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At 8/31/05 02:56 AM, ScrunchMuppet wrote: And you don't see the selfishness of your statement?
"but he dint do nothing for me"

At 8/30/05 05:19 AM, ScrunchMuppet wrote: You say God doesn't do anything but just because YOu haven't seen anything doesnt mean God doesn't take care of his own.

So then god takes care of his "own"
And you don't see the selfishness of your statement?

How could god categorize man into his own and not his own without being evil.His selfishness lies in his nature to put us through a test to see if we love him enough...WOW thats fucking selfish playing with the souls of countless millions to see who loves you...

We are all his own and is he only wants to take care of the people that absolutely do not question his word and are slaves to blind faith.He gives us the freedom to reject him but if done so were damn to eternal hellfire.

You just quoted them. If Lucifer was the most elaborate angel created, it stands to reason that God would have been pleased initially.

Created as the highest angel...CREATED AS THE HIGHEST ANGEL.From creation he was made to rule over the angels.

Where does it speak of the the years of servitude?

It doesn't, however i doubt that Lucifer turned the instant he was created.

Oh i see you were there... its so impossible right?But its possible for a omnipotent all powerful deity(that noone has ever seen)to create a universe in 7...sorry make that 6 days?If you say yes(which you will)its merely out of blind faith...and that is no valid arguement.

War is not evil.

War is contrary to the teachings of god,of jesus,and of the scriptures...
"Love thy enemy"
"overcome evil with good"
Blah...blah...blah....

To go against such things is evil ergo war is evil.

It has to be evil how could you make such an idiotic comment.

Its:

"thou shall not kill"

Its not:" though shall not kill...Unless i see fit"

Is war not killing?Is killing not sin?Is sin not evil?WTF i cant believe you said that.

Lucifer was the aggressor in his attempted coup.

You dont know that.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

Maybe god was the evil one...maybe satan dint agree with keeping man ignorant of certain pleasures of life...maybe satan dint agree with the cruel game god was gonna play on man.Who knows?I dont...you dont...

Ill ask satan...
you ask god...

*summons satan*

And well tell eachother what they said what do you say?

War was a necessary defense for the kingdom of heaven.

Paul who said, explicitly, "Never do evil that good may come."

Wether it be a necessary evil or not is not the question it is still evil and god allowed it in his own kingdom.

God allowed Lucifer to continue tempting man because if he didn't mans fate would already be sealed.

Hahaha...so youre saying that the "ALL POWERFUL" couldnt go about this in any other way?He could do whatever he wants he CHOSE this way because it was the cruelest way a punishment fit for man and in choosing such a harsh fate for man it confirms his malovence.

Man is still given the opportunity to choose between Gods Redemption and Lucifers punishment.

Who the hell is satan to be allowed to play such an intricate role in gods world.He is but a sinner.Why does he allow lucifer to punish then if he betrayed him and taints man everyday...could it be then that he is powerless to stop it.

and if lucifer used freewill to commit this sin freewill then leads to evil and its gods gift...So god is evil.

Freewill does not lead to evil. 2/3 of the angels choose to remain with God of their own freewill.

Exactly and what is god but Evil....

They just choose the lesser of two evils.

Thankfully, God's plan is high above the realm of the selfish.

Hahahaha...im selfish for caring enough about my own creation that i wouldnt want to play some sort of cruel joke with their souls.Im selfish for wanting to destroy satan...and sin...Im selfish for wanting to free everyone from everlasting torment.Wow god is selfish plays with countless millions of lives for the sake of testing their love devotion and blind faith...he plays a game to see who loves him...how selfish can you be...Point the finger at your maker before you judge me(Which is a sin in itself).

Well let it be...
But if im selfish for not casting my own son into a life of resentment from the masses that will ultimutely lead to his savage death all will knowing that it will not do any good....well then im selfish...but hes evil,for doing so.Being selfish is not the only type of sin.

ALL evil comes from selfishness and by all means , feel free to test this.

Ok...some people Kill because they want to SHARE their bullets with the world thats not selfish...hehehe...

I have other problems does he care about those.

But regardless, instead of cursing God for your problems, you should praise him.

Ummmm...hmmmm...that doesnt work for me...

Ok i praise him and thank him for the miracle that is life, if i were not born into this life i would not come across the hardships and cruelties of this society and if wasnt born id be free from these problems, but im supposed to praise him for creating me so i could have them...WTF?

That is what seperates those with true faith from those who don't.

Suckers...

Jesus never sinned and you know the bible says God shall reign forever.

He did according to the beliefs and laws of his time...do i have to explain every little thing,but lets just say he dint...

"And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand."—Mark 3:5.

The Bible describes anger as a sin - a sin of mental attitude. As a sin, anger expresses antagonism, exasperation, indignation, resentment, outrage. So Jesus did sin...dont give me that "righteous indignation" crap.Thats just a means to justify evil ways within the world of the lord...

The apostles claim to have seen the anger in his eyes...he was furious and showed great emotion when he overtuned tables outside of his fathers house of worship.Righteous indignation does not produce emotion thus, whenever emotion is involved, sinful anger is the cause.SIN!!!!!

So yeah jesus did sin.

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"Man needs" & "Against our very nature" contradict one another.

Our very nature to be the animal within us...animals do not know the presence of god nor could they comprehend it.Man feels the "need" to create deities to explain what we cannot understand(Life Origin).

JesusFuckingSquarePants...i really do have to explain everything to you.

At 8/31/05 03:22 AM, ScrunchMuppet wrote: I wonder if these were the exact words Lucifer used to deceive Eve.

You wonder? You should know...

He told Eve is she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge she would obtain the knowledge and be like God.

How'd that work out by the way? Feeling Godlike today are you?

