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Such as the statement of "God is all powerful" if that is true, then "can God make a rock so big that even he cannot lift it?" If the answer is yes, he cannot lift it and he's not all powerful. If the answer is no, then he cannot make the rock and he's not all powerful. So this proves that it is impossible to be "all powerful" which in turn means that there cannot be a God.

If you want to debate, (or anyone else for that matter) PM, I'm pretty well versed in many of the common arguments

That's actually a really good point. I don't think I can think of a counter-argument. Good thing I never was all that religious in the first place.

Has anyone noticed that this thread doesn't gather many replys and when it does so they come in 2 day bursts?
Also is there any other good questions, like the rock one, to make believers go silent

At 5/27/12 10:04 AM, SpessMarinee wrote: Has anyone noticed that this thread doesn't gather many replys and when it does so they come in 2 day bursts?
Also is there any other good questions, like the rock one, to make believers go silent

Not collecting stamp, is a good one. But that's too common and I found a loop hole myself to defeat the argument. Similar examples http://atheism.about.com/u/ua/atheismtheismagnosticism/Athei smReligonBaldHairColor.htm

That's why I always use evidential arguments because most of my opponents are fanatic believers that never study science deeply. Logical argument is too flawful and the winning tide is easily being turned against me. Sum it all up, I'm not a good debater.

Although the 'Lord, Liar or Lunatic' is excellent in logical and evidential argument. I adore it.

About.com has huge and great examples of logical vs evidential arguments

What always seemed to me like a good paradox as to why the Christian view of the world (at least - pretty sure this would work for Muslims and Jews too) can't make sense is the following:

God is considered to be all knowing. He knows everything that will ever happen and is ever going to happen. This means there is such a thing as fate and predestiny.
However, I am said to have free will as a tenant of the religion, so it is up to me whether or not I make the right choices. This means there is no such thing as fate and predestiny.

That's the logical circlejerk that has always struck me as the most profound that the Christian outlook fails to deal with. I think it's a shame that the argument as to whether or not there is fate is completely nonsensical from an Abrahamic viewpoint, because it's a pretty interesting argument to have and it has probably concerned people since the first religions. It's quite surprising that Christianity failed to deal with this issue in such a flagrant way.

The other thing that I don't like about that 'paradox' is that it implies God creates you and brings you into the Earth, knowing full well what will happen to you in life cos he knows everything, and then when you die an unrepentant atheist, he condemns you to Hell for all eternity, even though he knew in the first fucking place that you'd end up like that. Seems like the most unfair thing possible.

At 6/2/12 07:31 PM, Earfetish wrote: However, I am said to have free will as a tenant of the religion,

*tenet

hey

i'm not entirely sure abt the existence of god, but religion for sure is a farce, or it's outlived it's usefulness if there ever was

btw am a muslim and have severe conflicts of faith over the years which lead to my current state of beliefs

At 1/17/13 06:10 AM, Maverick74 wrote: hey

i'm not entirely sure abt the existence of god, but religion for sure is a farce, or it's outlived it's usefulness if there ever was

btw am a muslim and have severe conflicts of faith over the years which lead to my current state of beliefs

cool, tell us about Islam a bit and why you've had severe conflicts of faith about it, I'm interested

So is this still a thing?

At 1/19/13 02:50 PM, kisame wrote: So is this still a thing?

If so I'm joining.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you were raised by religious parents?

At 1/19/13 11:56 PM, Shade wrote: Just out of curiosity, how many of you were raised by religious parents?

Technically I'm a Christian, and so are my parents, but none of us believes in a god.

At 1/20/13 06:33 AM, Amaranthus wrote:

At 1/19/13 11:56 PM, Shade wrote: Just out of curiosity, how many of you were raised by religious parents?

Technically I'm a Christian, and so are my parents, but none of us believes in a god.

So how are you and your parents technically Christians then? I mean Christianity is a theistic religion, so in order to be a member it requires a belief in the Christian god. I'm guessing you mean you're atheists who follow some of the Christian teachings?

At 1/20/13 08:16 AM, chiefindomer wrote:

At 1/20/13 06:33 AM, Amaranthus wrote:

At 1/19/13 11:56 PM, Shade wrote:

Since we all got christened, youknow with the holy water over your head.

