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Patton3
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 11th, 2010 @ 03:16 PM Reply

At 8/11/10 11:58 AM, HumanDisease wrote:
Isaiah 53 says this Messiah will be bruised, beaten, and killed, be rejected by His own people, buried with the rich, and then have His days prolonged (ressurrection).

First of all, Egyptian Book of the Dead. As well, that he would be beaten, rejected, etc. is a rather simple prediction considering the nature of what they were saying the Messiah would be preaching. To address "buried with the rich, and then live his days prolonged", that is enormously vague. As most predictions of the future tend to be, as they can be interpreted as applying to a vast managerie of events.


Daniel 9:24 says the Messiah will come and die for our sins BEFORE the destruction of the 2nd temple (2000 years ago!)

Considering the time frame we're talking about, Daniel had a pretty damn wide margin for error.


Micah 5:2 The Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem.

Ok, that's a bit more specific.


Isaiah 7:14 The Messiah had to be born of a virgin.

But Jesus wasn't. No woman can become pregnant and retain her virginity. The idea that god could simply bypass the, (ahem) physical portion of that process because he is god, is one amongst a book that is littered with very convenient circumstances.


Psalm 22 reveals that the Messiah was to be crucified, peirced through the hands and feet and have his bones all out of joint

I believe I've already addressed crucifixion.


Jesus came according to prophecy right when He had to before the destruction 2nd temple 2000 years ago, and was rejected by Israel, crucified, buried with the rich (which was a rarity for convincted criminals), and then rose from the dead, then the temple was destroyed. The jews have been without a temple now for around 2000 years, and now, 2000 years later, the Gentile world now worships the God of Israel because of this Jesus of Nazareth, the most influential jew in the history of mankind; the most influential man in the history of mankind.

1. Many, many people don't worship him.
2. Every other point in the above I've addressed at one point or another, unless I mistakenly left something out.
3. The accounts of this, the gospels, were written after these events took place; I hope we're at least in agreement there. Couldn't those who wrote the gospels merely have written the story to fit the prophecies? Not to mention inconsistencies and contradictions within the gospels. This point would also apply to several other things you've mentioned, but moving on...


There are hundreds of prophecies in The Bible, this is just one of them that is so powerful, it's undeniable.

Not really.


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sinfulwolf
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 11th, 2010 @ 03:56 PM Reply

Christianity isn't the first belief to have a God come down and impregnate a woman. The Greek Gods did it all the freaking time.

However. Thought some of your guys might like this.

HumanDisease
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 11th, 2010 @ 05:26 PM Reply

At 8/11/10 03:04 PM, Patton3 wrote: No, religion is and has been man's attempt to explain what we don't understand. This creates a "god of the gaps" pattern that we see throughout history. For example, anything beyond the earth's surface was the realm of the gods. Untouchable, celestial, and utterly perfect. The constellations depicted images of gods and their actions, as did even planets themselves represent the major gods (Jupiter for instance). This was a gap in human knowledge that religions very conveniently fulfilled. Yet now we know that the planets are like our own. Orbiting the same sun, made from the same materials. The constellations are just stars, which appear as shapes from our view point on earth. Yet this was claimed to be the declaration of the gods, that the heavens were their own, perfect dwelling. Were this truly a declaration of the gods, it would have been true. In this day and age, anyone that stands upright can tell you that simply is not true, and it has become immutable scientific law. So this wasn't declaration of gods, it was man trying to explain what he didn't know.

The Bible was written by over 40 authors over 3000 years, by kings, prisoners, farmers, tax collectors, warriors, people from all walks of life. There is no motivation for control from a single perspective. In fact the Bible tells rulers to be servants to the people, so if its trying to control anyone, its the people in authority who are told to be subjected to God and treat the people fairly.

The time frame these books were written in, the number of authors, and the fact that it is a religious compendium should by themselves lead you to question their content as far as facts are concerned. As for all of them claiming the same god, that's quite simple: those who claimed inspiration from another god were simply not included. And is it really so surprising that religious persons within Abrahamic religions would claim similar or identical divine inspiration, creation myths, etc?
"God exists outside of time." It's this sort of thing that strikes me as awfully convenient; it's in it's most basic form "He knows everything, he is the explanation for everything" when it's clear 'he' is not. Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge of physics to scientifically approach the idea of a being existing outside of time, yet still creating and interacting with it, but perhaps someone on here does. Moving along...
1. The bible is often incorrect. That only requires open eyes to see.
2. The predictions of the future are often rather vague
3. Many, many other religions claim to know the future. For example, stories similar to Jesus' crucifixion can often be found in one form or another. Even predating Gospels and many other books of the bible. But more on that later.
Once more, that's awfully convenient. And remember when I mentioned earlier texts predating many Christian writings? I think in just a little bit one powerful example would be prudent...

