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At 9/3/07 09:57 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: You wanna try revising that a little bit so it actually makes some sense.

Not thats its, like you know, bad. It' s just......confusing.

Okay basically what i'm trying to say is we shouldnt be getting worried about other religions b/c if we do then we're getting involved in their religious conflicts. I dont know about the rest of u but i dont want to be tied up in a religious conflict, not to mention we'd be trying to help those who hate us. The only way we'd get respect from them is if we turn to religion which we wont. Therefore there's no point to worry about religious folk.

I just don't understand how people continue to believe in shit that they've never seen, and never will see.

I mean, there is absolutely no evidence of a god WHATSOEVER.

Hey, even though I'm an Athiest, if I ever see some divine figure emerge from the clouds, and starting to talk to the people, drop everything. I don't have to believe in god anymore, he's there. That's it.

But that's not the case, is it? No. God doesn't show up because he's not there.
he's not shy, or any bullshit like that.

I mean people should fucking get real.

At 9/4/07 12:10 AM, Serman wrote: I just don't understand how people continue to believe in shit that they've never seen, and never will see.

I mean, there is absolutely no evidence of a god WHATSOEVER.
Hey, even though I'm an Athiest, if I ever see some divine figure emerge from the clouds, and starting to talk to the people, drop everything. I don't have to believe in god anymore, he's there. That's it.

But that's not the case, is it? No. God doesn't show up because he's not there.
he's not shy, or any bullshit like that.

I mean people should fucking get real.

And besides that they say heaven is supposed to be in the clouds above us, but i've been on an airplane before and had a window seat. When i look out i dont see any angels or god or any of my friends and family that died floating around up there, lol, i dont see nothing but clouds and blue sky.

At 9/3/07 08:59 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/3/07 08:55 PM, GoldOps018 wrote:

We know that but we're talking about how they segregate themselves based on their religion, thats a completely different situation if ur talking apperance and common interest.

How?

Because metal fans don't go to war with rock fans. Wars often start for different reasons, but if there was a religious split between the warring parties, then the war continues indefinitely and everything gets confused. Like Northern Ireland.

I think atheists should go about pointing out major flaws in religion, or at least point out that they're all as wrong as each other and you'd have a different one if you were born in Pakistan (and go to Hell for it); atheism and agnosticism is one of the fastest growing belief systems and we should see it as our duty as human beings to try to argue people down (and our 'arrogance' and 'words' don't even compare to the evils that are being committed in the name of religion, don't see how you can say that).

At 9/4/07 08:27 AM, Earfetish wrote:

At 9/3/07 08:59 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/3/07 08:55 PM, GoldOps018 wrote:

Because metal fans don't go to war with rock fans. Wars often start for different reasons, but if there was a religious split between the warring parties, then the war continues indefinitely and everything gets confused. Like Northern Ireland.

If you haven't notice; A. The Irish would go to war over football, B. Didn't they just agree to a power sharing government, and C. The conflict isn't so much about religion as it is about nationalism with religion wrapped up in it. Much like Bosnian situation.

I think atheists should go about pointing out major flaws in religion, or at least point out that they're all as wrong as each other and you'd have a different one if you were born in Pakistan (and go to Hell for it); atheism and agnosticism is one of the fastest growing belief systems and we should see it as our duty as human beings to try to argue people down (and our 'arrogance' and 'words' don't even compare to the evils that are being committed in the name of religion, don't see how you can say that).

So basically, in essence you just like to be as much as a dick as the Kansas Baptists that like to preach in front of funeral about how God likes the soldiers death.
Because from what I'm getting here, you like to mask any conflict that happens in human history and say that it's religous caused and then thats supposed to make you feel all warm an fuzzy inside.

At 9/4/07 08:34 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: If you haven't notice; A. The Irish would go to war over football, B. Didn't they just agree to a power sharing government, and C. The conflict isn't so much about religion as it is about nationalism with religion wrapped up in it. Much like Bosnian situation.

