You know you suck at programming...

[Ravens-Grin]

when you get an error that says this
"c:\program files\microsoft visual studio\vc98\include\dbsets.h(90) : fatal error C1003: error count exceeds 100; stopping compilation"

I was seeing if there was a limit to the number of errors a compilation could have with some extremely bugged up code

[benbread]

Obviously someone with far too much spare time on their hands :)

Use #Develop instead of Visual Studio - It's free and open source

[LordAba]

At 7/8/05 12:16 PM, Ravens_Grin wrote: I was seeing if there was a limit to the number of errors a compilation could have with some extremely bugged up code

Wow, was that all in one file? Cause I got over 180 errors at one time... And it all was caused by a missing paran!
Ah programming rocks. :)

[thoughtpolice]

What sucks ass about #Develop is that they took the older versions that I used to have that were usable on .NET 1.0 down, so I can't use it anymore.

;(

[Ravens-Grin]

At 7/8/05 02:05 PM, Lord_Aba wrote:

At 7/8/05 12:16 PM, Ravens_Grin wrote: I was seeing if there was a limit to the number of errors a compilation could have with some extremely bugged up code

Wow, was that all in one file? Cause I got over 180 errors at one time... And it all was caused by a missing paran!
Ah programming rocks. :)

It was in about 3-4 c++ files, and I forgot paranthesis, semicolons; pretty much everything. All of this in like 20 lines of code!

[mikemill123]

wow four lines of code. That impressive. Congrads!

[PONGpaddle]

I think I got something similar while writing in VC# Express. I'd really pissed on a class, and forgotten about three using statements. The compiler went berzerk.

[thoughtpolice]

You fucks need to start using Open Watcom if you want pickiness even when every other compiler IN THE WORLD will deem it syntactically correct.

EXAMPLITIZE:

#include <stdio.h>

//Prototype
long retSFsize();

//Make that shit inline, yo
#pragma intrinsic(retSFsize)

int main()
{
long a = retSFsize();
printf("Before: %x\n",a);
//Declare some shit to increase the stack
char asdf[512];
a = retSFsize();
printf("After: %x",a);

return 0;
}

long retSFsize()
{
__asm
{
mov eax,ebp //The base pointer is in lower memory than
//The stack pointer
sub eax,esp
}

/*
No need for a return value, because in C,
the EAX register ALWAYS holds the return value of a function
As you can see, we have taken care of that. :)
*/
}

That code will compile without warning on ANY COMPILER IN THE FUCKING WORLD (aka the ones I've used), seriously, Digitial Mars, Pelles C, Pacific C, and more than likely Borland, Codewarrior and MSs too.

But Open Watcom will warn the shit out of you, because it forces good habits on you, you can't declare a variable ANYWHERE but right at the start of a function, you don't have to initialize it but you have to declare it there. This pissed me off greatly and I was about to ditch the compiler (not really, I would have actually READ the manual for this one because I like it so much. ;)) until I figured it out. It'll also warn you about no return value being present in the retSFsize function, not error you, warn you. That could be fixed by just declaring a long, and making one final inline statement saying mov retLong,eax and then just doing return retLong; for example.

I suppose it just forces good style or something, which isn't bad.

[White-Rhyno]

At 7/9/05 07:30 AM, Sinnernaut wrote: I suppose it just forces good style or something, which isn't bad.

I think the real question is, what kind of asshole doesn't declare variables at the beginning of a function?

//NB I apologise if I have inadvertantly called anyone present an asshole.

[thoughtpolice]

At 7/9/05 07:48 AM, White_Rhyno wrote: I think the real question is, what kind of asshole doesn't declare variables at the beginning of a function?

Yeah, totally, only a spaz I guess.

Also, did I mention that my coding habits suck ass, I have NO projects to undertake, and that EXACT problem with Open Watcom occured with me BEFORE I figured it out?

[PONGpaddle]

At 7/9/05 07:30 AM, Sinnernaut wrote: you can't declare a variable ANYWHERE but right at the start of a function, you don't have to initialize it but you have to declare it there.

C broke the rules with variables. Where as in Pascal, Ada, (most) Assembly language, and others, the variables had to be declared in a block seperate from the code that was going to be executed; But in C said you can define them wherever the hell you like.

I perfer Pascal's way of doing things really. The only thing I absolutely hate about Pascal is the for loop. The best I can do in one statement is for i := 0 to 10 do, but in C style I can do for(i = 0, n = 0; i < 10; i++, n < 5 ? n = 0 : n++). Amazingly, I did have to use a loop like that.

