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::ish hesitant to post:: Okay...I can probably expect lots of remarks about my view points...I see quoting and quoteburning out the ass in here...

Okay...here's the bit.

You have a spem and an egg...when the sperm is released into the vagina it travels up the tube and whatshit and fertilizes the egg...now...the fertilized egg begins to develop the embryo or whatever...now...it is growing...and developing. In order for something to grow and develope it MUST have living parts...thusly it is a life. Now...taking life intentionally is morally wrong...unless its for self preservation i.e. hunting for food(not game hunting) and self defense...also permissable in war.

Of course, as I previously posted in a seperate thread, morality is not very abundant in today's society. If you don't want a kid, don't have sex, it's as simple as that...end of topic. Now...if a woman was raped...yeah...I might be able to see possibly allowing an abortion...but the life growing inside her is not hers...sure the woman has a choice with what she can do to her body...but that life growing in her belly is not her body...it a seperate growing entity...it takes nurishment from her body, but it is not her body. All life is precious...whether we realize it or not, taking ANY life...is morally wrong, because everything has a purpose, even diseases...they root out the weak. However, I realize that with man's inate fear of death, they take steps to rid themselves of disease, thus prolonging their life to the exact same end...it makes no sense...

For billions of years, nature has had a way of taking care of things...birth, life death...this was the progression of things...sure, subphases like developement and shit took place, but the main point is that all things lived or died in a perfectly natural surrounding with out outside interfearance...the hunters hunted, the hunted were eaten..thsi has occured forever and a day. Wars were a thing of manly creation...and self defense was necessary only because men became uncivil. So...as you can see...man, although natural, holds many unnatural views about death...killing out of anger...spite...or for fun or sport...and just plain trying to avoid death all together through modern technology...suck it up and face it...it's going to happen.

Now...this woman with an unborn fetus in her womb...who is she that she can dictate whether or not that life has a chance to experience the world? Who gave her dominion over life and death? Nobody...your body, your choice...leave those choices to your body...and leave that life alone.

Cross Out.

~Zeh Black Cross

P.S. - Flame away my pro-choiceists, flame away.

At 8/6/05 11:18 PM, xXxBlackCrossxXx wrote:

P.S. - Flame away my pro-choiceists, flame away.

Holy crap. That seems like it could be a speech at a rally against pro-choice people.

LOL! AT LEAST everyone is having a rational conversation.

NADER 2008!!!
LEGALIZE THE NO NO WEED!!!
PRO-CHOICE ROCKS!!!

I had to say that! LOL!!!

my girlfriends sister was raped by her there stepdad...... if she were to get pregnant this child would be a reminder of her rape....

so your saying we should consider wether we should accept plants animals etc.

At 8/6/05 11:38 PM, Chronis wrote: so your saying we should consider wether we should accept plants animals etc.

Okay...she could give the baby up for adoption on your reminder note...and the accepting plants and animals...um...no shit sherlock...I mean, wtf? They should all be wiped from the face of the planet to make way for the selfish abomination..MAN!! Jesus...plants and animals are used for food, but also contribute to the function of our ecosystem...without plants you wouldn't be here...unless you've devised away to enact photosynthesis without plants...

At 8/6/05 11:37 PM, Chronis wrote: my girlfriends sister was raped by her there stepdad...... if she were to get pregnant this child would be a reminder of her rape....

Sheesh, I've heard of drinking to forget, but getting an abortion?

I think the logic behind rape abortions is that the person who was raped didn't want a child, not that they don't want to remember the rape. One is logical, the other is selfish.

At 8/5/05 07:05 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

No... anything that grows, feeeds and reproduces is technically alive.. But that dsent mean that it is AWARE...... So at the stage it is in, in the above picture, the organism is no more complex than mold.. Do you have any problem with killing mold?

I don't think anyone is worried about hurting the fetus, so the fact that the fetus can't feel pain is completely irrelevant. The fact is, that fetus is going to become a human, so killing a fetus is like killing a baby baby.