Yes, and the Protestants throwing stones at Catholic schoolkids are doing it because of religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_
dispute
The whole thing would've been sorted out a whole lot earlier if the two sides weren't segregated by religion.

So basically, in essence you just like to be as much as a dick as the Kansas Baptists that like to preach in front of funeral about how God likes the soldiers death.

No, if atheists went outside funeral services holding 'can the religion, your mum is worm-food' banners then perhaps we would, but I don't see anything atheists have done that is at all comparable. Writing books about 'the God Delusion' and arguing on the internet is a bit different. To an atheist, religion is just a debatable point, like politics.

Because from what I'm getting here, you like to mask any conflict that happens in human history and say that it's religous caused and then thats supposed to make you feel all warm an fuzzy inside.

I didn't say it was religious caused, if you read my post I said:
"Wars often start for different reasons, but if there was a religious split between the warring parties, then the war continues indefinitely and everything gets confused."

Atheists should be argumentative

Written by me, 12/29/06.

What do you mean religion to an atheist is a debatable point? Religion to an atheist doesnt even exist b/c they don't believe in it. It makes more sense if you would've said religion is debatable among agnostics b/c they basically think religious beliefs could be real or not be real.

At 9/4/07 09:02 AM, GoldOps018 wrote: What do you mean religion to an atheist is a debatable point? Religion to an atheist doesnt even exist b/c they don't believe in it. It makes more sense if you would've said religion is debatable among agnostics b/c they basically think religious beliefs could be real or not be real.

I meant, atheists think religion is a fine thing to get in an argument about, or at least, just as good as politics. But we don't, unless we're far away from the people we're arguing with, because religious people are SO TOUCHY about you offending them, not even by saying 'religious people suck cock' but by saying 'you're wrong and here's why'.

Since he's not replying, here's some evidence of the religious being dickish towards atheists and atheists having the balls to not care.

At 9/4/07 08:34 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: Because from what I'm getting here, you like to mask any conflict that happens in human history and say that it's religous caused and then thats supposed to make you feel all warm an fuzzy inside.

If I leveled a charge like that against any religious group, I'd be getting blown up the next day.

At 9/4/07 10:35 AM, fetusdoctor wrote: Are they really? I would love to see a link to the statistics on that, it would give me some hope for humankind.

Also I've never thought of atheism as a "belief system", more as a lack of beliefs.

I said 'one of the', and in Western democracies it is most certainly one of the fastest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_b e_the_fastest_growing_religion
Apparently Islam is only the fastest because they have loads of kids.

At 9/4/07 10:35 AM, fetusdoctor wrote: Also I've never thought of atheism as a "belief system", more as a lack of beliefs.

And you're right, it's not a belief system. Secular Humanism is, I suppose, but atheism is just 'the lack of a belief in God'. Although a religious person, saying that atheism requires faith (which it doesn't), would rearrange that to 'a belief in the lack of God'.

At 9/4/07 08:45 AM, Earfetish wrote:

At 9/4/07 08:34 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

Yes, and the Protestants throwing stones at Catholic schoolkids are doing it because of religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_
dispute

Or, you know, it could be racism that these children have been taught since thier upbringing. Much like the KKK hate for blacks.

The whole thing would've been sorted out a whole lot earlier if the two sides weren't segregated by religion.

Or race, concerning that the Catholics are largely Irish, and the Protestants are largely Unionist and English based. I mean honestly, were talking about a conflict between Irish and English here.

No, if atheists went outside funeral services holding 'can the religion, your mum is worm-food' banners then perhaps we would, but I don't see anything atheists have done that is at all comparable. Writing books about 'the God Delusion' and arguing on the internet is a bit different. To an atheist, religion is just a debatable point, like politics.

Thats nice and all, but the thing is, faith can't be argued like Politics. In politics, you can use real things, treaties, economies, military whatever that needed.
In faith, you argue in what someone believes in, and much like the Flying Spaghetti monster, it can't be proven or unproven due it being what it is...Faith.