Actually with all sincerity I do.I feel great not being a pawn,it feels good to think outside the conventional box,its enpowering to have faith in oneself above all others...

Your lord and Master-Nitro

Still have all those problems you mentioned earlier?

Its funny to think that with all the problems going on in the world god would feel less godlike im sure he has many problems...people questioning him,society going down the drain,sprituality in man is deminishing with each passing day...he has problems does that make him feel less godlike?

You've basically come to the point where you view God as evil and Satan as good.

No.I dont believe in either.

Since your posts have been self-centered for the most part, I'd say Yes.

Yes because im keeping all knowledge of these things to myself and not sharing knowledge with my fellow man...o no wait thats what god is doing so...he is self-centered,he is selfish,thus evil.

No wonder he wants to portray knowledge outside his own wisdom as evil...

The only knowledge outside of Gods is selfishness.

Hehehe...no wonder the blind sheep never see the light...

or as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are God’s thoughts higher than man’s thoughts (Isa. 55:9). Man was told not to depend upon his own thoughts (Prov. 3:5)

Is it not evil to force man to go against his very nature?

Man is not forced, freewill.

Yeah its freewill while he dangles a hanging sword of perpetual doom if we make the wrong choice(any choice but his)so how is this not force.How is it not force if the damnation of your soul is the alternative.he taunts us with hell and says we have a choice...EVIL!!!

Man inherited a selfish (evil) nature from Lucifers deception not from God.

back to square one...and again i ask who created satan?All while knowing of his eventual betrayal.

God created us in his owm image and man has reciprocated by murdering his innocent son, and continuing to betray him with sin and selfish evil.

No..... we have reciprocated his very image, which evil...DAMN i guess voltaire is to deep for you it seems to be going right over your head.

You meant another "who made who" ac/dc meaningless quote, I know.
I meant the truth.

Smothered in lies...

Or maybe yes....We killed his son and he did...he was the one the that sent him to earth to die...either way we have shown our evil as he has...his image is reciprocated...GET IT.

Sending his son to die wasn't evil - the alternative would be to condemn mankind for all time.

and there was no other way the allmighty could go about this...

*Cough*Blind faith.*cough*

As if that were a bad thing or something.

yess it is...it is in our nature to question things and seek answers if you just accept whatever plate is served to you without seeking or for that matter obtaining knowledge..then yes it is bad.

"Blessed is he who has not seen and still believes"

"Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe"-Voltaire

Knowledge is Power.

Quests for power is selfishly evil and ultimately end in destruction

or it could lead to Nirvana.

Damn...it pains me to see that religion has made you feel this way about knowledge...its the only way youll ever set yourself free...

Lucifer has always used the promise/temptation of forbidden knowledge to deceive.

What is this knowledge that god fears we will obtain?is it the truth of his malovant ways...

It is the key

Jesus

It is truth

The Bible

And will expose all lies

Amen

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".-Voltaire

Look i dont lead a bad life,im very generous,i love all man,and i crave knowledge i am not evil or a sinner(Well...)I pretty much abide by the commandments...who says i cant live a cristian life without christ...thats bull.Will god damn me for leading a good life?If he does then he is evil.

A penny for your thoughts...(martyr what do you think about this)

God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of him, “1 hate them with a perfect hatred.” (Ps. 139:22)

So god has hate...

The Catholic Church considers hatred to be a sin. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states in article 2303: "Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbour is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbour is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm.

Is hell not grave harm...is it not dileberate to send us there for our sins?he loves the sinners but hates the sin yet he doesnt abolish the sin he damns the sinner.So he is a sinner therefore evil!!!! YEAH!!!!

Man i love Voltaire ill leave with one of my favorites...

"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be".-Voltaire

Peace,Peaches,& Porn

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At 8/31/05 10:05 PM, Redbob86 wrote: awsome insightful post

First off i apologize for my prior rant it seems to me you do have a brain great post.

Maybe THAT was what God didn't want us to know.

Is this for the arguement of why god withholds knowledge?

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At 8/31/05 09:02 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

if I could prove an instance where god was selfish would that mean he was evil?

Way ahead of you buddy...But i would like to see were your going with this.

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At 8/31/05 07:30 PM, ScaryDeadGirl wrote:

At 8/31/05 06:37 PM, nitroxide wrote: Because we have freewill given to us by god maybe it was for this purpose.

You didn't read what i said.

Sure i did i just needed you to ilaborate.

It's beyond our comprehension.

"Beyond our comprehension" is used so much i dont value that as an arguement.

You're saying God made us to call him a "he" and apply human emotions like hate and love to "him". I'm saying if there is a God it's far beyond any emotion or thought we could possibly understand. This includes being beyond the very human idea of good and evil.

If we are a creation of god and your saying he exist outside a realm of Good and evil..Right and wrong then how could he judge accordingly?

I like what your saying though...

It would explain The Moral Development of Children and why we do not have a grasp on morals and the ideas of right and wrong.I could ofcourse argue this some more but i hear my Bong calling me...

*answers the Bong call*

With all seriousness though...I found your statement to be well thought out still flawed but isnt everything...Including god.

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At 8/31/05 07:25 AM, TA_Ace wrote: of course god is evil. who gets away with killin over 10000000 people

the bush administartion hahahahahahahahahahahahaha................
..................bastards

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At 9/1/05 12:42 AM, nitroxide wrote:

At 8/31/05 02:56 AM, ScrunchMuppet wrote:

So then god takes care of his "own"
And you don't see the selfishness of your statement?

Its really not "my" statement as the bible said it first. And no, I don't see the selfishness in it since he also helps others. Maybe he didn't help you because maybe you only called on him out of a selfish desire to rid yourself of your own problems.
Did you pray for others before you prayed for yourself? Considering how you are now, I doubt it.