And did you just relate aborting a fetus to "killing mold"?

hey buddy some guy said somthing about anything that lives should not be killed cuz someone decides they want to this was my 2nd post i didn't know how this shit worked

At 8/7/05 12:26 AM, Chronis wrote: hey buddy some guy said somthing about anything that lives should not be killed cuz someone decides they want to this was my 2nd post i didn't know how this shit worked

Aw, my bad, bro. We're cool. Sorry about that. I thought you were attacking my post.

Cross Out

~Zeh Black Cross

Less then 2% of abortions are resultant from rapes. Not only that, this number includes the number of women that have to have an abortion to save their own lives. What most pro-lifers are arguing about is the 98% of people who WILLINGLY choose to have an abortion. Just to let you guys know.

At 8/7/05 01:23 AM, Ravens_Grin wrote: Less then 2% of abortions are resultant from rapes. Not only that, this number includes the number of women that have to have an abortion to save their own lives. What most pro-lifers are arguing about is the 98% of people who WILLINGLY choose to have an abortion. Just to let you guys know.

Thanks for the clarification. I understood this, but it's nice to have that point made clear. *nods*

Cross Out.

~Zeh Black Cross

At 8/6/05 11:18 PM, xXxBlackCrossxXx wrote: Now...this woman with an unborn fetus in her womb...who is she that she can dictate whether or not that life has a chance to experience the world? Who gave her dominion over life and death?

Well fuck, but abstinence is a form of contraception too, now isn't it?

Isn't not having sex just another way of preventing a baby from having a chance to experience the world?

At 8/7/05 02:46 AM, Elfer wrote:

At 8/6/05 11:18 PM, xXxBlackCrossxXx wrote:

Well fuck, but abstinence is a form of contraception too, now isn't it?

Isn't not having sex just another way of preventing a baby from having a chance to experience the world?

well your not making a baby to expierence with now aren't you. so in sense your letting something that doesn't exist right now not expierence life, your logic doesn't make sense.

At 8/6/05 11:18 PM, xXxBlackCrossxXx wrote:

ish hesitant to post:: Okay...I can probably expect lots of remarks about my view points...I see quoting and quoteburning out the ass in here...

Okay...here's the bit.

You have a spem and an egg...when the sperm is released into the vagina it travels up the tube and whatshit and fertilizes the egg...now...the fertilized egg begins to develop the embryo or whatever...now...it is growing...and developing. In order for something to grow and develope it MUST have living parts...thusly it is a life. Now...taking life intentionally is morally wrong...unless its for self preservation i.e. hunting for food(not game hunting) and self defense...also permissable in war.

Of course, as I previously posted in a seperate thread, morality is not very abundant in today's society. If you don't want a kid, don't have sex, it's as simple as that...end of topic. Now...if a woman was raped...yeah...I might be able to see possibly allowing an abortion...but the life growing inside her is not hers...sure the woman has a choice with what she can do to her body...but that life growing in her belly is not her body...it a seperate growing entity...it takes nurishment from her body, but it is not her body. All life is precious...whether we realize it or not, taking ANY life...is morally wrong, because everything has a purpose, even diseases...they root out the weak. However, I realize that with man's inate fear of death, they take steps to rid themselves of disease, thus prolonging their life to the exact same end...it makes no sense...

For billions of years, nature has had a way of taking care of things...birth, life death...this was the progression of things...sure, subphases like developement and shit took place, but the main point is that all things lived or died in a perfectly natural surrounding with out outside interfearance...the hunters hunted, the hunted were eaten..thsi has occured forever and a day. Wars were a thing of manly creation...and self defense was necessary only because men became uncivil. So...as you can see...man, although natural, holds many unnatural views about death...killing out of anger...spite...or for fun or sport...and just plain trying to avoid death all together through modern technology...suck it up and face it...it's going to happen.