Maybe I'm missing something, but there are 365 1/4 days in a year. Were this a declaration from god, (as the claims/predictions in the bible supposedly are) wouldn't god have known this?
Beyond that, the only other things I can point to off hand are a) extraordinary coincidence, b) they weren't written in the Babylonian captivity and we have the time frame wrong, and c) I don't know.
Option C being something I'm bound to bring up sooner or later. Oh, and this bit also applies to the first part of the bit you wrote below, over rebuilding of Jerusalem.
Let's get at the prophecies related to Jesus as you're arguing from a christian standpoint, and what are you left with when you take Jesus out of Christianity?
Crucifixion was quite a common punishment, often used on dissenters; which by very nature of what Jesus was claimed to be would make him a dissenter. To interpret that such a person would be crucified, would be akin today to saying that a murderer would be given life in prison.
As for him rising from the dead, you may find this interesting:
Written in 1280 b.c., it describes the Egyptian god Horus. Horus was the son of the god Osiris, born unto men of a virgin mother. He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer, Anup later being beheaded. Anup, before preaching and performing miracles, was tempted in the desert while alone, but the Egyptian god of the dead. He then gathered twelve disciples to him, and preached, and performed miracles across the land. He healed the sick, the blind, and cast out demons in the name of god (Osiris), and walked on water. He also raised Asar from the dead. Asar, translated from Egyptian into Hebrew, means Lazarus. He was crucified on a hill, with two other men; 3 days after he died and was buried, two maidens announced that Horus, savior of humanity, had been resurrected.
You can't tell me this doesn't bear startling resemblance to the story of Jesus Christ in the Gospels and retain any sort of integrity.

The Bible is the only book in history that is over 60 books compiled together, written by over 40 different authors over 3000 years, all who claimed inspiration from the same God, who never contradicted Himself, and claimed to know the future.

God exists outside of time, so He knows the future. The Bible is the only religious text in the world that dares to predict the future, and is correct every time. No other book in the world is like it, and no other religion dares to expose themselves with false-predictions. However, The Bible boldly predicts the future, proclaiming that it is the inspired word of God proudly and authoritatively. The Bible is divided into 2 parts; the Old Testament, and the New Testament. The Old Testament was written over 2000 years ago, before the birth of Christ, and foretold His coming in intricate detail.

Isaiah 42:9 God declares "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you." and Isaiah 46:9-10 God says 'I am God and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done'

As I said, since God exists beyond time, He sees the entire timeline and is able to tell us what will happen before it happens. Let's look at some prophecy in Jewish scripture that was written BEFORE Christ by many hundreds of years;

The Book of Daniel was written 500 years before the birth of Jesus. In Chapter 9, Daniel predicts the very day that the Messiah would enter Jerusalem and present himself as king for the first time. The prophecy states that 69 weeks of years (69 x 7 = 483 years) would pass from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah. 3 Since Daniel was written in Babylon during the Jewish captivity after the fall of Jerusalem, this prophecy was based on the Babylonian 360-day calendar. Thus, 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days.

According to records found in the Shushan (Susa) Palace, and confirmed in Nehemiah 2:1, the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was issued by the Persian king, Artaxerxes Longimanus, on March 5, 444 BC. Remarkably, 173,880 days later (adjusting for leap years), on March 30, 33 AD, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey (fulfilling the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9).4 Five days later, Jesus was crucified on a Roman cross just outside Jerusalem. (Actually, the form of his execution and even his last words were foretold hundreds of years earlier in Psalm 22.) Three days later, the New Testament accounts declare that Jesus rose from the dead on Easter Sunday, fulfilling numerous other prophecies of the long-awaited Messiah.

Isaiah 49 The Messiah had to be bring the non-jewish people of the world (Gentiles) to worship the God of Israel

Isaiah 53 says this Messiah will be bruised, beaten, and killed, be rejected by His own people, buried with the rich, and then have His days prolonged (ressurrection).

Daniel 9:24 says the Messiah will come and die for our sins BEFORE the destruction of the 2nd temple (2000 years ago!)

Micah 5:2 The Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem.

Isaiah 7:14 The Messiah had to be born of a virgin.

HumanDisease
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 11th, 2010 @ 05:31 PM Reply

Christianity could not possibly be so, since whom is trying to control whom, for what benefit? The Bible was written by over 40 authors over 3000 years, by kings, prisoners, farmers, tax collectors, warriors, people from all walks of life. There is no motivation for control from a single perspective. In fact the Bible tells rulers to be servants to the people, so if its trying to control anyone, its the people in authority who are told to be subjected to God and treat the people fairly.

Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy, and His disciples who knew Him lost faith in Him when He was crucified. Then after 3 days they became so convinced that He truly did conquer death that they went to their own deaths for that testimony. They would have known if it were true or false if Jesus really did rise from the dead. I think you just have a bias against God and Jesus Christ based on your desire, as stated above, to neglect authority over you. As The Bible says, you did not like to retain the knowledge of God in your thinking because of your lustful desires to disobey the standards of morality of God, so that you could do whatever you wanted to do, just as Satan does.

