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At 2/7/10 01:33 PM, WhoIsPaul wrote: I'm just saying we cannot be destroyed. Out energy is always going to be and always has been.

If you breaka sand castle, the sand is still there, but the castle is not. At what pooint does the sand stop being the castle?

At 2/7/10 01:58 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 2/7/10 01:33 PM, WhoIsPaul wrote: I'm just saying we cannot be destroyed. Out energy is always going to be and always has been.

If you breaka sand castle, the sand is still there, but the castle is not. At what pooint does the sand stop being the castle?

When the sand turns into sediment rock after thousands of years.

Atheism in the UK; it's popular, I'm part of it. Strange that England, where there's no distinction between Church and State, is far less religious than America.

At 2/7/10 02:18 PM, WhoIsPaul wrote:

At 2/7/10 01:58 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 2/7/10 01:33 PM, WhoIsPaul wrote:

When the sand turns into sediment rock after thousands of years.

But what is that rock but the same sand? It's still sand, just in different form.

At 2/7/10 02:20 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

At 2/7/10 02:18 PM, WhoIsPaul wrote:

At 2/7/10 01:58 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 2/7/10 01:33 PM, WhoIsPaul wrote:

When the sand turns into sediment rock after thousands of years.

But what is that rock but the same sand? It's still sand, just in different form.

Exactly my point. We will just change. We are still us.

At 2/7/10 01:33 PM, WhoIsPaul wrote: I'm just saying we cannot be destroyed. Out energy is always going to be and always has been.

We are not energy. Food is an energy, we are a mere catalyst. There is no 'life energy' in that sense.

We know enough about brain death to know that your memories and your personality and everything that makes you you is intrinsically linked to your brain, and that the lack of oxygen causes this to cease. Are people who are brain damaged literally different people, in that their old being has been replaced and the new one is inside?

Do you ever consider eternity? If you met your relatives, you would have to have some degree of concious thought to recognise them, and that would result in eventual boredom after 10^1000 years; you'd just want to sleep forever. Maybe the only heaven possible to tolerate would be a thoughtless euphoria where you didn't need to consider your relatives, or anything, because if you considered, you'd eventually get bored.

I think, to recognise death for what it is makes you appreciate life. If this was just a glitch and you lived for eternity, surely you wouldn't treasure life for the experience it is? I don't think there's anything better than what we've got here. I'm not looking forwards to an afterlife that lasts forever. I want to make the best of the brief moments I am alive and experiencing. Smell the flowers. A realistic attitude towards these things sometimes makes my heart swell with as significant a transcendent experience as any religious one.

Nice to have someone deconverting in here, btw. To the other guy.

At 2/7/10 05:18 PM, JesusBukkake wrote:

Nice to have someone deconverting in here, btw. To the other guy.

Thank you for the warm welcome. Usually groups aren't as friendly about new members. Not in NG, but at other sites.

As a philosophy student, I'll endeavour to answer a question that I know the answer to. I think it was rhetorical, but anyhow.

We know enough about brain death to know that your memories and your personality and everything that makes you you is intrinsically linked to your brain, and that the lack of oxygen causes this to cease. Are people who are brain damaged literally different people, in that their old being has been replaced and the new one is inside?

No, they're not literally different people. This is an old philosophical problem that was originally stated as 'If the river is different with each passing second, are there thousands of rivers?'
The answer is an emphatic 'no'. I think it was Wittgenstein who eventually solved that particular logical debate by stating that it's actually a confusion of definitions. We have 'qualitative' differences (where the object is the same, but altered - say if you paint your walls red. They are the same wall, but qualitatively different.) On the other hand, we have 'quantitative' differences - differences in the number of those objects. Two (imaginary) identical coins exists. Qualitatively, they are identical - quantitively, they are different. Two identical coins are not, in fact, one coin.

Wittgenstein (again, if it was him - I'm bad with names, sorry) believed that all philosophical problems resulted from issues of language. I'm not sure I agree with him, but on this point, I certainly do.

As fellow atheists are you guys blunt to people who do believe in god such as blatantly telling them they're wrong in their beliefs? It bothers me when I see people go around yelling that god doesn't exist even though I believe that also, I just think it's embarassing to see people do that.

At 2/7/10 07:30 PM, SgtDK wrote: As fellow atheists are you guys blunt to people who do believe in god such as blatantly telling them they're wrong in their beliefs? It bothers me when I see people go around yelling that god doesn't exist even though I believe that also, I just think it's embarassing to see people do that.

Honestly, that gets on my fucking nerves. They have their right to be wrong and we've got our right to be, well, right.

Sign me up baby!

You're all going to hell. Atheism is just trying to go against the Bible in an attempt to get away cleanly with everything you've done. What's wrong with the bible? All it does is promote good morals and ethics- of course, some teenagers wuld say, "fuck you mom, that doesn't exist, let me smoke already." That's atheism. Breaking off from religion so you can do whatever you want.