Now...this woman with an unborn fetus in her womb...who is she that she can dictate whether or not that life has a chance to experience the world? Who gave her dominion over life and death? Nobody...your body, your choice...leave those choices to your body...and leave that life alone.

Cross Out.

~Zeh Black Cross

P.S. - Flame away my pro-choiceists, flame away.

You speak about how its out against rape in this post and then you talk about how we shold obey the laws of bature... Let me tell you.. Rape.. killing for dominance..... Suprresion of the weak.. ending a life that conflicts yours.. These are all things of nature.. That does not make them good.. We as people choose what is moral.. You dont agree wwith abortion.. Then dont have an abortion! Dont force your moral obligations on others..... We have risen from apes.. We can make logical desicons on our own.. Pretty soon we'll be able to control our own evolution... And NATURE has decided the things we do int he name in progress are good.. After all We have expanded our life some 40 years, and our species is very suited for survival..... We can see further, move faster, and do more than any other animal....... As for not takeing life..... It is alive yes ... But i dont care if you kill a being with no memories, thoughts or feelings........

At 8/7/05 08:20 AM, fenrus1989 wrote:

At 8/7/05 02:46 AM, Elfer wrote:

At 8/6/05 11:18 PM, xXxBlackCrossxXx wrote:

well your not making a baby to expierence with now aren't you. so in sense your letting something that doesn't exist right now not expierence life, your logic doesn't make sense.

I believe what he is saying is this.. every individual sperm and egg are just as much a human as an embryo.... So every time a couple Go without having sex and an egg is passed without fertilization.. That was a missed chace at life.....

I have changed my mind completely on abortion... maybe life isnt sacred all the time.

I now believe that it is an effective measure of natural selection.

(Not really, though....)
Claiming that the murder of an unborn child is justified because it is simply removing something that "is not a fully developed human being" and an altogether inconvenience makes no sense. If that were the standard to be upheld by the definition of abortion, then we should be able to "abort" children up until the point they are fully grown because sometimes it is necessary, especially when they are an heavy (financial or medical) burden to the mother and the mother's supposedly fundamental sense of "choice."

Selective abortion (as in abortion that doesnt deal with when the health of the mother in danger) is immoral and unexcusable. End of story.

I wonder if anyone has said this yet (In 17 pages...) but:

On a side note, being that this issue is very debatable...WOULD MASTURBATION COUNTS AS KILLING LIFE?

Yeah. Since you need a sperm and an egg to make life, everytime someone masturbates/ejaculates/release sperm without fertilising an egg, would it be considered killing the baby before it's formed, therefore KILLING LIFE OF A HUMAN?

So if you can destroy sperm, but you can't destroy it when it has been fertilised from 1-8 months...is that fair?

I'm not taking sides, because I know the moral issues involved...but just note that fact.

At 8/5/05 05:46 PM, PhysicsMafia wrote:

At 8/5/05 05:37 PM, Gingerwarrior wrote:
...............abortion is bad...

Perhaps your mothers should have had abortions b4 you lot were born.

i myself dont agree with abortion and up untill that point i was taking u seriously, but outbursts of hypocracy wont help u get ur point across.

I'm sorry to have offended you, i merely said that to get a point across, that none of us really wish that our mothers had an abortion, why should we wish it on someone else?

At 8/5/05 10:44 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 8/5/05 06:39 PM, SEXY_FETUS wrote: By that logic you've cut what life is down considerably. Life is not limited to thoughts and feelings.

Yeah, but thoughts and feelings are what set us apart and make us people. Thoughts and feelings are what truly defines the human condition.

One day it would have thoughts and feelings, in that case, don't think of it as killing someone, but killing something that will be someone.

At 8/6/05 12:31 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote: I have a question for religious people.. This is something I was pondering... Do you believe the soul is created at conception, or ds you believe the sperm and the ovum both have individual souls that unite itno one?