The Bible is the only book in history that is over 60 books compiled together, written by over 40 different authors over 3000 years, all who claimed inspiration from the same God, who never contradicted Himself, and claimed to know the future.

God exists outside of time, so He knows the future. The Bible is the only religious text in the world that dares to predict the future, and is correct every time. No other book in the world is like it, and no other religion dares to expose themselves with false-predictions. However, The Bible boldly predicts the future, proclaiming that it is the inspired word of God proudly and authoritatively. The Bible is divided into 2 parts; the Old Testament, and the New Testament. The Old Testament was written over 2000 years ago, before the birth of Christ, and foretold His coming in intricate detail.

Isaiah 42:9 God declares "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you." and Isaiah 46:9-10 God says 'I am God and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done'

As I said, since God exists beyond time, He sees the entire timeline and is able to tell us what will happen before it happens. Let's look at some prophecy in Jewish scripture that was written BEFORE Christ by many hundreds of years;

The Book of Daniel was written 500 years before the birth of Jesus. In Chapter 9, Daniel predicts the very day that the Messiah would enter Jerusalem and present himself as king for the first time. The prophecy states that 69 weeks of years (69 x 7 = 483 years) would pass from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah. 3 Since Daniel was written in Babylon during the Jewish captivity after the fall of Jerusalem, this prophecy was based on the Babylonian 360-day calendar. Thus, 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days.

According to records found in the Shushan (Susa) Palace, and confirmed in Nehemiah 2:1, the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was issued by the Persian king, Artaxerxes Longimanus, on March 5, 444 BC. Remarkably, 173,880 days later (adjusting for leap years), on March 30, 33 AD, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey (fulfilling the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9).4 Five days later, Jesus was crucified on a Roman cross just outside Jerusalem. (Actually, the form of his execution and even his last words were foretold hundreds of years earlier in Psalm 22.) Three days later, the New Testament accounts declare that Jesus rose from the dead on Easter Sunday, fulfilling numerous other prophecies of the long-awaited Messiah.

Isaiah 49 The Messiah had to be bring the non-jewish people of the world (Gentiles) to worship the God of Israel

Isaiah 53 says this Messiah will be bruised, beaten, and killed, be rejected by His own people, buried with the rich, and then have His days prolonged (ressurrection).

Daniel 9:24 says the Messiah will come and die for our sins BEFORE the destruction of the 2nd temple (2000 years ago!)

Micah 5:2 The Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem.

Isaiah 7:14 The Messiah had to be born of a virgin.

Psalm 22 reveals that the Messiah was to be crucified, peirced through the hands and feet and have his bones all out of joint

Jesus came according to prophecy right when He had to before the destruction 2nd temple 2000 years ago, and was rejected by Israel, crucified, buried with the rich (which was a rarity for convincted criminals), and then rose from the dead, then the temple was destroyed. The jews have been without a temple now for around 2000 years, and now, 2000 years later, the Gentile world now worships the God of Israel because of this Jesus of Nazareth, the most influential jew in the history of mankind; the most influential man in the history of mankind.

There are hundreds of prophecies in The Bible, this is just one of them that is so powerful, it's undeniable.

The true God is the only God who has interacted in time and space throughout history. Zeus is mythology created at one time, and Allah only introduced himself to Muhammad about 1400 years ago, with no prior revelation. The God of The Bible has been with man since the beginning, and revealed Himself progressively throughout the 4000 year history of Israel, sending dozens of prophets over and over again to confirm his timelessness.

Allah is Satan, and can be demonstrated to be so.
The quran was written 6 centuries after The Bible was completed, and Muslims do not believe in The Bible. The Bible was before the Quran, but Muslims reject it! Islam attempts to make you doubt ALL the revelations of God given to humanity before Muhammad was born. Isn't that convenient? God sent dozens of prophets, each that confirmed the next, and foretold the coming of the Messiah who would die for the sins of the world (Isaiah 53). They said that the Messiah would bring an end to the prophets (Daniel 9:24), bring the final Covenant (Malachi 3:1), and that false prophets would come after the Messiah (Matthew 24:24).

In the New Testament of Jesus Christ, God warned us that Satan the devil would come as an angel of light and preach a false religion. All the prophets of God spoke with God, however, the false prophet Mohammad spoke with an angel only! Look at what God warned us; 'And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.' (2 Corinthians 11:14) and 'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!' (Galatians 1:8) Mohammad met Satan 600 years after God warned us in the New Testament, and then Satan, calling himself 'allah', created the false religion of Islam.