[thoughtpolice]

At 7/9/05 10:11 AM, WhoTookMyAlias wrote: C broke the rules with variables.

Rules? Where are these rules? Sorry, I'm not up to date with the unwritten rules of coding, all I know is that people have their styles, and this compiler, while brilliant and sexy forces me to alter mine.

Which I don't like. I AM A DISORGANISED PERSON >:[

Where as in Pascal, Ada, (most) Assembly language, and others,

Can't comment on Pascal (unless you count Delphi), can't comment on Ada, and for those assemblers out there like TASM, NASM (you can declare data in .data or not in NASM) and MASM yeah, you do have to declare you're in your data segment (.DATA, uninitialized is .DATA? (at least in MASM32)), other assemblers like Emu8086 don't require such things.

But other languages like Php, Perl, Java, C#, Python (I think), VB, Objective-C (not entirely sure), Lua, Ruby and most shit allow you to declare and/or initialize a variable anywhere you want however.

the variables had to be declared in a block seperate from the code that was going to be executed; But in C said you can define them wherever the hell you like.

Yeah, you can. It doesn't matter though, if you're such a stickler for such segmentation you can just make all your variables global and stick them in some header files.

[PONGpaddle]

At 7/9/05 10:37 AM, Sinnernaut wrote: Rules? Where are these rules? Sorry, I'm not up to date with the unwritten rules of coding, all I know is that people have their styles, and this compiler, while brilliant and sexy forces me to alter mine.

Previous language variable conventions then.

Can't comment on Pascal (unless you count Delphi),

Delphi is really Pascal with some cool stuff and an IDE thrown in. I could write a whole Pascal program in Delphi, and just put {$APPTYPE CONSOLE} (I think) at the top.

can't comment on Ada, and for those assemblers out there like TASM, NASM (you can declare data in .data or not in NASM) and MASM yeah, you do have to declare you're in your data segment (.DATA, uninitialized is .DATA? (at least in MASM32)), other assemblers like Emu8086 don't require such things.

I use NASM mainly, and uninitialized data (aka variables) has to go into the .bss segment. But there's an assembly language for almost every single processor ever made (with x86 there's lots), so they're bound to be different.

But other languages like Php, Perl, Java, C#, Python (I think), VB, Objective-C (not entirely sure), Lua, Ruby and most shit allow you to declare and/or initialize a variable anywhere you want however.

I'm certain all of those languages were made after C. In fact, at least four are actually based on C. That's why it's such a good language to learn.

It doesn't really matter anyway, since the C compilers put all the variables in one place for assembling anyway. It's just a good habit to do it in source.

[Jezek]

i do noe that i suck at programming u don't have to rub it in!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pilot-Doofy]

At 7/10/05 12:41 PM, imtheawesomest wrote: i do noe that i suck at programming u don't have to rub it in!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by programming i hope you mean life.

[NewEvolution]

At 7/8/05 12:16 PM, Ravens_Grin wrote: "c:\program files\microsoft visual studio\vc98\include\dbsets.h(90) : fatal error C1003: error count exceeds 100; stopping compilation"

And here I was thinking it would be something like "you use = instead of == and it takes you 3 hours of intense debugging to figure out why that goddamn if statement ALWAYS comes up true."

I suppose that's just me...and scripting instead of programming....

I'll shut up now. =\

[FPSinsanity]

= and == in C++ is the worst. That and greater and less than signs. Spending countless hours smashing your keyboard and wondering why the sprite moves backwards instead of forwards, and then figuring out its one character of code, doeesn't exactly rock my socks off.

But yeah, when you miss parentheses, especially closing ones, you get a TON of errors.

[Spy]

At 7/8/05 12:16 PM, Ravens_Grin wrote: when you get an error that says this
"c:\program files\microsoft visual studio\vc98\include\dbsets.h(90) : fatal error C1003: error count exceeds 100; stopping compilation"

I was seeing if there was a limit to the number of errors a compilation could have with some extremely bugged up code

get a life shit face

[thoughtpolice]

At 7/12/05 01:30 AM, Anti_CakePeople wrote: get a life shit face

Gotta love irony.

[TurnipClock]

At 7/8/05 01:58 PM, benbread wrote: Obviously someone with far too much spare time on their hands :)

Use #Develop instead of Visual Studio - It's free and open source

free programs suck

[thoughtpolice]

At 7/12/05 02:32 AM, TurnipClock wrote: free programs suck

You're an idiot.