At 1/20/13 08:26 AM, Amaranthus wrote:

At 1/20/13 08:16 AM, chiefindomer wrote:

At 1/20/13 06:33 AM, Amaranthus wrote:

At 1/19/13 11:56 PM, Shade wrote:

Since we all got christened, youknow with the holy water over your head.

Oh, that wouldn't matter though, taking part in a religious ritual doesn't automatically make you a part of that religion as a religion is a belief system. So if your beliefs differ, or in this case you lack those beliefs, you wouldn't actually be part of that belief system. Even if you were a Christian previously, once you lose belief in god you're deconverted.

It's just water. You're not a Christian if you don't believe.

At 1/20/13 10:02 AM, Sense-Offender wrote: It's just water. You're not a Christian if you don't believe.

yeah I used to do the whole church and Sunday school thing as well, shit was obviously super-effective

I'm not going to lie, I'm still religious. I call myself a christian but I've found that all of the various sects of Christianity don't mesh with my personal belief system. Someone literally told me once to "pick a sect or you're going to hell". And that's why I stopped going to church. Could I still join? Because I do find organized religion quite entertaining at times, especially catholics.

At 1/19/13 11:56 PM, Shade wrote: Just out of curiosity, how many of you were raised by religious parents?

Guess I'll share. Both of my parents were "religious" and by that I mean they were both Christians but not the kind of Christians who go to church, say grace at dinner, make their kids read the bible, etc. So basically, religion wasn't a big part in my upbringing. In fact, I only really heard my parents mention it when there was a death in the family and they would say something about that person being in heaven now or if I asked a question about religion.

Around the age of 9-10 I became an atheist, although I didn't realize atheist was the proper term for me until a couple years later when I did some research. At the time I was under the impression that atheists worshiped the devil because that's what other kids had told me, and I'm guessing some of those kids had had that chunk of bullshit shoved into their head by their parents.

I wasn't raised on religion, but my father is a Christian. He was raised Irish Catholic along with his 3 siblings. My mom's parents were Baptist, but she doesn't believe in it. She has a vague sort of new age kind of spirituality, which is cool with me. She's one of the nicest people I've known. She's also a Rei Ki master.

At 1/20/13 10:28 AM, Earfetish wrote: yeah I used to do the whole church and Sunday school thing as well

Man, that must have sucked.

shit was obviously super-effective

lol

At 1/19/13 11:56 PM, Shade wrote: Just out of curiosity, how many of you were raised by religious parents?

I actually did a separate thread about this in General called Growing Up In Your Family. I suggest you take a look at that. You were one who contributed to said thread Shade.

Yeah, I was raised by religious parents. Baptist Christians on both sides, but on my mother's side is Jewish. My family were not practicing Jews, I tried to celebrate Hanukkah though each year though.

At 1/26/13 02:26 PM, The-Great-One wrote:

At 1/19/13 11:56 PM, Shade wrote: Just out of curiosity, how many of you were raised by religious parents?

I actually did a separate thread about this in General called Growing Up In Your Family. I suggest you take a look at that. You were one who contributed to said thread Shade.

Yeah, I was raised by religious parents. Baptist Christians on both sides, but on my mother's side is Jewish. My family were not practicing Jews, I tried to celebrate Hanukkah though each year though.

The reason I asked mostly has to do with the fact that I've noticed many atheist were raised by Christian parents. I don't know why it happens, I've just noticed this tremd.

glad to find this thread. we must protect our precious books that of which the christians are so inclined to burn during their hateful gatherings.

it is funny how the story has it that the jews crucified jesus and he was left in a cave; when in reality it was the romans who crucified jesus because he was a threat to their political authority. it was also unlikely that jesus was put in some cave in which he later rose from the dead. Crucifixion was a method of execution used by the romans to display what they do to people who were a threat to political authority, and they kept the crucified rotting bodies up. so most likely what happened was jesus was nailed at the wrists and ankles, after hours of pain his chest would have collapsed, and the romans would have kept his dead decaying rotting body, along with the crucified bodies of many others, up for display to show to their people how resenting the empire would result.

What do you guys think would happen if the religious were presented with indisputable proof that God wasn't real? Would they still deny it, come to accept that they were wrong, or would they just go crazy and kill themselves? Something I've always thought about.