How could god categorize man into his own and not his own without being evil.His selfishness lies in his nature to put us through a test to see if we love him enough...WOW thats fucking selfish playing with the souls of countless millions to see who loves you...

So its evil to not help your enemies who mean you harm?
How many Al-Queda terrorists have you helped today?
But wait, Jesus DID show compassion and tryed to help his enemies even when they wanted to kill him. How unselfish is that!
Man was selfish in choosing NOT to love his creator as he was meant to - the "test" was imposed by man himself not God.

We are all his own and is he only wants to take care of the people that absolutely do not question his word and are slaves to blind faith.He gives us the freedom to reject him but if done so were damn to eternal hellfire.

Well if that serving God sounds that miserable to you, I guess you haven't heard that there is Joy in serving the Lord.

Created as the highest angel...CREATED AS THE HIGHEST ANGEL.From creation he was made to rule over the angels.

He was also the angel of light, the most beautiful and luminous.

Oh i see you were there... its so impossible right?But its possible for a omnipotent all powerful deity(that noone has ever seen)to create a universe in 7...sorry make that 6 days?If you say yes(which you will)its merely out of blind faith...and that is no valid arguement.

No I wasn't there and it also wasn't mentioned so its irrelevent whether Lucifer served God for a time or betrayed God the exact instant he was created.
By no one I guess you mean yourself.
Again, a day to God is 1000 years to us.
So that could be interpreted as 6,000 of our years

War is not evil.

War is contrary to the teachings of god,of jesus,and of the scriptures...
"Love thy enemy"
"overcome evil with good"
Blah...blah...blah....

To go against such things is evil ergo war is evil.

It has to be evil how could you make such an idiotic comment.

War itself isn't evil because war can be forced upon the defender whether they want it or not. The aggressor usually has the evil intent.

Its:

"thou shall not kill"

Its not:" though shall not kill...Unless i see fit"

Actually it was that way in the OT.
Its also not: Though shalt not kill humans. It was kill - period. If you kill a fly it would be a sin in the OT.
Christianity( NT) scraps much of the OT.
Perhaps you're better off arguing this point with someone Jewish.

Is war not killing?Is killing not sin?Is sin not evil?WTF i cant believe you said that.

Murder is sinful - self defense isn't. Unless you're a serial killer, sent to Iraq, or squashing spiders- I doubt you'd have to worry about it too much.

Lucifer was the aggressor in his attempted coup.

You dont know that.

I'll take God's word (the bible) for it.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

Maybe god was the evil one...maybe satan dint agree with keeping man ignorant of certain pleasures of life...maybe satan dint agree with the cruel game god was gonna play on man.Who knows?I dont...you dont...

Ill ask satan...
you ask god...

*summons satan*

And well tell eachother what they said what do you say?

I don't think you have to summon Satan, I think hes pretty much taken you over already as his theology is yours.

War was a necessary defense for the kingdom of heaven.

Paul who said, explicitly, "Never do evil that good may come."

Wether it be a necessary evil or not is not the question it is still evil and god allowed it in his own kingdom.

Again, the evil of war is one-sided - the aggressor.

God allowed Lucifer to continue tempting man because if he didn't mans fate would already be sealed.

Hahaha...so youre saying that the "ALL POWERFUL" couldnt go about this in any other way?He could do whatever he wants he CHOSE this way because it was the cruelest way a punishment fit for man and in choosing such a harsh fate for man it confirms his malovence.

No I'm not saying that - you are.
Hell was created solely for "the devil and his angels" not man.
If man chooses to follow the devil - he becomes the devils and shares his fate.
Lucifers logic has always been selfish in nature, like a big overgrown baby and thats what you're displaying here.
"God's so mean, I backstabbed him, stole from him, tried to murder him, started a war with him, and hes going to actually punish me for it and turn his back on me...boo hoo hoo, what a meanie - I don't deserve such harsh treatment"

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Man is still given the opportunity to choose between Gods Redemption and Lucifers punishment.

Who the hell is satan to be allowed to play such an intricate role in gods world.He is but a sinner.Why does he allow lucifer to punish then if he betrayed him and taints man everyday...could it be then that he is powerless to stop it.

This isn't God's world. It was given to Lucifer until Christs return when he was exiled from heaven. When man first sinned he inheirted an selfish luciferian nature.
So man starts out belonging in Lucifers world and must seek God, not vice versa.

and if lucifer used freewill to commit this sin freewill then leads to evil and its gods gift...So god is evil.

Freewill does not lead to evil. 2/3 of the angels choose to remain with God of their own freewill.

Exactly and what is god but Evil....

They just choose the lesser of two evils.

Oh please. You sure have a funny way of looking at love and compassion.

Thankfully, God's plan is high above the realm of the selfish.

Hahahaha...im selfish for caring enough about my own creation that i wouldnt want to play some sort of cruel joke with their souls.Im selfish for wanting to destroy satan...and sin...Im selfish for wanting to free everyone from everlasting torment.Wow god is selfish plays with countless millions of lives for the sake of testing their love devotion and blind faith...he plays a game to see who loves him...how selfish can you be...Point the finger at your maker before you judge me(Which is a sin in itself).

Once again, its plain to tell what YOU would do if YOU were God. We get the idea.
There's a difference between judging and warning/ answering what I thought were serious questions/issues.
But since you brought it up, we also told to hate evil.
Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psalms 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psalms 119:113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
Psalms 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate:

Well let it be...
But if im selfish for not casting my own son into a life of resentment from the masses that will ultimutely lead to his savage death all will knowing that it will not do any good....well then im selfish...but hes evil,for doing so.Being selfish is not the only type of sin.

ALL evil comes from selfishness and by all means , feel free to test this.