The entire purpose of Islam is to deny everything that God revealed through the prophets, and finally, in the person of Jesus Christ. Between the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are over 2000 years old and match perfectly what we use today, and the 24000 manuscripts of the New Testament, we can know 100% for certain that The Bible has never been changed. Infact, The Bible is the most trust worthy book in all of antiquity. Muslims claim their scriptures are authentic because they haven't changed in 1400 years. While that is simply not true, the more important fact is that The Bible has been proven to be preserved for over 2000 years. It is an old Islamic lie to claim The Bible is corrupt, because if The Bible is true, that means Islam is not true; The Bible teaches the total opposite of the quran.

God would never make us trust a single prophet; how could we verify that his words are true? God instead gave us many prophets, and they all confirmed each other. The only thing Jesus ever said about Muhammad was this; 'This is the antichrist, he who denies that Jesus is the Christ. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.' (1 John 2:22-23)

Patton3
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 11th, 2010 @ 05:57 PM Reply

You've done nothing but regurgitate what you've already posted, and responded to my rebuttals of your arguments and evidence with nothing reasonable, let alone even mildly credible.
Care to try again, or are you just here to blindly espouse?


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HumanDisease
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 12th, 2010 @ 12:31 AM Reply

At 8/11/10 05:57 PM, Patton3 wrote: You've done nothing but regurgitate what you've already posted, and responded to my rebuttals of your arguments and evidence with nothing reasonable, let alone even mildly credible.
Care to try again, or are you just here to blindly espouse?

I am a sceptic, and I was having an argument I just didn't know how to respond to that, so I was copy-pasting what was said to me.

Patton3
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 12th, 2010 @ 12:45 AM Reply

At 8/12/10 12:31 AM, HumanDisease wrote:
I am a sceptic, and I was having an argument I just didn't know how to respond to that, so I was copy-pasting what was said to me.

So you put up an argument you had with someone else for the sake of letting us see it if I'm understanding you correctly? If that's the case, be sure to make that clear in your original post.


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Tianwell
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Response to The Atheist Army Aug. 25th, 2010 @ 09:07 AM Reply

Hmm... I'd like to join this army. Though I am more of a laid-back atheist. As in, there could be a God, but if I don't find a reason to believe in one, then I do not care.

Much easier to live that way than to argue everyday over stupid Christians ;)

P.S. All of my family is Christian sadly :(


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Patton3
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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 1st, 2010 @ 03:49 PM Reply

At 8/25/10 09:07 AM, Tianwell wrote: Hmm... I'd like to join this army. Though I am more of a laid-back atheist. As in, there could be a God, but if I don't find a reason to believe in one, then I do not care.

Agnostic, then?


Much easier to live that way than to argue everyday over stupid Christians ;)

It's not so much arguing as it is "These are my beliefs, I'm not ashamed of them, I put them out freely." And they often just tend to spark arguments.


P.S. All of my family is Christian sadly :(

As is mine. There's nothing inherently wrong with it though. While you might disagree with them, the only way you may ever convince them otherwise is by showing at least some respect for the fact that it is their own opinion.

:: Sorry about that business earlier by the way. Everyone else, be doubly sure not to feed trolls.


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Tianwell
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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 2nd, 2010 @ 11:14 AM Reply

At 9/1/10 03:49 PM, Patton3 wrote:
At 8/25/10 09:07 AM, Tianwell wrote: Hmm... I'd like to join this army. Though I am more of a laid-back atheist. As in, there could be a God, but if I don't find a reason to believe in one, then I do not care.
Agnostic, then?

I wish there was a label for a free-thinker, because I just don't really give a fuck about religion. That does not mean I deny it though. Family gave me a lot of trouble with it, so that's why I find it not worth it to follow and live life in a close-minded way.

I haven't admitted that I'm not a christian yet to them because you can almost say they are fundamentalist Christians. ( I don't want to get thrown out of the house ). I don't argue with them about their beliefs because I "can't" say anything negative in the house which might spoil the overly sensitive sister that I have. Which sucks.


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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 2nd, 2010 @ 11:28 AM Reply

Agnostics are just as bad as the religious types. Not committing yourself to either fact (Atheism) or fiction (religion) means nonsense doesn't deter you and sense doesn't convince you. Doesn't make you above either of them. Although some of you seem to act like it.

It's gotten to the point for me that when someone states their religious belief (or any kind of belief in the paranormal for that matter) that I'm almost embarrassed for them. It's just so ridiculous to believe.

The mindset of these believers is so firmly set. You ask them "How was heaven created then, how did 'God' come to be?" and they just respond "He's just always been there". Think about that, it's so simple for them to accept that explanation for heaven, why can't they accept it for Earth? Why can't they say the universe has just "always been here"?

I wish Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer were related to me. Also James Randi.

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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 3rd, 2010 @ 02:10 AM Reply

At 9/2/10 11:28 AM, PabMo wrote:
Why can't they say the universe has just "always been here"?

We can date the universe, and something that has an age cannot have always existed. It's like saying "I'm 25 years old, but I've always been here." If you've always been here, how do you know how old you are? It's logically inconsistent.