I didn't say it was religious caused, if you read my post I said:
"Wars often start for different reasons, but if there was a religious split between the warring parties, then the war continues indefinitely and everything gets confused."

You gotta be shitting me

At 9/4/07 09:17 AM, Earfetish wrote: Since he's not replying, here's some evidence of the religious being dickish towards atheists and atheists having the balls to not care.

You know, I do have shit I need to take care of outside of Newgrounds.

At 9/4/07 08:34 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

If I leveled a charge like that against any religious group, I'd be getting blown up the next day.

Funny, because seeing as how in America we have Athiest getting shot and blown up every other day for thier comments about religion.
Oh wait, they don't. Maybe thast because were not the middle east and we went through a process back in the 18th century called the Enlightenment. You know, where people have rights to bitch and complain about what they want, and where governments seperate the two.

Because, I haven't been saying many religous wars in Canada and the United States recently, or hell even most of civilized Europe. Maybe thats due to something.

The Irish kids aren't being racist, they're segregated due to religion - I could go there as an English Catholic and I'd be on the side of the Catholics. There are loads of Protestants and Catholics who get randomly killed there, and they don't even check their political standings before they do.

At 9/4/07 11:24 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: Because, I haven't been saying many religous wars in Canada and the United States recently, or hell even most of civilized Europe. Maybe thats due to something.

There are quite a few deaths attributed to religion in Europe, mainly pissed off Muslims who hate free speech. And I betcha America wouldn't have gone to Iraq if Iraq was a Christian nation.

At 9/4/07 09:17 AM, Earfetish wrote: Since he's not replying, here's some evidence of the religious being dickish towards atheists and atheists having the balls to not care.

At 9/4/07 08:34 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: Because from what I'm getting here, you like to mask any conflict that happens in human history and say that it's religous caused and then thats supposed to make you feel all warm an fuzzy inside.

If I leveled a charge like that against any religious group, I'd be getting blown up the next day.

Sorry, I'm in college right now and I had a class so I'm doing this from school so replies from me will be scarce until 4pm. Well, I see your point, but still I think it's unethical to confront a religious person about trying to get him to stop believing in his religion unless they try to confront us about joining a religion. I say the only way we should use a confrontation of telling religious people that what they believe in is wrong is in our defense in which they tell us that atheism is wrong. But if they just don't bother us about it then we shouldnt bother them and just learn to respect their religious beliefs.

Like, for examples of religious causing segregation that wouldn't exist without religion, the current civil war in Iraq is fought on Sunni / Shi'ite lines. I totally see why the religious deny the obvious fact that religion causes conflict, and then blame me for imagining it does so I can masturbate over a couple of burnt Bible pages, but it's sooooo obvious that it happens - many many world conflicts are about religion.

and if atheist confronted them about telling them that religion is wrong they'll deny it and refuse to resign their religion. Then the rest of the assholes in their religion will get pissed at us about it and that'll start a whole other religious conflict.

that's the beauty of atheism we never get into any wars because we usually don't go around and randomly tell people their religion is wrong, because simply we don't care... and sometime people feel bad for atheists because "our souls are damned for eternity" but to us it doesn't mean anyhting

Just want to say, I think some of the basic teachings of religion are fine. Don't steal, be good, stone the gays, all that. But it's fucking ridiculous that people still believe the other shit. It's honestly pathetic in my opinion, I don't care if I sound like an asshole. A giant invisible man in the sky snapped and the Earth was created? It's the fucking 21st century, people have become more intelligent. The only reason humans believed all that magic shit was because we didn't have the technology and explanations we do now. People couldn't explain the Sun, so they said it was a god. Couldn't explain lightning, a god did it. Kids can't explain how presents magically appear under the tree, Santa does it. That's right, kids. Some guy that died over a thousand years ago uses deer to fly around Christmas night and gives you presents. We all grow out of that shit, we know it's retarded and fake. There's as much evidence that the Bible is true as the Lord of the Rings or any other fictional book, except the Bible was written thousands of years ago. The fact that we even need to debate this makes me sick.