If not for Christianity, much of what we have here wouldn't be present. The Papacy held together much of the medieval world once it claimed power over secular rulers. What has atheism contributed? Teenagers smoking weed, protesting animal cruelty, and donating their lives to "equal rights" and feminism.

Atheism= one big ball of nothing hit another big ball of nothing, and that created everything. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

*Battle music*
A wild Troll appears.

At 2/7/10 07:57 PM, Nev wrote: *Battle music*
A wild Troll appears.

I bet you're 13 years old, and you're one of those punk emo's, or a fucking vegan. Go cut yourself while I actually speak for morals in this world.

At 2/7/10 08:00 PM, TheModKiller wrote: I bet you're 13 years old, and you're one of those punk emo's, or a fucking vegan. Go cut yourself while I actually speak for morals in this world.

Good morning troll.
Would you like me to reductio ad absurdem your entire post, or would that just be feeding you?

At 2/7/10 07:53 PM, TheModKiller wrote: You're all going to hell. Atheism is just trying to go against the Bible in an attempt to get away cleanly with everything you've done. What's wrong with the bible? All it does is promote good morals and ethics- of course, some teenagers wuld say, "fuck you mom, that doesn't exist, let me smoke already." That's atheism. Breaking off from religion so you can do whatever you want.

If not for Christianity, much of what we have here wouldn't be present. The Papacy held together much of the medieval world once it claimed power over secular rulers. What has atheism contributed? Teenagers smoking weed, protesting animal cruelty, and donating their lives to "equal rights" and feminism.

Atheism= one big ball of nothing hit another big ball of nothing, and that created everything. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Did anybody ask you, Captain Bible-beater? Last time I fucking checked, this wasn't the 'bitch about someone's ideals' topic. The Papacy killed and murdered thousands of people. Have you read diary exerpts from the Crusades? I have, and the Templars, your so called, 'god's army', raped, pillaged and killed their way through the Holy Land while you Papacy just fuckin watched. Sure, I barely know shit about modern philosophy, but I do know the crimes the church commited. Ever heard of the Inquisition? How about feudal Europe? Religion has caused more war than all the world's weapons combined. Piss off.

At 2/7/10 08:00 PM, TheModKiller wrote: I bet you're 13 years old, and you're one of those punk emo's, or a fucking vegan. Go cut yourself while I actually speak for morals in this world.

Are you really the best person for that, given that you were just promoting suicide in the very same sentence?

At 2/7/10 08:03 PM, Zakkles wrote: Did anybody ask you, Captain Bible-beater? Last time I fucking checked, this wasn't the 'bitch about someone's ideals' topic. The Papacy killed and murdered thousands of people. Have you read diary exerpts from the Crusades? I have, and the Templars, your so called, 'god's army', raped, pillaged and killed their way through the Holy Land while you Papacy just fuckin watched. Sure, I barely know shit about modern philosophy, but I do know the crimes the church commited. Ever heard of the Inquisition? How about feudal Europe? Religion has caused more war than all the world's weapons combined. Piss off.

You don't know your stuff. Both of those events were sanctified by the Papacy. The crusades in a response to help, and some of them succeeded, while the 4th and 2nd failed miserably. Also, the papacy organized the feudal system, and they basically organized medieval society in a time of anarchy. Aristotle was a believer of God, have you read his works?

No reply to that, I see.

At 2/7/10 08:07 PM, TheModKiller wrote: Aristotle was a believer of God, have you read his works?

Yes. You're an idiot. Aristotle didn't believe in God, he believed in the idea of The Good as a subset of the theory of the Forms, as inherited from the Socratic school of thought, exemplified in his teacher, Plato.

Just because the papacy sanctifies something, it doesn't make it right.

At 2/7/10 08:07 PM, TheModKiller wrote: You don't know your stuff. Both of those events were sanctified by the Papacy. The crusades in a response to help, and some of them succeeded, while the 4th and 2nd failed miserably. Also, the papacy organized the feudal system, and they basically organized medieval society in a time of anarchy. Aristotle was a believer of God, have you read his works?

IIRC, the crusades were about the pope wanting to rally up some more people and decided to give a speech somewhere in europe about how if you go out and about to help the byzantine empire we'll give you a free ride to heaven + all the gold you can loot while you're killing shit.

At 2/7/10 08:07 PM, TheModKiller wrote:

You don't know your stuff. Both of those events were sanctified by the Papacy. The crusades in a response to help, and some of them succeeded, while the 4th and 2nd failed miserably. Also, the papacy organized the feudal system, and they basically organized medieval society in a time of anarchy. Aristotle was a believer of God, have you read his works?

Inquisition? What about that little slip up? Any explanation? And your little feudal society idea was shattered by wars between lords that the ruling body completely ignored. And the cruel slavery and imperialist ideas that existed during the period a few decades afterwards. Why didn't your god stop slavery? Or the Holocaust?