Ok...some people Kill because they want to SHARE their bullets with the world thats not selfish...hehehe...

Since you weren't serious I'll take that as a concession.

I have other problems does he care about those.

But regardless, instead of cursing God for your problems, you should praise him.

Ummmm...hmmmm...that doesnt work for me...

Ok i praise him and thank him for the miracle that is life, if i were not born into this life i would not come across the hardships and cruelties of this society and if wasnt born id be free from these problems, but im supposed to praise him for creating me so i could have them...WTF?

That is what seperates those with true faith from those who don't.

Suckers...

Simply put: God doesn't cater to whiners
But those who praise him through hardships find his favor.
Ever thought of being thankful for the little things.

Jesus never sinned and you know the bible says God shall reign forever.

He did according to the beliefs and laws of his time...do i have to explain every little thing,but lets just say he dint...

"And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand."—Mark 3:5.

The Bible describes anger as a sin - a sin of mental attitude. As a sin, anger expresses antagonism, exasperation, indignation, resentment, outrage. So Jesus did sin...dont give me that "righteous indignation" crap.Thats just a means to justify evil ways within the world of the lord...

Anger is an emotion, not a sin. Hate isn't even a sin.
I had problems with this before as well but it was cleared up for me.
If the anger is caused by or causes a selfish desire - then the desire is the sin, not the emotion itself.

The apostles claim to have seen the anger in his eyes...he was furious and showed great emotion when he overtuned tables outside of his fathers house of worship.indignation does not produce eRighteous motion thus, whenever emotion is involved, sinful anger is the cause.SIN!!!!!

So yeah jesus did sin.

No he didn't.
His anger (emotion) was towards pure evil in the house of God and therefore not sinful.
The interesting part is If you actually study what these money changers were doing, they were pulling off the same money scam that todays international banking elite are only on a much smaller scale. Most of the nations are now unwitting slaves and at the mercy of these money-changers and is one of the if not the main cause of world suffering today. There is
To me its facinating that this is the only time he lost his cool, he knew what their practices would evolve into during our time and knew pure evil when he saw it.

Theres an excellent 3 1/2 hour documentary called "The Money Masters" that covered this in great detail in the propagadamatrix archive but its link is dead at the moment.

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lets just say, if we all agree on god being evil and skip that, what bout satan, mister nitro, can you prove him to be good/bad/freak with awesome power?
huh?
I CHALLENGE THOU TO PROVE THE EVILNESSHNES OF THE EVIL SHEMALE (satan)!

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At 9/1/05 02:17 AM, nitroxide wrote: "Beyond our comprehension" is used so much i dont value that as an arguement.

Well it is really. To say we know for sure is a flat out lie, and until we do actually know I'm sticking with beyond our comprehension, because assuming things can get very messy in the long run. This doesn't mean people should not search for answers but to take them as absolute truths well seems silly to me anyway.

It doesn't
Judging is a religion based belief and that's what this comes down to belief.
I don't think God passes judgement on you if you've been bad or good. I think people should just be decent without the threat of impending doom.
here's a short breakdown for you because I dont feel like writing pages on this stuff (trying to save us both some time).
There is evidence of an intelligence behind the universe in my opinion, but i don't believe it constantly watches over us sorting the idea of "good" from "bad". I don't think there is a heaven or hell, and I don't think the soul (for a lack of a better term) when released from a dead vessel is not the same as the person was in life. In that is doesn't carry the exact personality corrupted by the ego. I do believe in the idea of energy passing from one form to another but never ceasing to exist (so there is a life after death in a sense), but it's not a fluffy place in the clouds or a burning inferno. More like a returning to the greater univerce in community.
I'm hoping this makes some sense with the few sentences I'm putting down here. I'm trying very hard to speak plainly, because frankly I think it's rude to overenduge thoughts in an attempt to sound smart. (This was not pointed at you at all I'm just saying).
So in conclusion people should be compassionate and kind, they should love life and try to live to their full potential, not because something bad will happen if you don't, but because it's what makes life worth living really.

I like what your saying though...

It would explain The Moral Development of Children and why we do not have a grasp on morals and the ideas of right and wrong.I could ofcourse argue this some more but i hear my Bong calling me...

I think the moral problems with children doesn't stem from a lack of a fear in God, it's from parents setting the example, and in this case the wrong one. You have to act not preach, because what you actually do and say in life is what your kids pick up on.

With all seriousness though...I found your statement to be well thought out still flawed but isnt everything...Including god.

Well I'd have to say that no statement can be air tight when it comes to the unknown. God may indeed be flawed but that too has yet to bee seen, and it would not be flawed in a sense that we could define. At least not yet anyway.
This is the first good discussion I felt the need to come back to rofl.

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The worship of other gods is a big deal to God and is the whole basis of Lucifers selfish fall from graise

I never said that i thought the devils existed i think that when you die you live in a constent reancarnation cycle i dont think you stay anywhere for the rest of eternity

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You know a lot of people dont beleive in the same god(s) so like how do we know which god is the real one. What if gods not a guy.

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At 9/1/05 02:00 AM, nitroxide wrote:

At 8/31/05 09:02 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

if I could prove an instance where god was selfish would that mean he was evil?

Way ahead of you buddy...But i would like to see were your going with this.

I was simply going to state the fact that he wants us to put him before everything else in our lives... He asks to on many occasions.. I mean isnt that selfish? If I asked you to put me before everything else in your life Im sure youd consider it selfish... and by swcrunch's logic that makes God evil.... Though what Im righting dosent really matter, I feel that youve more than proven God's egocentricity.,....

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You realize God is the one who defined good and evil. So evil would be by his definition, not ours.