That said, I don't give a shit if you want to believe in magic, just make sure it doesn't affect other people. Keep it to yourself. I won't preach to you if you don't preach to me.

Also, I don't speak for all Atheists here. Not all of us are assholes like me.

At 9/4/07 04:04 PM, That-Is-Bull wrote: Also, I don't speak for all Atheists here. Not all of us are assholes like me.

I'm an asshole like you. It is very dumb. Harry Potter is about as realistic as the Bible.

At 9/4/07 11:31 AM, Earfetish wrote: The Irish kids aren't being racist, they're segregated due to religion - I could go there as an English Catholic and I'd be on the side of the Catholics. There are loads of Protestants and Catholics who get randomly killed there, and they don't even check their political standings before they do.

No, see in most caes the religion is the case for the political standing. There's a reason the Catholic Church has supported a unified Ireland and thats why Orange Order Members assume, much like Sinn Fien against Anglicans.

At 9/4/07 11:24 AM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

There are quite a few deaths attributed to religion in Europe, mainly pissed off Muslims who hate free speech. And I betcha America wouldn't have gone to Iraq if Iraq was a Christian nation.

How does Iraq being a fucking hellhole of two religous sect make a case for us invading it.

I mean, honestly I've hear the oil stories, I've hear the finish a Bush legacy stories, but this is the first time I've ever heard of, well we just hate Muslims, duh.

At 9/4/07 03:56 PM, SkuggaEld wrote: that's the beauty of atheism we never get into any wars because we usually don't go around and randomly tell people their religion is wrong, because simply we don't care... and sometime people feel bad for atheists because "our souls are damned for eternity" but to us it doesn't mean anyhting

Didn't Stalin purge millions of people out of his country for many reasons, including being active members of an organised religion and then wage a symbolic war against the Orthodox church.

Or what has happened to religous people in China, or hell even to a lesser amount Cuba.

At 9/4/07 05:49 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: No, see in most caes the religion is the case for the political standing. There's a reason the Catholic Church has supported a unified Ireland and thats why Orange Order Members assume, much like Sinn Fien against Anglicans.

I don't think that answers the point, nor do I think that's the reason for the conflict (it's because of ancient British imperialism). If there was no religion then the segregation would be far less. They have walls between Catholic and Protestant areas, because religion is the segregating factor, and they have violence between Catholic and Protestant areas, because of religion. The word 'sectarian' comes from 'sect,' and the problem is religious sects, not political sects.

How does Iraq being a fucking hellhole of two religous sect make a case for us invading it.
I mean, honestly I've hear the oil stories, I've hear the finish a Bush legacy stories, but this is the first time I've ever heard of, well we just hate Muslims, duh.

I didn't say 'we just hate Muslims', but a Christian nation would need a fucking good reason to attack another Christian nation. Because they're different and we can say their beliefs are evil, it's a wee bit easier to attack. Because religion causes segregation.

At 9/4/07 05:52 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: Didn't Stalin purge millions of people out of his country for many reasons, including being active members of an organised religion and then wage a symbolic war against the Orthodox church.

For nationalist reasons, not for atheistic reasons. The State was his religion, and he didn't want religions opposing his power. He didn't do it to establish secularism, he did it to ensure nationalism.

Or what has happened to religous people in China, or hell even to a lesser amount Cuba.

Again, that's to preserve nationalism, not to establish secularism. Communism, or a misunderstanding of Marx's theory of religion (that it is to control the proletariat, opium of the masses, unnecessary in Communism) and Nationalism is more to blame for that than Atheism. Point out a non-communist secular country that persecutes people for religious beliefs.

At 9/4/07 05:49 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: How does Iraq being a fucking hellhole of two religous sect make a case for us invading it.

And is that statement there not an admission that it is religious sectarianism that is causing conflict in Iraq, therefore religion does have the power to cause conflict?

The British Empire was justified in the minds of the empire builders (who were doing it for greed) in that they were spreading Christianity to all these savage lands, they were different and we're right, so it's ok to kill them.

