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Communism Vs Capitalism

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Slizor
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-04 09:22:28 Reply

Don't react to my questions as if I was bullying you. You can make millions of people as equal as possible, but can you make all of them believe they should be equal? Can you make them all believe that every person works for the same cause, and contributes to the same thing?

Yes. Heh, easy question.

dagger_happy: I'm not quite sure what kind of revolution I would like to set up my ideal state with.

patach
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-04 22:17:10 Reply

Yes. Heh, easy question.

Could you please elaborate?

Slizor
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-05 07:55:50 Reply

Could you please elaborate?

Yes, I could.

Grandmaster001
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-08 14:44:52 Reply

At 8/21/02 09:42 AM, Slizor wrote: Which is better?

Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that in every case that communism has been implemented, it has failed miserably. Equal distribution of wealth helps no one. The reason that is so is because of one thing, lack of competition. If everyone was guaranteed the exact same things, and there was no such thing as a free market economy, the great things you have today, like sneakers, and speakers, and cars, and all the choices you have right now between different ways of expressing yourself would be nonexistant. Incentive does not exist. There is no incentive to be creative, there is no incentive to get better, and there is no incentive to evolve. Communism in itself is faulty as an economic system. The bottom line, lazy people will be poor, and hard-working people will have a better chance of being wealthy. Lazy people can become rich by chance, but they will never stay that way for long.

Slizor
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-08 18:04:58 Reply

Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that in every case that communism has been implemented, it has failed miserably.

It has been implimented by Marists, in pre-industrial countries. Marxism requires an industrial state. And I don't quite believe that making a peasent country in to a world superpower is considered failing.

Equal distribution of wealth helps no one. The reason that is so is because of one thing, lack of competition. If everyone was guaranteed the exact same things

They're not guaranteed, if they don't work they lose out. And everything is not the damn same.

and there was no such thing as a free market economy, the great things you have today, like sneakers, and speakers, and cars, and all the choices you have right now between different ways of expressing yourself would be nonexistant.

Why not?

Incentive does not exist. There is no incentive to be creative, there is no incentive to get better, and there is no incentive to evolve.

The incentive to get better, is to get better.

Communism in itself is faulty as an economic system. The bottom line, lazy people will be poor, and hard-working people will have a better chance of being wealthy. Lazy people can become rich by chance, but they will never stay that way for long.

Eh?

Grandmaster001
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-08 19:09:12 Reply

At 9/8/02 06:04 PM, Slizor wrote:
Incentive does not exist. There is no incentive to be creative, there is no incentive to get better, and there is no incentive to evolve.
The incentive to get better, is to get better.

Elaborate on that.

Slizor
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-09 10:18:49 Reply

Elaborate on that.

People will want to get better, because being better is a desirable thing. No?

Grandmaster001
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-09 15:41:09 Reply

At 9/9/02 10:18 AM, Slizor wrote:
Elaborate on that.
People will want to get better, because being better is a desirable thing. No?

Not if they can get away with it. I'm talking about the incentive of beating out competition. For example, the only reason we have nuclear fission is because of WWII, it probably wouldn't have developed as it did without war (competition in this sense being the threat of total annihaltion), however, that is a different matter. People are inherently lazy. They wil do the least amount of work that they think that they can get away with. And when you said the incentive to get better is to get better, that is circular reasoning, since to get better you have to have an incentive to do so, such as competition, or fear of becoming second-best, wheras the if you have an incentive to do so, you will be forced to get better. You can't have one without the other. By your reasoning, you are telling me that you wouldn't just sit on your ass doing the same average work every day if you had a choice?

Slizor
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-10 11:46:27 Reply

People are inherently lazy.

Ahem, proof?

And when you said the incentive to get better is to get better, that is circular reasoning, since to get better you have to have an incentive to do so,

the incentive is to get better! it's not circular reasoning at all.

By your reasoning, you are telling me that you wouldn't just sit on your ass doing the same average work every day if you had a choice?

Yes, I am.