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At 9/1/05 03:56 AM, ScrunchMuppet wrote:

So its evil to not help your enemies who mean you harm?
How many Al-Queda terrorists have you helped today?
But wait, Jesus DID show compassion and tryed to help his enemies even when they wanted to kill him. How unselfish is that!
Man was selfish in choosing NOT to love his creator as he was meant to - the "test" was imposed by man himself not God.

and God created within man the capacity for selfishness.. As did he place in them the capcity for all other evil which man can do... God knew man would be selfish... Your argument is basically that selfishness is the root of all evil.. mny argument is that god is the root of alll selfishness...

War itself isn't evil because war can be forced upon the defender whether they want it or not. The aggressor usually has the evil intent.

Well i remember one instance of the bible telling you that if someone attacks you your supposed to just sit there and take it.. I think it said if a man hits you on the cheeck offer hi then your other cheeck...

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ScrunchMuppet You seem to know alot about the bible.. maybe you can answer a quetion for me? In the old testament when the earth was flooded? Who was the one responsible for that?

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At 9/1/05 04:13 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

I was simply going to state the fact that he wants us to put him before everything else in our lives... He asks to on many occasions.. I mean isnt that selfish? If I asked you to put me before everything else in your life Im sure youd consider it selfish... and by swcrunch's logic that makes God evil.... Though what Im righting dosent really matter,

Yes it does matter...Great logic.I like that.

I feel that youve more than proven God's egocentricity.,....

As have you.Touche!

At 9/1/05 04:58 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote: ScrunchMuppet You seem to know alot about the bible.. maybe you can answer a quetion for me? In the old testament when the earth was flooded? Who was the one responsible for that?

Hehehe...Scrunch avoided this question when i last presented it to him...Im hoping he actually responds to it this time its funny to see how far blind faith will make you believe in something beyond actual reason.

Does this seem logical...

Im asking again since Scrunch completely dodgedballed this in his last post.

A penny for your thoughts...(martyr what do you think about this)

God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of him, “1 hate them with a perfect hatred.” (Ps. 139:22)

So god has hate...

The Catholic Church considers hatred to be a sin. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states in article 2303: "Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbour is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbour is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm.

Is hell not grave harm...is it not dileberate to send us there for our sins?he loves the sinners but hates the sin yet he doesnt abolish the sin he damns the sinner.So he is a sinner therefore evil!!!! YEAH!!!!

Hey ScaryDeadGirl i loved your post and ill be back a little later to night with my rebuttal but im glad that their certain people in here that can discuss a topic like this with absolute maturity.Oh and scrunch ill answer your blind faith driven post a little later tonight too...try not to dodge my questions this time.

Peace,Peaches,& Porn.

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At 9/1/05 01:57 AM, nitroxide wrote:

At 8/31/05 10:05 PM, Redbob86 wrote: awsome insightful post

First off i apologize for my prior rant it seems to me you do have a brain great post.

Thank you.

Maybe THAT was what God didn't want us to know.

Is this for the arguement of why god withholds knowledge?

No, just pointing out that, as I said before, logic can only go so far. Logic may be very powerful, but it doesn't compare to faith and morality. Logic can create weapons capable of killing everything on Earth, just because "We've got to know."

Morality, on the other hand, cannot do such things. Logic can only be used for good if it is under the guidelines of morality.

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At 9/1/05 08:40 PM, Redbob86 wrote:

No, just pointing out that, as I said before, logic can only go so far. Logic may be very powerful, but it doesn't compare to faith and morality. Logic can create weapons capable of killing everything on Earth, just because "We've got to know."

Morality, on the other hand, cannot do such things. Logic can only be used for good if it is under the guidelines of morality.

The problem with what your saying is that it is up to us as individuals to decide what is morality is..... I mean if you are a chrisstian there is a set guideline, but wheen you an atheist or agnstic you most likely take a humanistic perspective of morality..... As for logic being evil, no its not, because logic isnt a conscious entity.. ITs i how we use logic..... Also many wars have been fought in the name of faith.... Either can yeild good and bad.... but I dont think Logic itself could ever be bad, because it is just our understanding and reasoning.. it is how we apply what we know that counts toward our moral judgment... no matter what your sense of morality is...

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At 9/1/05 05:40 PM, nitroxide wrote:

The Catholic Church considers hatred to be a sin. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states in article 2303: "Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbour is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbour is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm.

Ive got to say that you can't really judge the christian belif, as far as biblical facts go, on cathoolicism... I mean they've distrorted the text of the bible beyond all belife.. But then again all current christian religions can be traceed back to the catholics.. so it might be that all the current biblical interpretations have een perverted by the catholics.. I mean there for ever the catholic preists wheere the only people that had bibles before the invention of the eprenting press, and they have been known to twist their religion to suit their needs secularly... But Ive gotten way way way way way off point.......

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At 9/1/05 08:48 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

At 9/1/05 08:40 PM, Redbob86 wrote:

No, just pointing out that, as I said before, logic can only go so far. Logic may be very powerful, but it doesn't compare to faith and morality. Logic can create weapons capable of killing everything on Earth, just because "We've got to know."

Morality, on the other hand, cannot do such things. Logic can only be used for good if it is under the guidelines of morality.

The problem with what your saying is that it is up to us as individuals to decide what is morality is..... I mean if you are a chrisstian there is a set guideline, but wheen you an atheist or agnstic you most likely take a humanistic perspective of morality..... As for logic being evil, no its not, because logic isnt a conscious entity.. ITs i how we use logic..... Also many wars have been fought in the name of faith.... Either can yeild good and bad.... but I dont think Logic itself could ever be bad, because it is just our understanding and reasoning.. it is how we apply what we know that counts toward our moral judgment... no matter what your sense of morality is...