At 9/4/07 06:00 PM, Earfetish wrote:

At 9/4/07 05:49 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

:The word 'sectarian' comes from 'sect,' and the problem is religious sects, not political sects.

But to base it solely on the act of religion is ludacris. Really, religion has just become the symbol for al these things; nationalism, history, fucking genetics into one more easier to understand symbol.

I didn't say 'we just hate Muslims', but a Christian nation would need a fucking good reason to attack another Christian nation. Because they're different and we can say their beliefs are evil, it's a wee bit easier to attack. Because religion causes segregation.

Not really, you've forgotten that we've been attacking Christian nations since my countries inception and them some.

At 9/4/07 05:52 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

For nationalist reasons, not for atheistic reasons. The State was his religion, and he didn't want religions opposing his power. He didn't do it to establish secularism, he did it to ensure nationalism.

So wait, he used a symbol and an act of faith to mask his other intentions and powers, interesting.( Please notice the sarcasm in the post and how I've been trying to lead the entire argument to this point)

Again, that's to preserve nationalism, not to establish secularism. Communism, or a misunderstanding of Marx's theory of religion (that it is to control the proletariat, opium of the masses, unnecessary in Communism) and Nationalism is more to blame for that than Atheism. Point out a non-communist secular country that persecutes people for religious beliefs.

Well, I could point to the history of the UK intolerance to Catholics or secular Germany's drives against the Jews, but that is no longer needed. You, in essence (not the communist part, regardless) answered the basic question I've been trying to lead to.

People use religion, much like political ideologies, to mask thier own power hungry intentions and hopes. It isn't really the relgions problem, jus the people in it.

At 9/4/07 08:21 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: People use religion, much like political ideologies, to mask thier own power hungry intentions and hopes. It isn't really the relgions problem, jus the people in it.

In Communist societies, people weren't desperate to shut down the churches, people weren't shooting the religious, a corrupt elite were. In Northern Ireland, it's the common man. There's a difference between religious wars and communism man. I'm not blaming religion for all wars, again, I'm saying that it contributes to secularisation and that sects fight each other, without an elite telling them to.

You never commented on Sunnis and Shi'ites, either. Is that because one single ideological bastard is telling them to?

I stand by my point. Bringing up what Stalin did has proven nothing. The Russians weren't all doing it, it was just Stalin's men.

And if people use religion, then would there still not be fewer wars if they couldn't?

Loads of people bring up Stalin as a refutement to the point that religion causes strife, but religion still causes strife, just because some strife was non-religious means nothing. Power hungry people might still be evil bastards, but the populace aren't. It's not a refuting argument, mate. That the Troubles in Ireland are ongoing is nothing to do with people being power hungry, it's because there's a massive split based on religion. Power hungry people will have great difficulty organising the people against another group if they're all secular, but it's a piece of piss otherwise. Which is why I said, America wouldn't have invaded Iraq, were they all Christians. And all my points still stand, seriously.

Nazi Germany wasn't secular but was catholic (and they hated atheists), anyway, that's a big ol' myth.

Another few points; sharia law, the Salem Witch Trials (still happens nowadays (link) and that ruined loads of people's lives, I live in a town still recovering), stem cells, suicide bombers (only nationalism and religion have ever convinced people to give up their lives in battle, kamikaze Japanese bombers and all the current suicide bombers we see nowadays), the State of Israel wouldn't exist....

et cetera. It's not just power hungry people, that's apologism. And even if it is, the power hungry need a powerful ideology, which, 75 times out of 100, is religion, and the rest of the time it's nationalism, which is quickly dying and is also mixed up with religion. And so often it's not just the power hungry, it's the populace. Israel / Lebanon. Sunnis / Shi'ites. Protestants / Catholics. 'Stalin' does not save religion.

To finalse my point, Muslim / Jewish violence, IN MANCHESTER, thousands of miles from Israel, is DIRECTLY RELATED to how bad shit is in the Middle East. Nothing to do with people looking for power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_rel igion