Jim-Commie
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-10 15:50:53 Reply

Im a Communist, Im the true type of communist. I believe in democracy, the original Communist state in Russia was the most democratic in the world ( for 24 hours, until lenin fucked it up big style) The reason these other countries went to communism was, because they were in a shit hole, russia was in the dark ages, Communism took them hundreds of years up to date in an extremly short period of time. Now there other choice apart from communism was facism, Russia was free, his name escapes me, but a communist sympithiser said, "In Russia i could hold my head high" incidently he was a Black american. Land of the free my arse. in vietnam the usa basicly invaded to hold up a highly corrupt goverment, (same in cuba) Ho chi mign never saw his country free. Alot of Communist countries failed, due to america policing the world, and not allowing them to exist. The USSR was a highly corrupt government yes, that is largly due to facists taking control, and tue communism not taking place. I am a Communist, i believe that a communist party should be voted in and out of Britains parliment, Communism is not a religion and not a lifestyle, it should be a party and only a party, any thing else in leninism, marxism and stalinism.
on another point, if have no problem with capitalism, get a life, there is a difference between free enterprise and capitalism. The Fisher family for instance, they get shit loads of money, one of the richest families in america, and their workers get less than 50p a day.
If anything believe in democracy, and please realise that america is not free, you attempted to lock away members of the communist party during the 50s, free speach! yeah right! just like the nazis did. We are all being farmed by capitalist media. please realise you country is shit, i know mine is, other wise i wouldnt be a communist.

Communism Vs Capitalism

Grandmaster001
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-10 19:13:13 Reply

Slizor, you are thinking positively. Good for you. However, optimism has its limits, and I don't know what things are like in your country, or if my country is just shit (which it really isn't), but you and I definitely come from different backgrounds if you think that all people believe that the incentive to get better is the knowledge that you know you are going to get better. Most people would rather say fuck it.

Grandmaster001
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-10 20:05:45 Reply

At 9/10/02 03:50 PM, Jim_Commie wrote: Im a Communist, Im the true type of communist. I believe in democracy, the original Communist state in Russia was the most democratic in the world ( for 24 hours, until lenin fucked it up big style) The reason these other countries went to communism was, because they were in a shit hole, russia was in the dark ages, Communism took them hundreds of years up to date in an extremly short period of time.

Now, we'd better get something straight here. Russia ended up controlling most of Eastern Europe after WWII. The countries became communist because they were being annexed into the USSR's empire. The countries actually didn't want to be communist. I don't know about China and Vietnam, but Eastern Europe sure as hell didn't want to be Communist.

Communism is not a religion and not a lifestyle, it should be a party and only a party, any thing else in leninism, marxism and stalinism.

Communism is an economic system. The "communist party" was invented so as to please their people with elections. However, there was only one party to vote from, the communist party, or not to vote. Don't get confused by the term "communist party," it doesn't exist. Besides, you can't just vote in new economic systems every year, your country would go bankrupt due to the strain caused by such a thing. You can either be capitalistic, or communistic. England decided to pick capitalism (however, it's tending towards the socialist side).

on another point, if have no problem with capitalism, get a life, there is a difference between free enterprise and capitalism. The Fisher family for instance, they get shit loads of money, one of the richest families in america, and their workers get less than 50p a day.

America is trying to deal with such corporate scandals, scandals that Clinton allowed to come to pass. Only until the stock market plummeted did everyone start to worry about it. It is sad that such things can happen that way, but there is a minimum wage in this country, and if one of those employees feels that the company isn't paying him a just amount for his work, he can sue.

If anything believe in democracy, and please realise that america is not free, you attempted to lock away members of the communist party during the 50s, free speach! yeah right! just like the nazis did. We are all being farmed by capitalist media. please realise you country is shit, i know mine is, other wise i wouldnt be a communist.