At 1/29/13 03:00 AM, Cootie wrote: What do you guys think would happen if the religious were presented with indisputable proof that God wasn't real? Would they still deny it, come to accept that they were wrong, or would they just go crazy and kill themselves? Something I've always thought about.

They'd narrow the definition of God. People don't seem to realise that a Christian in the 16th Century would have believed in Adam and Eve and Noah's Flood and the Tower of Babel and all that nonsense, and it was only when these beliefs became untenable that they were discarded. If you said to a historic Christian 'Genesis is just symbolic,' they'd call it blasphemous and would consider you a Heathen. Nowadays, they'd be like, 'well duh, but Jesus still died for your sins.'

So yeah, if you proved that there is no God in the Universe, they'd say he lives outside of space and time. If you said the Universe is one of infinite in a gigantic multiverse, they'd say, 'well who started the multiverse? Must be Jesus' daddy.' If you went back in time and talked to Jesus and they told you he wasn't the son of God, they'd say, 'he's just testing your faith'.

It's like a conspiracy theory - "How come all these people said they saw a plane fly into the Pentagon?" "Cos the illuminati told them to." "How come there's all this evidence that the WTCs fell because planes crashed into them?" "Cos the illuminati planted it." "Why did Al Qaeda confess?" "Cos they're illuminati stooges." There's always an answer.

At 1/28/13 05:24 AM, Shade wrote: The reason I asked mostly has to do with the fact that I've noticed many atheist were raised by Christian parents. I don't know why it happens, I've just noticed this tremd.

So, this is just my humble opinion. I'm not stating this as a fact. I may be taking it a bit too far, bit it's the best explanation I've come up with so far.

The christian religion is a part of the western culture (in a broad sense). And so is the Enlightenment, one of which's contribution was a critical view of christianism, as a movement that sought the truth about the world while clearing up all superstitions and doctrines in the process. Scientific, social, political, and economic revolutions occured through the following centuries; all scientific fields flourished, resolving many questions that until then remained mysteries, which were attributed mainly to god's acts; Individualism and rationalism gained ground, setting people responsible for their own choices, which had to be made based on logical thinking; liberal revolutions, especially the French Revolution, brought about transitions from authoritarian to democratic regimes, where people were (at least in theory) the power holders, driven by free will and liberty, and not monarchs acting (again, allegedly) according to God's will; Capitalism emerged as the modern economic system, the main characteristics of which weren't exactly in accordance with the christian morals (though the protestant ethics were formed as a solution; supposedly whether you have a place in heaven is determined largely by your financial success).

My point is that such changes which deconstructed religious beliefs to such a great extent have probably happened only in the western civilization (if you know of other cases, I'm really interested in knowing about it; it would be a great argument against those who think that these are what make the western culture advanced and "superior" to others); other cultures maintain their tight bond with religious belief - you'll rarely see atheists brought up by parents of other religions. And I think that's why it is mostly christians who become atheists; rational free will and subjection to god don't get along. The main choices are surrendering yourself to god, rejecting him altogether or trying to reconcile the contradictions by maintaining a belief in a higher power and adjusting the moral code so that it makes more sense in the modern world.

Now you'll probably ask me if that's so, then why hasn't the western civilization become an atheist one. I think people still need religion. Believing that something greater than you is watching over you and will provide guidance and support is much more comforting than any stern explanation of how things work and how bad things happen to you for no other reason than they just happen. Choosing between truth and consolation might be the main difference between believers and non believers.

Both of my parents are Atheists. My mom told me that heaven existed to make me feel better about my grandfather's death. Other than that they never even spoke about religion, so I just became an atheist by default and didn't put a lot of thought into it until I was much older.

At 1/20/13 01:08 PM, Shade wrote: I'm not going to lie, I'm still religious. I call myself a christian but I've found that all of the various sects of Christianity don't mesh with my personal belief system.

I don't see why you should continue calling yourself a Christian then. Just say that you're a theist or better yet that you believe in some power, and stop worrying about labels.

At 1/29/13 06:41 PM, DickChick wrote: I don't see why you should continue calling yourself a Christian then. Just say that you're a theist or better yet that you believe in some power, and stop worrying about labels.

Guess you could say Shade is agnostic.