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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 3rd, 2010 @ 02:13 AM Reply

At 9/3/10 02:10 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: We can date the universe, and something that has an age cannot have always existed. It's like saying "I'm 25 years old, but I've always been here." If you've always been here, how do you know how old you are? It's logically inconsistent.

You're acting as if time is tangible. "Age" means nothing. And their methods of "dating" the universe can be seen as unreliable. You almost had me there. But not.

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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 3rd, 2010 @ 02:43 AM Reply

At 9/3/10 02:13 AM, PabMo wrote:
At 9/3/10 02:10 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: We can date the universe, and something that has an age cannot have always existed. It's like saying "I'm 25 years old, but I've always been here." If you've always been here, how do you know how old you are? It's logically inconsistent.
You're acting as if time is tangible.

Do you believe it to be linear?

"Age" means nothing.

It does if we're discussing if somehing has always existed or not.

And their methods of "dating" the universe can be seen as unreliable.

They're not foolproof, sure, but are you willing to deny any better method should it be developed?

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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 3rd, 2010 @ 02:48 AM Reply

At 9/2/10 11:14 AM, Tianwell wrote:
I wish there was a label for a free-thinker

Agnostic is as close as you get.


Failure should push you until success can pull you.

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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 3rd, 2010 @ 04:47 AM Reply

So... that Stephen Hawking stuff, eh?
I personally can't wait to read his book.

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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 13th, 2010 @ 04:24 PM Reply

If any of you would like to look at some history of religion, one book I would suggest is "A World Lit Only By Fire" by William Manchester, which looks at the Middle Ages, leading right to the beginning of the Renaissance. As large a part of life as religion, and specifically the Catholic church, was then, it's examined in good detail. He's also very critical of the church's practices then, which is kind of bonus material.
That is all.
P.S.
Bump.


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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 18th, 2010 @ 02:15 PM Reply

The Pope recently made some interesting comments about Atheists, comparing us to nazis. As if we needed another reason to dislike the Catholic Church.


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Patton3
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Response to The Atheist Army Sep. 18th, 2010 @ 02:23 PM Reply

At 9/18/10 02:15 PM, boloneyman wrote: The Pope recently made some interesting comments about Atheists, comparing us to nazis. As if we needed another reason to dislike the Catholic Church.

And Donahue went on too add that atheists should also apologize for Stalin and Mao, as they were atheists, and we should apologize for their actions as well.
Hitler and Stalin had mustaches. Should people with mustaches shave their facial fuzz and apologize for the actions of their forbears?
Or maybe we should concede that nothing we do will ever make them fucking happy. An atheist could cure cancer tomorrow, and it would be some plot to infect people with a mind control chip. Just cling to, as the BHA puts it: "Good without God".


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Response to The Atheist Army Oct. 10th, 2010 @ 05:33 PM Reply

I'd really like to join this army. I'm a well informed atheist with years of debating creationists behind my belt. Idk if anybody caught the thread in general about arrogant atheists but guys, it's seriously getting old. Creationists are like little kids. They can never bring an intelligent argument to the table, and rely on silly emotions or just try to insult atheists. This one really got me:

"At 10/9/10 10:49 PM, JoseFonz wrote: this single question will crush atheism: What proof do you have that atheism is 100% right and also some proof"

Once again, clueless. Crush atheism? This guy has missed the point completely, and once again is asking us to prove a negative. They refuse to accept that the burden of proof is on them, and constantly refute scientific facts that we know to be true.

There was a time when I respected theists, and kept my beliefs to myself, but with this kind of ignorance, I'm having trouble doing so. A theist out on the corner told me to go to hell the other day because he asked me if I believed in Jesus and I told him I was an atheist. Seriously theists, grow up.

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Response to The Atheist Army Oct. 10th, 2010 @ 06:52 PM Reply

At 10/10/10 05:33 PM, SeeD419 wrote: Creationists are like little kids. They can never bring an intelligent argument to the table, and rely on silly emotions or just try to insult atheists.

Well that's not entirely true. I know it seems like all of them are completely ignorant, but there are a couple with respectable opinions. There's several that post in the thread even. Obviously when you're dealing with a Christian as an Atheist, the first thing you think is OK. This person I'm talking to BELIEVES all the ridiculous crap in the bible, but many have sound justifications and reasonable points of view. They're just the microscopicly (not a word, I know this) small minority.

There was a time when I respected theists, and kept my beliefs to myself, but with this kind of ignorance, I'm having trouble doing so. A theist out on the corner told me to go to hell the other day because he asked me if I believed in Jesus and I told him I was an atheist. Seriously theists, grow up.

Theists are very easy to respect. You're referring more to fundamentalist "I know everything I'm going to let myself know" people. Some of my favorite writings based on religion are by a guy named Ralph Waldo Emerson. He said that your conscience is gods creation. You can read the bible and be persuaded to commit atrocities because the base values of Christianity are greed and pursuit of personal gain, but that voice in the back of your head will be telling you that you're doing the wrong thing. Therefore, your conscience, and the world we have are far more divine than books written by men. Especially ones written 50 years after the main character died and then was edited and translated through thousands of years. That's a pretty respectable opinion at the very least wouldn't you say?