OOOO, what a big rebel. Dude, get a load of all the shit that just spewed out of your mouth. The so-called "Red Scare" was during the Cold War. At any time Russia could have attacked. We were being cautious. I doubt we executed them like the Nazis would have done though. You oviously think that capitalism is some kind of party. It isn't. The things you are getting confused is that there is capitalism, and communism, both economic systems, that have nothing to do with politics or propoganda. Back during the Red Scare when we said "Commies" we basically meant anyone that was in League with our enemy, the U.S.S.R. This was a war between superpowers, not their economic systems. The Russians had nuclear weapons. So did we. They were basically a totalitarian government. We were a democracy. They just happened to be communist. We just happened to be capitalist. Our economic systems had nothing to do with it. However, all we realized is that all forms of communism then had lead to totalitarian control in the countries that used it, and we took that to mean that all communists were our enemies (when in fact it was the allies of the USSR). We arrested Russian spies, who we called "Commies," cause at that time every communist regime was our enemy. In fact, they spread propoganda of their own making their people hate us. China was our enemy because they booted out our buddy Chiang Kaishek, who was the leader of the Republic of China, and replaced him with Mao, (who was communist), and also in league with Russia I believe. Mao was helping Ho Chi Minn turn Vietnam into a communist country, with aid of troops. Ho Chi Minn had planned to become a dictator, which for us is not good since it stacks the odds against us. When half the world's population is definitely against you, and only a few of your allies are willing to help you, you become a little paranoid.

Oh and here are some inconsistancies with what you said.

The "communist party" as stated above of Russia were our enemies. The nonexistant "communist party" was the U.S.S.R. itself. Members of that "party" would then have been spies. Besides what idiot would even come to the US during the 50's if he was truly a Russian? Unless he was cleared, he would have been suspicious...no?

There is no such thing as capitalistic propoganda because only groups with opinions can create such things. Capitalism is an economic system, not a party, so it cannot create propoganda (except for those Nasdaq 500 company commercials, which are just cool).

Unless you play a shitload of Metal Gear Solid 2 America is free.

PsychobillyClock
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-10 20:07:50 Reply

The way I see it, people can experiment with Communism again as soon as America falls (which might not be far off) and if we don't go out in a blaze of sour grapes and nukes. I wouldn't care much as long as the government was a democracy and everyone had a chance to be somebody and rise above some hell-hole (could one of you explain to me how that happens in Communism).

Communism Vs Capitalism


"Life is short and filled with stuff"~The Cramps

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PsychobillyClock
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-10 20:14:36 Reply

Oh yeah, there's two things wrong with Capitalism...

1) Corperations becoming aspiring monoplies and
2) No such thing as free speech amongst the people.


"Life is short and filled with stuff"~The Cramps

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Jim-Commie
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-11 17:18:31 Reply

Ok. There is a communist party in Britian, 2 infact, there is a revolutionary one, but they are mad. You call communism an economic system. That is true to an extent, but not in the party system. If you read the current manefesto. Its basicly socialism, but not the shit "labour" type. eg, more human rights, public service improvment etc.
Also i think i mentiond that i didnt like stalinism, which basicly was the driving force behind the march of the reds through europe.
And a final comment If you realy knew the extent of your countries atrosities, and nuclear arsnal. and the real agressors in the cold war, which by definition is a fight between political preferences.

and yeah, ty calling me a rebel, im not a rebel.
All i want to do is help people, and you have to have a go at me for it.

And when your political partys are financed by companies, ide call that a way of goverment, capitalism that is.

I know plenty of yanks that know what their country is doing, why dont you?

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-12 22:53:19 Reply

I know plenty of yanks that know what their country is doing, why dont you?

I also know that I happen to be American. Sure, I can go through and name all of the mistakes that we have made in the past, but I can also go through and name all of the mistakes that any other country has. Bottom line, I'm going to say my country is fine because it is my country. You are going to say my country is shit because my country does things differently than what you would like to see people doing. Here's the basic deal (and mind you that this is my opinion...)

You don't like my country because we are all a bunch of capitalistic war-mongerers that allow coporations to stomp all over the "proletariot. sp*?"

I don't like your philoshopy because it is the philosophy of where everyone is equal and isn't allowed to exceed other people (if that person is more able than another) and turns human beings into mindless creativity lacking robots designed for a certain purpose and that purpose alone.

Oh, and this is my opinion as a non-English citizen, but I don't like your country's overly socialist attitude.

What have we learned here about the world in general? Nothing. What have we learned about each other? Enough to know that you and I don't agree.

You can try to justify points such as these an infinite number of times, but I have a feeling that it isn't going to change much. These views of ours are based on growing up on different sides of the world. On my side, I just don't think you can justify communism. On yours, you think communism can be justified. No amount of arguing is going to change this. It is about as futile as trying to tell a devout theist that his god doesn't exist. Opinions are meant to be defended, true, but, it is always good, once you reach a certain point, to just stop debating the issue. Oh, and don't take this to mean that you "won" or anything, I could have either put this up, or never replied. I just wanted to make a few things clear, now that I know your stance.