1. I never said logic was evil, I'm getting a degree in Biology.

2. Wars fought in the name of faith were by tyrants that used it for their own power. And it wasn't the real book, it was a re-written and twisted version designed to illude people of the real faith and keep the tyrants in power, similar to the Taliban and their re-written Koran books with false messages added to them.

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At 9/1/05 09:02 PM, Redbob86 wrote:

At 9/1/05 08:48 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

At 9/1/05 08:40 PM, Redbob86 wrote:

No, just pointing out that, as I said before, logic can only go so far. Logic may be very powerful, but it doesn't compare to faith and morality. Logic can create weapons capable of killing everything on Earth, just because "We've got to know."

Morality, on the other hand, cannot do such things. Logic can only be used for good if it is under the guidelines of morality.

The problem with what your saying is that it is up to us as individuals to decide what is morality is..... I mean if you are a chrisstian there is a set guideline, but wheen you an atheist or agnstic you most likely take a humanistic perspective of morality..... As for logic being evil, no its not, because logic isnt a conscious entity.. ITs i how we use logic..... Also many wars have been fought in the name of faith.... Either can yeild good and bad.... but I dont think Logic itself could ever be bad, because it is just our understanding and reasoning.. it is how we apply what we know that counts toward our moral judgment... no matter what your sense of morality is...

1.

Sorry if it seemed like I was accusing you of that... But I do believe you were saying that faith is better than logic.....

2.

Still many people had faith in those leaders.......................

Ps. Sorry for cutting out what you wrote... stupid NG made me....

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Yeah, too many damn rules on this forum. Can't quote more than two things, only 4 posts every 30 minutes, you've got to wait a minute before posting again, short thread titles, and limited post space.

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At 9/1/05 10:49 AM, ScaryDeadGirl wrote:

At 9/1/05 02:17 AM, nitroxide wrote: "Beyond our comprehension" is used so much i dont value that as an arguement.

Well it is really.

I dont think so to be set on the belief that something is "beyond our comprehension"is to concede and accept that there is no answer therefore ending all arguement...it doesnt explain anything except to yourself.

Example:

Man#1:Hey if god is all loving why did allow the genocide of the jews?
Man#2:He works in mysterious ways "beyond our comprehension"
Man#1:????

Now man#1 being a man that is not of blind faith cant accept such an answer but for man#2 it is the ONLY answer therefore not continuing the discussion or arguement.

To say we know for sure is a flat out lie, and until we do actually know I'm sticking with beyond our comprehension,

A "mystical" view of God (that God is entirely beyond comprehension) is practically atheism: it forces you to say that you have no idea what is out there controlling the world.

because assuming things can get very messy in the long run. This doesn't mean people should not search for answers but to take them as absolute truths well seems silly to me anyway.

But im going for Logical Truth.I know there not absolute...

It doesn't
Judging is a religion based belief and that's what this comes down to belief.

...Beyond absolute reason is blind faith.
If logic were applied to religion it would tear the very fabric of its word.

I don't think God passes judgement on you if you've been bad or good.

But he does.

The arguement in this thread is not about his existence(heck i dont even believe in him)it is about his malovance.We are just saying he exist for the sake of arguement.

I think people should just be decent without the threat of impending doom.

Me too.

here's a short breakdown for you because I dont feel like writing pages on this stuff (trying to save us both some time).

*Hits Bong*

There is evidence of an intelligence behind the universe in my opinion, but i don't believe it constantly watches over us sorting the idea of "good" from "bad". I don't think there is a heaven or hell, and I don't think the soul (for a lack of a better term) when released from a dead vessel is not the same as the person was in life. In that is doesn't carry the exact personality corrupted by the ego. I do believe in the idea of energy passing from one form to another but never ceasing to exist (so there is a life after death in a sense), but it's not a fluffy place in the clouds or a burning inferno. More like a returning to the greater univerce in community.

Hey i feel alot like you do.I dont believe in god nor satan that goes for heaven and hell as well,I believe religion is made to control the masses to keep them unsuspecting of the injustices of everyday events.I believe in myself and its enpowering to have faith in oneself and not have to really on a higher deity for salvation of my own soul i am happy with myself and the way i live my life.Energy never dies it just changes this is a proven fact....so i believe we are all just energy and we never die we just change...wether it be trancending through time or space i dont know but i do feel the aura of people is a strong force and soul is far greater than the flesh.

I'm hoping this makes some sense with the few sentences I'm putting down here. I'm trying very hard to speak plainly, because frankly I think it's rude to overenduge thoughts in an attempt to sound smart.

Perfect sense.

This was not pointed at you at all I'm just saying).

O ok.

So in conclusion people should be compassionate and kind, they should love life and try to live to their full potential, not because something bad will happen if you don't, but because it's what makes life worth living really.

I love you....seriously....

Ill share my Bong...

*offers ScaryDeadGirl the Mighty Bong*

I like what your saying though...

It would explain The Moral Development of Children and why we do not have a grasp on morals and the ideas of right and wrong.I could ofcourse argue this some more but i hear my Bong calling me...

I think the moral problems with children doesn't stem from a lack of a fear in God,

No,no,no...i wasnt saying that i was merely saying that if god exist in his own realm of good and evil were its not even classified by those terms but his own definition...then it is no wonder babies are not born with with the ability to differentiate between the two...but rather have to develop it.

it's from parents setting the example, and in this case the wrong one. You have to act not preach, because what you actually do and say in life is what your kids pick up on.

I agree but disagree ofcourse parents play a huge impact in the moral development of a child but,society also shapes you...

another reason i disagree is because some children that have deadbeat dads and see the shit their moms went through and used to get beat...or never had a father figure,often try to do the opposite and be a completely responsible parent and a great and loving role model for their children.

With all seriousness though...I found your statement to be well thought out still flawed but isnt everything...Including god.