At 9/18/10 02:23 PM, Patton3 wrote:
And Donahue went on too add that atheists should also apologize for Stalin and Mao, as they were atheists, and we should apologize for their actions as well.

Very nice. Needless to say, we won't be getting apologies from the Catholic church for the Crusades, Dark Ages, or for making sodomy cool again. Two faced fucks. It's seriously flabbergasting that the Vatican has so much sway over so many people when I have yet to hear anything other than doucheiness coming out of there.

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Response to The Atheist Army Oct. 10th, 2010 @ 07:01 PM Reply

At 10/10/10 06:52 PM, michelinman wrote: Well that's not entirely true. I know it seems like all of them are completely ignorant, but there are a couple with respectable opinions. There's several that post in the thread even. Obviously when you're dealing with a Christian as an Atheist, the first thing you think is OK. This person I'm talking to BELIEVES all the ridiculous crap in the bible, but many have sound justifications and reasonable points of view. They're just the microscopicly (not a word, I know this) small minority.

No, it wasn't entirely true. I got a little heated earlier over all the atheist bashing that was going on in that thread. What I meant to say was the creationists in that thread were acting like little kids. In all fairness I have seen intelligent creationists, but I would add that they are hard to come by. The average person who calls themselves a Christian that I meet hasn't even read the bible, either that or I meet ones that are 'Christian' but 'don't believe in the bible stuff.' How ironic.

Theists are very easy to respect. You're referring more to fundamentalist "I know everything I'm going to let myself know" people. Some of my favorite writings based on religion are by a guy named Ralph Waldo Emerson. He said that your conscience is gods creation. You can read the bible and be persuaded to commit atrocities because the base values of Christianity are greed and pursuit of personal gain, but that voice in the back of your head will be telling you that you're doing the wrong thing. Therefore, your conscience, and the world we have are far more divine than books written by men. Especially ones written 50 years after the main character died and then was edited and translated through thousands of years. That's a pretty respectable opinion at the very least wouldn't you say?

Well, I'm not sure if I agree with your statement that theists are easy to respect, especially the one's that ask me to prove a negative over and over again I.E. Christian fundamentalists. That's just plain unintelligent, and that's hard to have respect for. Disregard for scientific fact is not something that I would call intelligent.

And in response to your question yes I think that's a very respectable opinion, however I would say the vast majority of theists wouldn't fall into that category, or at least, the theists that I encounter.


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Response to The Atheist Army Oct. 10th, 2010 @ 08:33 PM Reply

At 10/10/10 07:01 PM, SeeD419 wrote: No, it wasn't entirely true. I got a little heated earlier over all the atheist bashing that was going on in that thread. What I meant to say was the creationists in that thread were acting like little kids. In all fairness I have seen intelligent creationists, but I would add that they are hard to come by. The average person who calls themselves a Christian that I meet hasn't even read the bible, either that or I meet ones that are 'Christian' but 'don't believe in the bible stuff.' How ironic.

Oh I'm not denying that. I would say (with generosity being shown towards Christians) that 90% of them I meet, within 5 minutes of talking to them, I just start looking for ways to change the subject because their arguments are baseless, immoral, completely unsupported by any sort of evidence, and downright despicable sometimes. It's funny how many I've met that know less about the bible than I do, and I'm sure everyone here has had that happen a few times as well.

Well, I'm not sure if I agree with your statement that theists are easy to respect, especially the one's that ask me to prove a negative over and over again I.E. Christian fundamentalists. That's just plain unintelligent, and that's hard to have respect for. Disregard for scientific fact is not something that I would call intelligent.

I don't consider people who follow religious doctrine Theists. Theism is just a belief in the idea that something created us. It's people who claim to somehow know more than this that are unreasonable. I can reason with people who think "OK, it's a little too coincidental for everything on Earth to coexist as it does without having been designed somehow." It's people who take that idea and somehow prove to themselves in their mind that this designer is actually Yahweh, the God of the Israelites without any evidence to support that connection that agitate me.

And in response to your question yes I think that's a very respectable opinion, however I would say the vast majority of theists wouldn't fall into that category, or at least, the theists that I encounter.

I would agree to that, but I don't really talk religion with people that don't have an opinion I can respect, and of the people I've talked to that I didn't instantly think "Oh my god, please don't have children," a good percentage of them think this way.

