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Tome89
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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 01:49 PM Reply

@Merlin

With sampling drums, I mean that I create my own drums with synthesizers, mostly the Thor and Malström, and sample it into a Kong or NN-XT. This all takes place in a separate combinator with a separate effect chain, except for the final sampler, which is in the main mix.
Tweaking relevant knobs on the synthesizers only goes so far without severely screwing up the sound, plus I'd like to know how to properly bring down transients on whatever requires such treatment. This is really a problem with the synth snare module in Kong (though I rarely use it) because there's no way whatsoever to lose the click.


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merlin
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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 02:13 PM Reply

At 4/3/11 01:49 PM, Tome89 wrote: @Merlin

With sampling drums, I mean that I create my own drums with synthesizers, mostly the Thor and Malström, and sample it into a Kong or NN-XT. This all takes place in a separate combinator with a separate effect chain, except for the final sampler, which is in the main mix.
Tweaking relevant knobs on the synthesizers only goes so far without severely screwing up the sound, plus I'd like to know how to properly bring down transients on whatever requires such treatment. This is really a problem with the synth snare module in Kong (though I rarely use it) because there's no way whatsoever to lose the click.

I've still yet to use the kong once, and I've been using 5 for a a little over a year now.

It sounds like you're limited to what you're editing to begin with. My only other suggestion sould be to use an enveloper, and increase the decay, hold, and release. There was a great thread on envelopes a week or two back here SBB Had a great post there on how they work if you're not familiar with how they work.


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 02:23 PM Reply

Hmm... when it comes to compression, if the click isn't happening where I want it to be (or the body isn't as full as I need it to be) I'll first check the sample to see if such a thing is even possible. Some samples just don't have enough to work with in order to get the sound you want. This can be fixed by EQ'ing the portion that's weak or doubling/tripling the bass drum and compressing them all as one unit. In other words, changing the sample can help.

If it's not the sample then take a look at both the compression ratio and the threshold. For more 'click' the ratio needs to be pretty high (8:1 +, for decent 'click') and the threshold will help give the sound more or less body. Set the input gain high enough where the effect is heard clearly and set the output gain loud enough so your drums are loud enough to hear and... well, there ya go. Hopefully that helps you with your sound.

I'm assuming Reason 5.x still runs off the mclass series of compressors primarily. I wouldn't know - I haven't been able to afford Reason since 3.0... I'm so jealous :(


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 03:11 PM Reply

@Gario

No, the point is that the click, or transient, is too loud, and I want to level it with the body of the sound.

My inquiry is really about compression in general. About what to do about those asshole clicks that compressors let through.

@merlin

I know quite well how envelopes work. I've never used a preset (principle thing, but also easier to mix), so I know how all the items work. There are more ways to route and tweak than anyone could ever learn, though, so there might be some clever invention rectifying this compression problem.


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Gario
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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 05:19 PM Reply

I'd suppose that the inverse would work to your advantage, as well - lower the compression ratio to something like 2:1 - 4:1 and adjust the threshold accordingly. That'll decrease the click.


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 05:54 PM Reply

Try putting a maximizer/limiter after the compressor. It'll chip off the click without noticeable clipping.

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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 06:12 PM Reply

@Gario

No, it will not. The click is instant, whereas the compressor isn't. It'll let the initial part clean through.

@SBB

The limiter will also decrease the volume of the body, and has a very slow release (see bottom left amp curve example).


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 09:45 PM Reply

Okay, I've kind of chickened out and created a portable, scaleable amplitude attack envelope with a Thor. This only solves the problem as far as the sampling compartment goes, though, since it's MIDI controlled and thus single-fire.


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Gario
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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 3rd, 2011 @ 10:27 PM Reply

Sorry, I didn't understand the problem.

If it's sampled, why don't you start the sample at ~2% (or less) into the file, after the click? I know that's possible in NN-XT, not too sure about Korg (again, Reason 3.0, no Korg - sadness). Alternatively, you could fix the click manually via Audacity and re-upload the sound. If it's a problem with the sample itself (which is what you're saying, by the sound of it) you'd be hard pressed to fix it in the compressor, especially if it's in the beginning, like you said. Even if you could, it's much easier just to fix the sample itself.

Once the sampled click is gone you can add the correct amount of click artificially via compressor, limitors, etc. That's how I'd approach it, anyway.


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 4th, 2011 @ 12:26 AM Reply

@Gario

I've already come up with a fix for the sample creation section, but it's not something that would work to bring down the peaks on a regular mixer track.

So, the problem in a nutshell: Drum hits and many other sounds have transients that compression just aggravates. What is one supposed to do about them to bring them down to level?

Visual demonstration included (exaggerated for clarity)

The Reason Thread


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 4th, 2011 @ 12:45 AM Reply

At 4/4/11 12:26 AM, Tome89 wrote: rremrurerm

I didn't read any of the previous posts so pardon me if im silly but can't you just use audacity to clip the fraction of transient and make a new sample?


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Tome89
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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 4th, 2011 @ 01:05 AM Reply

At 4/4/11 12:45 AM, Quarl wrote: I didn't read any of the previous posts so pardon me if im silly but can't you just use audacity to clip the fraction of transient and make a new sample?

Yes I could, and this is no longer the problem since the same thing can be done in Reason, both actively and in the sample editor. What I can't do in Audacity nor Reason is to hammer down each peak of a drum track. I assume there is some way to wire around in Reason that would do this, but I haven't come close yet.

Not that it really matters that much, I'm very sparing with compression, but it would probably be useful knowledge nevertheless.


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 4th, 2011 @ 02:17 AM Reply

Ai, it's a problem with the entire track? Yeah, simply deleting them would mess up the track as a whole...

Perhaps a little hard limiting over the entire track would help? If that particular sound is all you're dealing with that would do it, but if there are some sounds you want to keep at high levels (like a bass) and some samples that you want to fix then I'm afraid I don't know of what to do other than fix each offending part one... by... one... :(

Using a limiter will avoid the rhythmic problems of cutting, at least, but you'd be in for a long night of editing.


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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 4th, 2011 @ 08:46 AM Reply

I think you should 1. use different samples or 2. realize that the transient is what makes the drums snap and a drum with the volume envelope you want will not have that at all or 3. maybe mess around with the Transient Shaper on Kong. I got some pretty decent results when I ran every drum through transient shapers.

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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 5th, 2011 @ 02:30 AM Reply

At 4/4/11 12:26 AM, Tome89 wrote: @Gario

I've already come up with a fix for the sample creation section, but it's not something that would work to bring down the peaks on a regular mixer track.

So, the problem in a nutshell: Drum hits and many other sounds have transients that compression just aggravates. What is one supposed to do about them to bring them down to level?

Visual demonstration included (exaggerated for clarity)

i laughed hard when i saw that picture, lol.

i actually am a big fan of that transient shaper they included, very helpful

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Response to The Reason Thread Jul. 21st, 2011 @ 04:40 PM Reply

An equal power crossfader exists!!

There is a god!!

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Response to The Reason Thread Apr. 2nd, 2012 @ 05:12 PM Reply

Big bump.

I was just informed last night of a big update for Reason 6. Rack Extensions oh god

now I need to upgrade from 5 to version 6 :o
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Response to The Reason Thread Jun. 16th, 2012 @ 02:52 PM Reply

Reason 6.5 and Rack Extensions was released a couple of days ago :D

I made a little video demo of some of them