Well I'd have to say that no statement can be air tight when it comes to the unknown. God may indeed be flawed but that too has yet to bee seen, and it would not be flawed in a sense that we could define. At least not yet anyway.

True.

God may exist but its yet to be seen...

This is the first good discussion I felt the need to come back to rofl.

Come back anytime...
*wink*

Peace,Peaches,& Porn

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im so sad, i havent even been flamed for my weird post yet.......
*sits in a corner and cries*
why me?!

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crap I haven't had coffee yet but I'm going to try anyway

At 9/2/05 02:59 AM, nitroxide wrote: I dont think so to be set on the belief that something is "beyond our comprehension"is to concede and accept that there is no answer therefore ending all arguement...it doesnt explain anything except to yourself.

It's not an end all answer it states that we simply do not know as of now. That doesnt mean we won't search for answers and it certainly doesn't mean I'm trying to end an argument. We don't know it's as simple as that. I'm ok with the idea we don't know yet not everyone is...

A "mystical" view of God (that God is entirely beyond comprehension) is practically atheism: it forces you to say that you have no idea what is out there controlling the world.

Well we don't do we? And it's not Atheism because I would have had to say there is no God. It's actually closer to Deism if I had to pick one.

because assuming things can get very messy in the long run. This doesn't mean people should not search for answers but to take them as absolute truths well seems silly to me anyway.

But im going for Logical Truth.I know there not absolute...

The idea that this God is far more evolved(not the best term) than us seems logicle. That is this being created existence for us we would have a great difficlut time understanding it because we do not fully understand existence. I forgot where I was going with this. *needs caffine*

It doesn't
Judging is a religion based belief and that's what this comes down to belief.

...Beyond absolute reason is blind faith.
If logic were applied to religion it would tear the very fabric of its word.

Well maybe but only for a little while. :)
LET THERE BE LOGIC

I don't think God passes judgement on you if you've been bad or good.

But he does.

That's according to a specific kind of faith not mine. Things like judging seem so... I dunno lower life form, not supreme omnieverything universe creator.

The arguement in this thread is not about his existence(heck i dont even believe in him)it is about his malovance.We are just saying he exist for the sake of arguement.

I too said God existed but my take on it is that this being/higher intelligence we believe as God doesn't share the same human emotions and judgements we do. Like hate and love.

I think people should just be decent without the threat of impending doom.

Me too.

here's a short breakdown for you because I dont feel like writing pages on this stuff (trying to save us both some time).

*Hits Bong*

O_o I don't see how that helps your argument though.

There is evidence of an intelligence behind the universe in my opinion, but i don't believe it constantly watches over us sorting the idea of "good" from "bad". I don't think there is a heaven or hell, and I don't think the soul (for a lack of a better term) when released from a dead vessel is not the same as the person was in life. In that is doesn't carry the exact personality corrupted by the ego. I do believe in the idea of energy passing from one form to another but never ceasing to exist (so there is a life after death in a sense), but it's not a fluffy place in the clouds or a burning inferno. More like a returning to the greater univerce in community.

Hey i feel alot like you do.I dont believe in god nor satan that goes for heaven and hell as well,I believe religion is made to control the masses to keep them unsuspecting of the injustices of everyday events.I believe in myself and its enpowering to have faith in oneself and not have to really on a higher deity for salvation of my own soul i am happy with myself and the way i live my life.Energy never dies it just changes this is a proven fact....so i believe we are all just energy and we never die we just change...wether it be trancending through time or space i dont know but i do feel the aura of people is a strong force and soul is far greater than the flesh.

It's a myth to indeed control the masses like the belief that the United States is destined to save the world from evil. It just makes people rally around a focal point so their busy hands don't do something else.

So in conclusion people should be compassionate and kind, they should love life and try to live to their full potential, not because something bad will happen if you don't, but because it's what makes life worth living really.

I love you....seriously....

O_o rofl
*plays we are the world we are the children and raises butane lighter in the air*

Ill share my Bong...

*offers ScaryDeadGirl the Mighty Bong*

I'll have to pass and have a mighty Guinness instead.
GWINCE!!!

No,no,no...i wasnt saying that i was merely saying that if god exist in his own realm of good and evil were its not even classified by those terms but his own definition...then it is no wonder babies are not born with with the ability to differentiate between the two...but rather have to develop it.

I see. mah bad

it's from parents setting the example, and in this case the wrong one. You have to act not preach, because what you actually do and say in life is what your kids pick up on.

I agree but disagree ofcourse parents play a huge impact in the moral development of a child but,society also shapes you...

Most of society is parents though if you think about it.

another reason i disagree is because some children that have deadbeat dads and see the shit their moms went through and used to get beat...or never had a father figure,often try to do the opposite and be a completely responsible parent and a great and loving role model for their children.

They learned to persevear through other means but if there were no dead beat dads almost all of those kids would do better than they do now no?

With all seriousness though...I found your statement to be well thought out still flawed but isnt everything...Including god.

Well I'd have to say that no statement can be air tight when it comes to the unknown. God may indeed be flawed but that too has yet to bee seen, and it would not be flawed in a sense that we could define. At least not yet anyway.

True.

God may exist but its yet to be seen...

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUN

Come back anytime...
*wink*

Indeed I shall. XD

Peace,Peaches,& Porn

Sally Sells Sea Shells Down By The Sea Shore

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At 9/2/05 05:53 AM, drah wrote: im so sad, i havent even been flamed for my weird post yet.......
*sits in a corner and cries*
why me?!

ok ok don't get all upset
*flames you*
Feel better now?

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u buys are assholes if it wasnt for him u wouldnt be here right now and wed all be dead ur messed up!!!!