On another note, I was listening to one of Joe Rogans stand up shows the other day who, for any of you who don't know, he's really got some very interesting perspectives. I love listening to him. He was talking about how mold has no higher divine purpose. All the mold is there for is to eat the bread. People are self-conscious and feel that there is some master purpose for humans in life, and that is what drives the less stable minded towards religion. No one ever talks about a master purpose for dogs or mold or any other of the organisms on earth. It's just us. Everyone wants to think they're special and unique. Well his idea was that the humans purpose on this one little rock in this fucking massive universe is to fuck shit up. The earth is the sandwich, and we're the mold. That's it. Haha. Definitely an intriguing point of view.

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Response to The Atheist Army Oct. 10th, 2010 @ 08:34 PM Reply

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Pro-tip? If you see a religion thread in General, just shake your head and don't even bother. You're more likely to find intelligent discussion at the Special Olympics.

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Response to The Atheist Army Oct. 11th, 2010 @ 11:11 AM Reply

At 10/10/10 08:33 PM, michelinman wrote: Oh I'm not denying that. I would say (with generosity being shown towards Christians) that 90% of them I meet, within 5 minutes of talking to them, I just start looking for ways to change the subject because their arguments are baseless, immoral, completely unsupported by any sort of evidence, and downright despicable sometimes. It's funny how many I've met that know less about the bible than I do, and I'm sure everyone here has had that happen a few times as well.

Exactly. It's just hard to have respect for those kinds of theists. I can totally respect intelligent theists, they just seem to be the minority.

I don't consider people who follow religious doctrine Theists. Theism is just a belief in the idea that something created us. It's people who claim to somehow know more than this that are unreasonable. I can reason with people who think "OK, it's a little too coincidental for everything on Earth to coexist as it does without having been designed somehow." It's people who take that idea and somehow prove to themselves in their mind that this designer is actually Yahweh, the God of the Israelites without any evidence to support that connection that agitate me.

I would agree 100%. My parents are actually both theists, but we can have intelligent conversations about it without insulting each other or arguing, and we've done so plenty of times. They have actually done the research and have totally logical thoughts behind their beliefs. I'd consider them both deists though, as a matter of fact, it seems like most Christians I debate seem to fit better in the category of deists, they just don't even realize it.

I would agree to that, but I don't really talk religion with people that don't have an opinion I can respect, and of the people I've talked to that I didn't instantly think "Oh my god, please don't have children," a good percentage of them think this way.

Must be nice. I swear I encounter the most ignorant theists for some reason. I always find the ones who claim to be a Christian and have never read the bible, etc.

On another note, I was listening to one of Joe Rogans stand up shows the other day who, for any of you who don't know, he's really got some very interesting perspectives. I love listening to him. He was talking about how mold has no higher divine purpose. All the mold is there for is to eat the bread. People are self-conscious and feel that there is some master purpose for humans in life, and that is what drives the less stable minded towards religion. No one ever talks about a master purpose for dogs or mold or any other of the organisms on earth. It's just us. Everyone wants to think they're special and unique. Well his idea was that the humans purpose on this one little rock in this fucking massive universe is to fuck shit up. The earth is the sandwich, and we're the mold. That's it. Haha. Definitely an intriguing point of view.

LOL. Sounds like an atheist on youtube I used to follow. Some people just classify these beliefs as more of a nihilist perspective, but honestly, there really isn't any proof that there is any meaning in anything. From a scientific standpoint, we are mold on the bread, and any further belief or theory is interesting, but really has no basis of evidence to support it. It ticks me off when my friends classify atheism as nihilism, and I actually had a friend tell me that atheism meant I worshiped satan.

Just because we can't prove that our existence has some 'greater meaning' doesn't necessarily mean our existence isn't important in itself. I don't understand why most theists can't understand this. Personally, and I KNOW some will disagree which is fine, I look at us as animals. I have no reason to believe that a cricket has a soul or is judged after death, I believe that when it dies, it simply ceases to exist as a conscious being and is recycled within the earth into other elements. I personally believe the exact same thing happens to us and I see no reason to believe otherwise. That's not a nihilist perspective, per se, just seems logical to me without any reason to believe otherwise.

At 10/10/10 08:34 PM, michelinman wrote: Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Pro-tip? If you see a religion thread in General, just shake your head and don't even bother. You're more likely to find intelligent discussion at the Special Olympics.

Hah, yeah I now see that. Thanks =)


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Response to The Atheist Army Nov. 11th, 2010 @ 11:32 PM Reply

this looks like my kinda place! I think that religion could be good thing... but we fuck everything up, so we fuck that up too. religion has caused more bad than it has good. eg. holocaust, crusades, muslim bombings, hate crimes, etc. so... yeah.

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Response to The Atheist Army Nov. 12th, 2010 @ 12:23 AM Reply

As someone who's not an Atheist but against religion, saying it has caused more harm than good says more about the followers than the religion itself.

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Response to The Atheist Army Nov. 12th, 2010 @ 05:51 AM Reply

At 11/12/10 12:23 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: As someone who's not an Atheist but against religion, saying it has caused more harm than good says more about the followers than the religion itself.

