desires", and the "Holy God' says; If you follow the Devil, you go to Hell, I don't know if whether that makes any sense to me or not, but that was something I believed in years and doesn't seem very consistent, yet fair-- Coming from the supposedly God who "made" man equal?

but mans natural instincs and carnel desires are inexplicadly evil and bad. thats the reason for this. your going against instincs, an animal charicteristic, for the greater good.

I'm not gonna push on religion too much but the most of what I said you wouldn't of expect to be less brainwashing than it merely is.

fine with me your entitled to your own thoughts

And fenrus1989, If you didn't know how to spell any of those names above you could of at least used tetragrammaton.

bad spelling alright

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BTW Pangea was also meant towards young earth believes <there are some out there believe it or not>.
Carbon dating is accurate to around 30,000 years old from the sources i have read also.