Jim-Commie
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-13 14:02:47 Reply

certainly. The fact is that you dont respect my opinions, even though all i want to do is help people. I love indavidualism, you must not understand what i mean by party system. also you seem to be affected by propaganda, no one was a clone in russia. and finaly i hated the ussr for what it did, facism is what it was.
erm and i can tell that your extremly right wing. and i would never say i win an argument, if you changed your mind and decided to accept other peoples opinions and cultures ide be happy.
please leave me alone also you nasty man.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2002-09-13 15:16:36 Reply

You are going to say my country is shit because my country does things differently than what you would like to see people doing.

That is far too vague. Your country does things to other countries differently than I would like it to, true. However, this involves other countries, it is not an internal affair, you can not defend taking over other countries while saying "we'll agree to disagree". I'm all for freedom to be different, but that is what your foriegn policy does not allow! You claim that Communism makes people into clones, America makes people into fucking clones.

You don't like my country because we are all a bunch of capitalistic war-mongerers that allow coporations to stomp all over the "proletariot. sp*?"

That's not true, it's because you stomp all over other cultures and other countries and repress the population.

Oh, and this is my opinion as a non-English citizen, but I don't like your country's overly socialist attitude.

Quite a stupid opinion really. We're not at all socialist. you know what the top income ta bracket is nowadays? 40%! It was above 80% in the 70s.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-28 14:42:59 Reply

At 9/13/02 03:16 PM, Slizor wrote::

You claim that Communism makes people into clones, America makes people into fucking clones.

Although I am looking at this from a communist standpoint, I don't see what you mean by this. Although I support communism, I think he was almost right in saying that it makes people the same, but not so much clones. This happens from a government view. Its not like when your government becomes communist you slow change into the Stepford Wifes, its more that you are all viewed as one entity under the eyes of the government. But I have to disagree with you, Slizor, when you say that America makes people into clones. It completely doesn't, its the people that do that to themselves with marketing, not capitalism.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-28 15:21:43 Reply

At 8/28/02 03:27 PM, Slizor wrote: How can it be an inherent part of many people? If it was part of human nature, then it would be in everyone. Are you going to say that everyone is greedy?

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1175807.htm

Most animals work for a reward, as the article shows there is a chemical reaction in the brain that controls motivation to work.
Unless someone can be convinced that being better is reward enough to be better, then they have no incentive to work harder than need be.
People, like everything else, are animals, who have the same problem.
It's an adaptation that has occured due to a need for efficiency in gathering food, finding shelter and procuring mates.

Communism won't work because there is a limit imposed on the potnetial efficiency of someone's efforts to improve their situation.

It's a nice idea in principal, but it goes completely against natural law.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 05:01:14 Reply

Personally, I think a combination of the two.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 11:28:10 Reply

I don't know much about communism, but isn't true communism very similary to anarchism, a free, stateless and classless society? And that the biggest thing that differs communism and anarchism apart is the way in wich they wish to achive their goal? If this is true, i want to ask you communists a question: How can replacing a slavery with another slavery resolve into freedom?

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 11:29:53 Reply

At 11/29/04 05:01 AM, ReiperX wrote: Personally, I think a combination of the two.

What? With communism there is no capitalism, and with capitalism it's not communism.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 12:05:09 Reply

At 11/29/04 11:29 AM, MuShrOomBastard wrote: What? With communism there is no capitalism, and with capitalism it's not communism.

It is entirely possible, only it would have a different name. Capitalism is only an economic princeple, so in theory you could comined the economics of capitalism, ignore the economics of communism and just use the political ideas of communism.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 13:17:01 Reply

I don't think communism will ever work, because almost everybody likes the capitalist system.

And I don't agree on the statement about capitalism prohibiting freedom of speech. In the Netherlands, just to name an example, we have the capitalist system. And well, we have almost unlimited freedom of speech, as long as you don't discriminate others, or try to push people towards hatred.

Well, that sounds pretty free to me!