From our perspective though, the followers ARE the religion. When I read about terrible atrocities committed throughout time, for instance the Inquisition, I think to myself "Wow, look at what Christianity caused." That's why you see a lot of Atheists that are very militant about their beliefs. The whole existence of belief in a higher power has caused nothing but tragedy in civilization since the beginning, and it brings nothing good to the table other than making individuals feel more self-fulfilled with their life. That's a good thing, don't get me wrong, it just doesn't even come close to picking up the battered pieces of what's left of religions reputation. It's really a terrible terrible thing, and regardless of whether or not there is a God, mankind would be better off today if blind faith was a virtue that was never taught. I wish the question "What put us here?" had never been asked.

At 10/11/10 11:11 AM, SeeD419 wrote: LOL. Sounds like an atheist on youtube I used to follow. Some people just classify these beliefs as more of a nihilist perspective, but honestly, there really isn't any proof that there is any meaning in anything. From a scientific standpoint, we are mold on the bread, and any further belief or theory is interesting, but really has no basis of evidence to support it. It ticks me off when my friends classify atheism as nihilism, and I actually had a friend tell me that atheism meant I worshiped satan.

My former step-mom wanted to kick me out of my house when I was 12 because I quote "hated Jesus." Haha. She went and looked up the word to see exactly what it was.

Just because we can't prove that our existence has some 'greater meaning' doesn't necessarily mean our existence isn't important in itself. I don't understand why most theists can't understand this. Personally, and I KNOW some will disagree which is fine, I look at us as animals. I have no reason to believe that a cricket has a soul or is judged after death, I believe that when it dies, it simply ceases to exist as a conscious being and is recycled within the earth into other elements. I personally believe the exact same thing happens to us and I see no reason to believe otherwise. That's not a nihilist perspective, per se, just seems logical to me without any reason to believe otherwise.

Most people would respond that humans display morality that these creatures are incapable of. What I find funny about it, especially from a strictly anti-Christian standpoint is the monkeys. The mother fucking monkeys. I've seen studies that show that chimpanzees that steal food or hurt other monkey for no reason tend to be shunned by the culture. If it continues this behavior, then eventually, it will get its brain smashed in with a rock. They also tend to look down on sexual betrayal. This is hysterical to me because in the ten commandments (the law of man straight off the press from god) it says don't steal, don't kill, and don't commit adultery OR everyone is supposed to smash your brain in with a rock. So basically, the 3 commandments most cited as the prime example of how humans were blessed by god with morality were already adhered to in even the most basic of cultures. There's nothing divine about not accepting murder or theft in your society. In closing, I'll leave one of my favorite videos here that kinda smartasses up my logic here. :p Link.

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Response to The Atheist Army Jan. 22nd, 2011 @ 11:58 AM Reply

I need moderators for this atheism and truth forum I made. Also need someone other than me posting on the damn thing.

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Response to The Atheist Army May. 22nd, 2011 @ 03:40 PM Reply

I received this message from Lumber-Jax12, and I had to share it with you all.

"Millions of people have been killed by atheism, the entire 20th century was fought because of atheism, Stalin and Mao respectively have directly killed more than 90 million people, and where not even counting the nazis.

Hitler was an active member of paganism. An ancient religion that has died out, due to violent beliefs, yet Hitler was a fan of it and at some point even started to convince his SS officers to leave the church, stop baptisms, and he never was married by a minister, it was all civil. The OSS themselves have claimed his next step was the eradication of the Christian churches. He refused to even teach religion in his Hitler Youth program.

Hitler even killed thousands and publicly damned atheists, too. He had no loyalty to anything or anyone but himself. So essentially you have the second greatest genocide committed by an agnostic.
Real bad for religion right? The man was more pagan than anything, and you can't argue that Paganism still counts, its dead and has been years.

It was violent then, and it is violent now, that is why no one preaches it, Sure you can say it has killed thousands and you be right. But to try and target specific, existing religions( E.G. The Abrahamic Religions) and state they have caused only harm is ridiculous.

The last pope was extremely influential in bringing down one of the most repressive and brutal regimes. The head of the state, aka the "Stalin" of the time even stated he helped to do so. One of the most peaceful and helpful cultural revolutions ever designed were lead by holy men, Civil Rights? Hmm lets see that would be none other than REVEREND Martin Luther King Jr. and Mohandas Gandhi or were they brain-dead and brainwashed too?

JFK? A catholic responsible for standing against the USSR's attempt to bring Nuclear Weapons to a radically unstable government, a brain-washed moron who follows the masses? Hardly.

So is religion still some horrible and disgusting ideal used to brainwash the masses, No if anything they have been responsible for the death of a few millions, and the liberation and freedom of some half a billion people in this world.

Why don't you stop making atheists look bad, come up with arguments as to why its your CHOICE, and stop evangelizing this religion based on something you read in a book, by british prick. and let people think what they want too, oh and ps.I always get last word."

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