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At 9/2/05 11:19 AM, freakyman999999 wrote: u buys are assholes if it wasnt for him u wouldnt be here right now and wed all be dead ur messed up!!!!

Ladies and gentlemen, best debator ever!!!
Calling people assholes isn't exactly the best or most intelligent way to get others to listen to your opinion. They'll just brush you off, and disreguard any thought point you were trying to convey.

try harder captain angry pants

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At 9/1/05 03:56 AM, ScrunchMuppet wrote:

So then god takes care of his "own"
And you don't see the selfishness of your statement?

Its really not "my" statement as the bible said it first. And no, I don't see the selfishness in it since he also helps others.

When he see fit...Selective love is selfishness.

Maybe he didn't help you because maybe you only called on him out of a selfish desire to rid yourself of your own problems.

No...i called on him to rid the problems of all man and free man from the struggle wich is life.I prayed for strangers and that is complete unselfishness,its just that there problems are my problems i feel mans burden because we are all connected.

Did you pray for others before you prayed for yourself?

As i said i did.My family my friends even my enemies wich i had none since i loved all man(and still do,just dont need a deity to tell me)as my brother.

Considering how you are now, I doubt it.

Are you judging me...Tsk,Tsk,tsk,...sin,sin,sin.

How could god categorize man into his own and not his own without being evil.His selfishness lies in his nature to put us through a test to see if we love him enough...WOW thats fucking selfish playing with the souls of countless millions to see who loves you...

So its evil to not help your enemies who mean you harm?

No,but not to turn your cheek is un-christ like...

"Turn the other cheek" is an important rule for Christians because, as Jesus Christ said as they were brutally killing Him, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34 RSV)

Will God forgive our sins against Him if we don't forgive those who sin against us?
Matthew 6:15

How many Al-Queda terrorists have you helped today?

Me and Osama are smoking a blunt as we speak...

But wait, Jesus DID show compassion and tryed to help his enemies even when they wanted to kill him. How unselfish is that!

To eventually create a religion based solely on his word...

Man was selfish in choosing NOT to love his creator as he was meant to - the "test" was imposed by man himself not God.

Man is a reflection of god,anything we impose on ourselves stems from god...are you saying god has no control over this?

Well if that serving God sounds that miserable to you, I guess you haven't heard that there is Joy in serving the Lord.

Hahaha..SERVING the lord...catering to his desire...how selfish.

Created as the highest angel...CREATED AS THE HIGHEST ANGEL.From creation he was made to rule over the angels.

He was also the angel of light, the most beautiful and luminous.

Point?

Oh and if this was so then god is but a mere failing scientist whose creations and inventions always seem to turn to darkness...Satan,man,earth.

No I wasn't there

Exactly.

Again, a day to God is 1000 years to us.
So that could be interpreted as 6,000 of our years

Wow...i thought the all powerfull couldve done all that in 2 minutes with one hand tied behind his back as he hops on one foot and juggles 3 tacos with his other hand.

The part that is truly amazing is that the Bible reflects this idea completely. The Bible shows God as being outside of time (ref. 2 Peter 3:8, Isaiah 43:13, etc.) and as a non-created being bringing creation forth (ref. John 1:3). It alludes to the universe expanding (Isaiah 42:5, Jeremiah 10:12), and the fact that God can see all of time at one moment (Isaiah 46:10). The idea of God not just having an infinite amount of time, but being outside time altogether is unique to the Bible. No other religious book makes such a claim.

Why feel the need to create such a notion...because it would be unexplainable if looked at through the eyes of logic.

War itself isn't evil because war can be forced upon the defender whether they want it or not. The aggressor usually has the evil intent.

Its not a question of wether or not it is neccessary it is still wrong...thus,evil.

Its also not: Though shalt not kill humans. It was kill - period. If you kill a fly it would be a sin in the OT.

To kill any of gods creation is a sin.

Christianity( NT) scraps much of the OT.

Hehehe...how deliciously evil to disregard gods word.

Murder is sinful - self defense isn't.

No its still a sin just more easily forgivable...

I'll take God's word (the bible) for it.

A book rewritten through out history by man to play on man.Its not gods word anymore its what they let you think is gods word...For fucks sake the word of god wasnt availale to the people till some time after the 1500's when the vatican finally had a revised version of what they wanted you to read.

I don't think you have to summon Satan, I think hes pretty much taken you over already as his theology is yours.

I guess you havent been reading my post i dont believe in neither.I just dont accept the spoonfed lies that have no answers only driven by blind faith and have fallen from the clouds of logical thinking...

Hahaha...so youre saying that the "ALL POWERFUL" couldnt go about this in any other way?He could do whatever he wants he CHOSE this way because it was the cruelest way a punishment fit for man and in choosing such a harsh fate for man it confirms his malovence.

No I'm not saying that - you are.

At 9/1/05 03:56 AM, ScrunchMuppet wrote: if he didn't mans fate would already be sealed.

Your saying IF HE DINT mans fate would be sealed...so your saying he was forced to this and there was no other way.YOU DID SAY IT!!!

Hell was created solely for "the devil and his angels" not man.
If man chooses to follow the devil - he becomes the devils and shares his fate.

He gave him a home to continue living and continue tainting mankind...Destroy satan destroy the sin in man and its all over.Simple.

Lucifers logic has always been selfish in nature, like a big overgrown baby and thats what you're displaying here.

Tsk...tsk,tsk, gee...and i havent even insulted you...

Im being a baby for craving answers for seeking knowledge...

Your displaying the exact cristian stereotype.Dont question...just believe.

"God's so mean, I backstabbed him, stole from him, tried to murder him, started a war with him, and hes going to actually punish me for it and turn his back on me...boo hoo hoo, what a meanie - I don't deserve such harsh treatment"

Why create me knowing full well i would do such things?