At 2/7/10 08:14 PM, Zakkles wrote: Why didn't your god stop slavery? Or the Holocaust?

Please don't get us into the various theodicies; none of them are based on logic or evidence, and both of them end up with a deadlock as both sides shut their eyes and chant faith at each other.

At 2/7/10 08:16 PM, DelphinusMach1 wrote:

At 2/7/10 08:14 PM, Zakkles wrote: Why didn't your god stop slavery? Or the Holocaust?

Please don't get us into the various theodicies; none of them are based on logic or evidence, and both of them end up with a deadlock as both sides shut their eyes and chant faith at each other.

Sorry Delphinus, I lost my temper. Freaking troll got me pissed.

At 2/7/10 09:18 PM, GodBeliever wrote: All of you are saying that 'OOHH YOUR GOD DIDN'T STOP THIS BAD STUFF FROM HAPPENING' but what about MODERN situations?

North Korea- atheist country. Obviously in the best of shapes, threatening everyone and everything with the atomic bomb.
Yeah, atheism NEVER inspired anything violent. Definitely not like the church.

China- Atheist country. Yep. 'Peoples Republic'. Definitely a lot of freedom over there. With all communication lines going down once bad things happen, people being thrown in jail because they say certain things, etc, this makes the country a BEAUTIFUL paradise, am i right? (this freedom issue also applies to North Korea).

Atheism has had the SAME problems that any religion has had. Prove me wrong.

Prove to me why your 'god' is letting the youth of this country fall into 'satan's' hand. I go to school almost every day and see the evilsx of this world. I can't tell you why shit happens, you can't tell me. I CAN tell you that after going to school here, this country doesn't have a religious future.

At 2/7/10 09:25 PM, GodBeliever wrote:

At 2/7/10 09:22 PM, Zakkles wrote: Prove to me why your 'god' is letting the youth of this country fall into 'satan's' hand. I go to school almost every day and see the evilsx of this world. I can't tell you why shit happens, you can't tell me. I CAN tell you that after going to school here, this country doesn't have a religious future.

I indeed can. It's up to YOURSELF to save your own soul and believe. If not, then you will die and be reborn into eternal damnation.

Good luck in hell dude. I'm just trying to save all of you non-believers.

I was a christian, just like you. I tried to fight the good fight, just like you probably still do. What did people do to me? Let run the list of names I was branded that still are in play now. Fag, loser, idiot, bible-beater, moron, dumbshit. I was ridiculed and made fun of for doing your god's work. I kept trying to do it, I really did. I want to still believe in a better place, I really do. It just seems that where ever I go, however hard I try, nothing good exists out of my attempts.

N. Korea is not violent because it's atheist. It's violent because of a broad spectrum of social issues, the most obvious being the totalitarian regime.
China is not repressive because it's atheist. It's repressive because Asian Communism and Maoism call for strong authoritarianism and state control of the media. In fact, it was even more violent and repressive when the conflicts between various religious groups took place on the streets frequently, and anyone not holding to the Taoist ideals held by the revolutionaries was gunned down or brutally kicked to death. Read Wild Swans or something, bro.

Authoritarianism also exists in theodicies like the dozens of Muslim states in the Middle East where women are shot or kidnapped for not wearing facial veils - a religious practise. Are you telling me religion promotes freedom? Bullshit.

Atheists don't declare holy war on people for insulting magical sky-men with contradictory qualities. There has never been a war fought against religion.

Finally, if God cared about us, He wouldn't sentence us to eternal damnation for taking full advantage of the faculties that He has instilled in us. Those faculties have led me to the belief that God does not exist, comprende? If God didn't want us to stray from His path, he'd have stopped Adam and Eve back in the garden. Free will? Why would God want to give us free will, only to take it away from us?

Technically, I'm agnostic. In practise, I'm atheist. See the quote in my signiature for my opinion of God.

Did I break any rules Delphinus? I'm trying to be more careful with my rants.

At 2/7/10 09:52 PM, Zakkles wrote: Did I break any rules Delphinus? I'm trying to be more careful with my rants.

Technically you didn't break any rules before, you just said the whole holocaust thing, which puts us into the realm of theodicies (which are basically Person A screaming "GOD EXISTS" while Person B screams "NO HE DOESNT"). Trust me, that's a bad argument. Also, I'm not a mod.

At 2/7/10 09:58 PM, DelphinusMach1 wrote:

At 2/7/10 09:52 PM, Zakkles wrote: Did I break any rules Delphinus? I'm trying to be more careful with my rants.

Technically you didn't break any rules before, you just said the whole holocaust thing, which puts us into the realm of theodicies (which are basically Person A screaming "GOD EXISTS" while Person B screams "NO HE DOESNT"). Trust me, that's a bad argument. Also, I'm not a mod.

Okay, thanks. I'll try to be more careful. By the way, how often do we get bible-beating trolls in here? I want to start taking breaks on those days.