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 13:25:28 Reply

At 11/29/04 11:29 AM, MuShrOomBastard wrote:
At 11/29/04 05:01 AM, ReiperX wrote: Personally, I think a combination of the two.
What? With communism there is no capitalism, and with capitalism it's not communism.

You can take some of the better aspects of both systems and combine them into a different system.

Think of it kinda like Republican and Democrat, there are the extremes which are pure Capitalism, and Pure Communism. Now as you move closer to the mid point you keep certain aspects of a capitalism and take on certain ones of a Communism. Remember both are just a form of economics for a government. Basically a similar system to what China has today, with free elections, and some more basic freedoms.

Everyone gets helped in the long run, and the people that work hard and earn their fortunes can still get rich.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 13:50:35 Reply

At 11/29/04 01:17 PM, nXXt wrote: I don't think communism will ever work, because almost everybody likes the capitalist system.

Mostly everybody who has lots of money and stuff like capitalism, people who have little or nothing do not like it that much. And you havent even seen true capitalism. Under true capitalism, businesses do whatever they want to make money. This means no more workers rights, unions and all that. Back to 12 hour days, minimum wage in poor working conditions. Public education for all goes right out the window. The gov't has no controls over businesses, so our envirnoment goes to hell. The gov't woudl only oversee three areas, national defense, forgien policy/relations and things from which no one could make a profit (traffic signs, law etc). What is commonly refered to as capitalism now is not actually capitalism. Its more of a blend of socialism and capitalism. The ideas modern capitalism are more of Structuralism and Keynesianism than classical or neo-liberal economic thoughts.


And I don't agree on the statement about capitalism prohibiting freedom of speech. And well, we have almost unlimited freedom of speech, as long as you don't discriminate others, or try to push people towards hatred.

Wrong again, I do not know much about the Netherlands, but the land of the free (United States), people think they do, but in reality they do not have it as much as they think. Protest zones, set up out of earshot of politicians and media for major events. Soemtimes these are miles away,a nd if you protest outside of them you can be arrested. The gov't can tap your phone whenever it wants and listen to your conversations. IN the US, homosexuals are not free, they cannot marry and loose out on many rights. Information released to the public is almost always heavily censored. Even peaceful protests get broken up for the slightest things, opps your dropped something, you could be starting a riot, tear gas and batons.


Well, that sounds pretty free to me!

Bellum omnium contra omnes

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 14:20:48 Reply

At 11/29/04 01:50 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote:
At 11/29/04 01:17 PM, nXXt wrote: I don't think communism will ever work, because almost everybody likes the capitalist system.
Mostly everybody who has lots of money and stuff like capitalism, people who have little or nothing do not like it that much. And you havent even seen true capitalism. Under true capitalism, businesses do whatever they want to make money. This means no more workers rights, unions and all that. Back to 12 hour days, minimum wage in poor working conditions. Public education for all goes right out the window. The gov't has no controls over businesses, so our envirnoment goes to hell. The gov't woudl only oversee three areas, national defense, forgien policy/relations and things from which no one could make a profit (traffic signs, law etc). What is commonly refered to as capitalism now is not actually capitalism. Its more of a blend of socialism and capitalism. The ideas modern capitalism are more of Structuralism and Keynesianism than classical or neo-liberal economic thoughts.

Okay, I admit, you are right on this one. However, I do believe that we have virtually unlimited freedom of speech. Then again, I don't know enough about your example (the USA) to go into that deeply.

In the Netherlands, we can say whatever we like, icluding making the government look like some kind of dicksucking morons, as long as we do not say things like "we should kill the prime minister" or something, or discriminate like "the Muslims are stupid" (please note that I DO NOT support either of this statements, they are just examples. And although there are these limitations, I do think that we have a lot of freedom of speech.

The-General-Public
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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 15:47:23 Reply

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1175807.htm

Most animals work for a reward, as the article shows there is a chemical reaction in the brain that controls motivation to work.

Funny How Slizor left right after that.

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Response to Communism Vs Capitalism 2004-11-29 20:07:53 Reply

well depends do you mean

Communism-the political system where the goverment owns all
(much like greedy capitalist pigs)

or

Socialism-the political belief that that the people should rule all
(commonly called communism but changed to socialism so us socialists aren't always hassled by f*cking Rightwing capatalist Bastards[not all of them just the assholes])