[TurnipClock]

At 7/12/05 03:26 AM, Sinnernaut wrote:

At 7/12/05 02:32 AM, TurnipClock wrote: free programs suck

You're an idiot.

free programs still suck

[thoughtpolice]

At 7/12/05 06:18 AM, TurnipClock wrote: free programs still suck

And you're still an idiot, an idiot who holds a flawed theory in his mind that is just as flat out retarded as he is.

So, I guess, you know, all the people like IBM who use free software are all retards for using free stuff, and the people who made stuff like GAIM, Open Watcom, Bitcomet, Daemon tools, Azureus, Bochs, QEmu, Abuse, coLinux, Firefox, Notepad++, Apache, Ampache, Slide Sword, N, Stick Soldiers, Continuum, NMap, OllyDbg, Lynx, PolarisX, WINE, Dev-C++, Vi(m), MSWlogo, Phpcoder, SVN, Mono, LimeWire, EVERY SINGLE GNU TOOL, Nikujin & Tempoman & Tempodon & Bimboman, Hugs98 Php designer 2005, Stunnel, ZNES, and Project64 are all retards for making free software.

Your theory is nothing more than pure idiocy.

[thoughtpolice]

To append:

MASM32, NASM, FoxServ, SmartFTP, almost every Linux and BSD distrobution, and unfortunately most of the pay-for's suck, #Develop, PuTTY, CYGwin, Microsoft Reader, Resource Hacker, Blender, Quicktime, Leiro, ZDaemon, SND-Online, Gusanos, Abyss webserver, just about every single rogue-like game such as Nethack, Adom, Larn.

Want a bigger list? Go to SourceForge.

[CronoMan]

At 7/12/05 02:32 AM, TurnipClock wrote:

At 7/8/05 01:58 PM, benbread wrote: Obviously someone with far too much spare time on their hands :)

Use #Develop instead of Visual Studio - It's free and open source

free programs suck

:D I thought I was the only one in the world that had that opinion

That a program is free and open source doesn't mean it's better, on the contrary.
Anyone that has a different opinion is the real idiot.

Can't you just realise the facts? As I've stated in an earlier thread, people that gets money for the work they do generally does a much better job, and probably has a better habit on good programming practice. And hey, the application is funded, so someone must be proud of the result?

Visual Studio is by far the best IDE ever. No matter what you say. And if you state otherwise, you have a very strange idea of what's good and what sucks. If #Develop is free, and better than VS, why don't everyone use it i wonder? How come every big business uses VS for their development purposes? Because it's an MS product? I don't think so.

TurnipClock is right, free software sucks. (there are exceptions, but they are rare)
And as a developer, you should make enought money to buy a license for VS, it's not like it's RenderMan you're buying (what's the price for RenderMan now? $20000?), and it's well worth the money.

[CronoMan]

At 7/12/05 06:37 AM, Sinnernaut wrote:

At 7/12/05 06:18 AM, TurnipClock wrote: free programs still suck

And you're still an idiot, an idiot who holds a flawed theory in his mind that is just as flat out retarded as he is.

So, I guess, you know, all the people like IBM who use free software are all retards for using free stuff, and the people who made stuff like GAIM,

Open Watcom

*rolleyes*

Bitcomet,

:/

Daemon tools

one exception

Azureus

another one

Bochs, QEmu, Abuse, coLinux, Firefox,
Notepad++

If you'd ever be willing to pay money for this application, you're probably more stupid than I originally thought

Apache

"The most advanced webserver in the world"?
bah

Ampache,

Ripoff?

Slide Sword, N, Stick Soldiers, Continuum, NMap, OllyDbg, Lynx, PolarisX, WINE

Dev-C++

*rips out hair in agony*
That is only a compiler, a bad one too. Slow, and large binaries. No support for precompiled headers neither.

Vi(m)

That's like saying "Hey, edit in DOS is also free!" "Notepad :P"

MSWlogo

Phpcoder

If you would ever be willing to pay for wordpad with syntax highlighting, be my guest.

SVN,

Mono

Amateur project. Not created by proffessionals, that's where you get your "parse errors" dude

LimeWire

Please, add another tool that's one of the biggest virus-spreaders in the world.

EVERY SINGLE GNU TOOL

Wow, ipconfig in windows is also free, and QBasic, Notepad, list, mmconfig, quartz (wmplayer)

, Nikujin & Tempoman & Tempodon & Bimboman, Hugs98 Php designer 2005, Stunnel,

ZNES

Quite good infact.

and Project64 are all retards for making free software.

Most of these applications aren't meant for commercial use. Personal use only.
Try and find GOOD free applications for work that matters

Your theory is nothing more than pure idiocy.

You don't put yourself high on my list by listing up different freeware applications.
Go ahead, use freeware, be my guest.
Have you ever tried OpenOffice btw? It makes the computer freeze on ATI Radeon 9800 Pro cards. No free application can compare to the real shit.

[CronoMan]

At 7/12/05 08:57 AM, JesusCyborg wrote:

At 7/12/05 08:17 AM, CronoMan wrote: That a program is free and open source doesn't mean it's better, on the contrary.
Anyone that has a different opinion is the real idiot.

But free software is open source so you can learn from it. You can also change anything you don't like. Free software also collectively protects our digital freedoms by promoting the widespread use of strong cryptography, and making it harder and harder for the government to pass 'control laws' on the digital world.

What you can learn from open software, I concieve as relatively limited.
The fact that open source software is in general made by amateurs, makes the source code "not eligable for learning purposes", since, most likely, the source code is not very optimised, and put alot of effort into.

Actually, the laws I like are the ones that prevent people from stealing. (I know I'm swearing in church when I say this but please don't flame anyway : Linus vs. SCO)
The only laws that prevent "us programmers" from being assraped, are those that protect our code and interests. Some countries, these laws are "obsolete" or poorly uprehended (Japan, Taiwan) and therefore you see few programmers that lives there.

Can't you just realise the facts? As I've stated in an earlier thread, people that gets money for the work they do generally does a much better job, and probably has a better habit on good programming practice. And hey, the application is funded, so someone must be proud of the result?

That's true a lot of the time, the question is, do you want great software or do you want 'good enough' + source code + ability to change for free (but not all the time)
Example: Borland's and Microsoft's C compiler is a lot better than the GNU C Compiler
Example to the contrary: Perl and Python beat ASP and VBScript hands down in robustness, speed, esteem, etc.

Perl, Python, ASP and VBScript are all scripting languages handled by a common scripting core mor a JIT. Due to this, they have to be limited in speed. If you ask me, they are awefuly fast to be interpreted code.

Visual Studio is by far the best IDE ever. No matter what you say. And if you state otherwise, you have a very strange idea of what's good and what sucks. If #Develop is free, and better than VS, why don't everyone use it i wonder? How come every big business uses VS for their development purposes? Because it's an MS product? I don't think so.

I think taste in an IDE is very subjective. I'd pick GNU Emacs any day. I use it when i'm on these forums lurking, I use it when i'm in the office and i'm working working, I use it when I skeet on my girlfriend's sheets while i'm squirting.

hehe :)
It all depends on what you get used to. But alot of the features in VS cannot be neglected, no matter how much you love Emacs. Of course, it would be annoying to use the mouse to navigate, and click and drag controls rather than copy-paste or manually writing ;)

TurnipClock is right, free software sucks. (there are exceptions, but they are rare)
And as a developer, you should make enought money to buy a license for VS, it's not like it's RenderMan you're buying (what's the price for RenderMan now? $20000?), and it's well worth the money.

Or I could just use linux, emacs, and gcc for free and spend the thousands in savings on a new computer.

And use more time on developing and using a slower compiler :)
I prefer to have a good compiler than a good computer.

[thoughtpolice]

At 7/12/05 08:32 AM, CronoMan wrote:

Open Watcom

It's good, it's free, it's open source, and you couldn't make a better one, and saying "O WEL I HAV VISUAL STUDIO" doesn't count for an arguement.

Bitcomet,
/

I don't know what you mean by that, but it's some nice torrent client if you're not running something that can handle the stress of azureus.

Bochs, QEmu, Abuse, coLinux, Firefox,
Notepad++

If you'd ever be willing to pay money for this application, you're probably more stupid than I originally thought

I never said you'd HAVE buy it, free version is good enough, I don't use it because I prefer Emacs/Textpad, but a lot of my friends use Notepad++ all the time on Winodws, and Vi(m)/Emacs on Linux.

Apache

"The most advanced webserver in the world"?
bah

I'd rather run Apache on Linux as opposed to just about any IIS technology on Windows.

Ampache,

Ripoff?

Of?

Dev-C++

*rips out hair in agony*
That is only a compiler, a bad one too. Slow, and large binaries. No support for precompiled headers neither.

It's not the best, it just invokes GNU compilers, but the package manager allows you to install support for almost anything, I can't use glAux API calls on Open Watcom so I'm forced to use it instead. That's one thing I have to say I really like about it.

Vi(m)

That's like saying "Hey, edit in DOS is also free!" "Notepad :P"

What's wrong with Vi/m? It's a fine editor, most of my friends use it.

Phpcoder

If you would ever be willing to pay for wordpad with syntax highlighting, be my guest.

Phpcoder Pro is free and pretty stable, an alternative if I need something to start up quickly, because Designer 2005 takes a while to load on this old thing.

Mono

Amateur project. Not created by proffessionals, that's where you get your "parse errors" dude

Then why is it officially being used by Googles Summer of Code competition for a team people who sign in can team up with?

LimeWire

Please, add another tool that's one of the biggest virus-spreaders in the world.

... It doesn't spread viruses and never has? Limewire is ment for music, primarily, I figured that was sorta implied. Anybody who really needs applications and goes to Limewire for a last ditch and normally futile effort must not have been able to find a torrent or something.

EVERY SINGLE GNU TOOL

Wow, ipconfig in windows is also free, and QBasic, Notepad, list, mmconfig, quartz (wmplayer)

Notepad and QBasic suck, any media player on Windows wins however, because Windows is by far dominate in sound when compared to linux.

ZNES

Quite good infact.

Use it? Go find a rom for "Rape games" and laugh your ass off. Crazy 80s game developers...

Most of these applications aren't meant for commercial use. Personal use only.
Try and find GOOD free applications for work that matters

Already got plenty of free stuff I could use for work.

You don't put yourself high on my list by listing up different freeware applications.

Wow, crushed.

Go ahead, use freeware, be my guest.

Okay.

Have you ever tried OpenOffice btw? It makes the computer freeze on ATI Radeon 9800 Pro cards. No free application can compare to the real shit.

Sorry, I don't care if an application is good if it freezes my computer.

That a program is free and open source doesn't mean it's better, on the contrary.
Anyone that has a different opinion is the real idiot.

The funny thing is nobody in this thread ever even said the word better before you did. Who said it was better? I didn't, go on, search this page using FFs Ctrl+F and look for "better" and you're the first person to say it.

Can't you just realise the facts? As I've stated in an earlier thread, people that gets money for the work they do generally does a much better job, and probably has a better habit on good programming practice. And hey, the application is funded, so someone must be proud of the result?

I dunno, PHP Designer 2005 is about the best PHP ide I've ever seen, and no price tag is good for me, I can't comment on Zend studio though. Problem is it's never updated and is slightly buggy, but you can't say a lot of commercial stuff isn't as well, plus if the project is GPLd, it gets fixed in a nano second as opposed to having developers wade through source code for a week while you're stuck with an annoying memory leak.

That doesn't reduce the fact that there WAS a bug, but it being fixed generally a fuckload faster eases the pain.

As far as functionality goes, it's great.
Also, just because it's commericial doesn't mean it's good either, there are a lot better commercial applications out there, but a lot are shit.

Visual Studio is by far the best IDE ever. No matter what you say. And if you state otherwise, you have a very strange idea of what's good and what sucks. If #Develop is free, and better than VS, why don't everyone use it i wonder? How come every big business uses VS for their development purposes? Because it's an MS product? I don't think so.

Never used it, I don't care though, Open Watcom is more than enough for me, why? Because it fits me, it's not a total whore in space on the HDD (I don't care if modern computers these days come with a standard of 50-80 gigs, I'd rather not waste a fuckload of that on a fucking compiler), and another thing, that is a biggie:
BECAUSE I LIKE IT.

Functionality doesn't mean fuck if you don't like it.

I'm not forced to use this shit, I use it because I like it and it's useful.

TurnipClock is right, free software sucks. (there are exceptions, but they are rare)

There are a lot of exceptions, you can't find commerical software FOR EVERYTHING. They'll (companies) be working on something else. Free software is as good as you'll get in some places, because not everything has already been made.

And as a developer, you should make enought money to buy a license for VS, it's not like it's RenderMan you're buying (what's the price for RenderMan now? $20000?), and it's well worth the money.

I'm with JC on this, I'd rather just buy a new computer or save up cash, Textpad + Open Watcom is good enough for me for C and C++ programming, PHP designer 2005 is good enough for me in PHP development, Emacs I can use for Java, Perl, Assembly and who knows what the fuck else, and if emacs doesn't support it I can just use jEdit instead.

[CronoMan]

At 7/12/05 07:17 PM, JesusCyborg wrote: Gosh, that's really disrespectful. You seem to be under the impression that open source programmers are:

a) Kids (like what you'll find on PlanetSourceCode)
b) Janitors and homeless people who program in their free time (lol I used to be a both)

hehe, and no :)

I'm not for generalizing, my point is that free programs tend to be less thougherly work than commercial programs.

But the fact of the matter is, that open source programmers are usually professionally employed software engineers who write open source code in their free time. (Like me lol) There are also commercially developped open source applications like Asterisk, JBoss, MySQL, etc.

I now run Sun Solaris as a server OS rather than Linux, because it used to be a commercial OS.

hehe :)
It all depends on what you get used to. But alot of the features in VS cannot be neglected, no matter how much you love Emacs. Of course, it would be annoying to use the mouse to navigate, and click and drag controls rather than copy-paste or manually writing ;)

To be completely honest with you, and you're going to think I'm totally waq... But I believe that form designers are sloppy and antiquated. I think a nice object-oriented implementation for graphical components (such as what was done with Qt and Java) is a much better alternative to a form designer. Also I believe that it is almost always a bad idea to setup a window where you just slap the controls on without any sort of layout managment.

You're mad!
C# is object oriented, and it can be written without a form designer
It's almost just like writing Java, except that you don't experience the agonizing pain of layouts and ActionListeners.

And use more time on developing and using a slower compiler :)
I prefer to have a good compiler than a good computer.

Ok, if I wanted a fast compiler I would use TCC or Digital Mars, which is much faster than Microsoft's compiler. Secondly, development time isn't slower using open source software. That's more of a question of what language you're using. If you're making a C++ GUI program, then it becomes more of a question of what tools you're using. If you're using a class library slowly moving in to obcelesence like MFC, your development time and maintenance costs are probably going to be higher if you're using a modern, open source tool like Qt.

QT (Trolltech, A teacher at my school was one of the programmers of QT ;) )
Which I am no fan of. I can't understand how people manage to create GUI applications using just C++ and QT :P and QT is packed with bugs (or it was when I tried it, like segmentation faults with some listboxes etc.)

Anyway, I've never tested TCC or Digital Mars, so you might be right, but as far as I know MS VC++ is rated one of the fastest compilers available. And I seriously doubt that TCC or DM can compare to it's flexibility.
Plain Win32 programming takes forever, so I only use that when I just need a render window for games, or general graphics. .NET for all your GUI programming needs!
Writing a GUI application in C++ is painstaking work, it takes forever, and mostly you do not achieve any more than you would with a framework, and there are more ways to make a buggy program.

You don't think it's nice with drag and drop controls?
Viva la simplicity.

[thoughtpolice]

At 7/13/05 04:51 AM, CronoMan wrote: Anyway, I've never tested TCC or Digital Mars, so you might be right, but as far as I know MS VC++ is rated one of the fastest compilers available. And I seriously doubt that TCC or DM can compare to it's flexibility.

Digital Mars is fast as hell. When I don't feel like making a Watcom project for a Win32 application I'm making, I code it out in textpad, open up the command line and type in "dmc [source files and libs here]" hit enter and boom, done.

Plain Win32 programming takes forever, so I only use that when I just need a render window for games, or general graphics. .NET for all your GUI programming needs!

I don't like .NET GUI programming, I just don't.

I like straight Win32 because it's very procedural and very straight forward, shit like the MFC and Window Forms are weirder. Windows forms are great, sure, whatever, but I don't like them as much as I do Win32. Probably the only object-oriented GUI programming I've ever done that didn't annoy me to fuck was Java. You can give me two choices, .NET or Win32, and I'll probably choose Win32, if I have to I might also put a little MFC in there.

Writing a GUI application in C++ is painstaking work, it takes forever, and mostly you do not achieve any more than you would with a framework, and there are more ways to make a buggy program.

You achieve a massive speed increase. All of the C# GUI applications I've ever made, while pretty and all, take about 10 to 15 seconds to start up fully, a Win32 application takes like, none, even with the MFC.

I agree with you on the buggy part however, there are a lot of stupid mistakes you can make with Win32 when beginning and even when advanced, but that's why you have error checking and SEH with you the whole way.

You don't think it's nice with drag and drop controls?
Viva la simplicity.

The only time I ever use any type of visual editor is when I'm programming in Delphi or I am making dialogs, and making dialogs really isn't that hard, I just use the dialog editor because I have really bad coordnate memory in my head so most the ones I hand code look like massive shit.