My knowledge on souls is very limited, but i think, as a religious person, that the soul is created at conception, and probably did not exists b4

At 8/7/05 01:23 PM, bulletskygod wrote: I wonder if anyone has said this yet (In 17 pages...) but:

On a side note, being that this issue is very debatable...WOULD MASTURBATION COUNTS AS KILLING LIFE?

Yes, masturbation is considered a sin. And it IS a sin. For what you´ve just said.
And if the Catholic Roman Church considers this as a sin, then it is a sin.

--revexe--

At 8/7/05 04:25 PM, revexe wrote: Yes, masturbation is considered a sin. And it IS a sin. For what you´ve just said.
And if the Catholic Roman Church considers this as a sin, then it is a sin.

--revexe--

Can someone please explain to what exactly God has against masturbation?

At 8/7/05 04:30 PM, -Fudge- wrote:

At 8/7/05 04:25 PM, revexe wrote: Yes, masturbation is considered a sin. And it IS a sin. For what you´ve just said.
And if the Catholic Roman Church considers this as a sin, then it is a sin.

--revexe--

Can someone please explain to what exactly God has against masturbation?

You aren't supposed to think any unwholesome thoughts.

At 8/7/05 01:23 PM, bulletskygod wrote: I wonder if anyone has said this yet (In 17 pages...) but:

On a side note, being that this issue is very debatable...WOULD MASTURBATION COUNTS AS KILLING LIFE?

Yeah. Since you need a sperm and an egg to make life, everytime someone masturbates/ejaculates/release sperm without fertilising an egg, would it be considered killing the baby before it's formed, therefore KILLING LIFE OF A HUMAN?

You're retarded.

Do you know what conception is? It's when the sperm fertilizes the egg. That's when life begins. Before that, no life is present.

At 8/6/05 11:18 PM, xXxBlackCrossxXx wrote: You have a spem and an egg...when the sperm is released into the vagina it travels up the tube and whatshit and fertilizes the egg...now...the fertilized egg begins to develop the embryo or whatever...now...it is growing...and developing. In order for something to grow and develope it MUST have living parts...thusly it is a life. Now...taking life intentionally is morally wrong...unless its for self preservation i.e. hunting for food(not game hunting) and self defense...also permissable in war.

Of course, as I previously posted in a seperate thread, morality is not very abundant in today's society. If you don't want a kid, don't have sex, it's as simple as that...end of topic. Now...if a woman was raped...yeah...I might be able to see possibly allowing an abortion...but the life growing inside her is not hers...sure the woman has a choice with what she can do to her body...but that life growing in her belly is not her body...it a seperate growing entity...it takes nurishment from her body, but it is not her body. All life is precious...whether we realize it or not, taking ANY life...is morally wrong, because everything has a purpose, even diseases...they root out the weak. However, I realize that with man's inate fear of death, they take steps to rid themselves of disease, thus prolonging their life to the exact same end...it makes no sense...

For billions of years, nature has had a way of taking care of things...birth, life death...this was the progression of things...sure, subphases like developement and shit took place, but the main point is that all things lived or died in a perfectly natural surrounding with out outside interfearance...the hunters hunted, the hunted were eaten..thsi has occured forever and a day. Wars were a thing of manly creation...and self defense was necessary only because men became uncivil. So...as you can see...man, although natural, holds many unnatural views about death...killing out of anger...spite...or for fun or sport...and just plain trying to avoid death all together through modern technology...suck it up and face it...it's going to happen.

Now...this woman with an unborn fetus in her womb...who is she that she can dictate whether or not that life has a chance to experience the world? Who gave her dominion over life and death? Nobody...your body, your choice...leave those choices to your body...and leave that life alone.

Cross Out.

~Zeh Black Cross

P.S. - Flame away my pro-choiceists, flame away.

What is xXxBlackCrossxXx Debating to ahcive? LIFE!!! He wants to prove to you that people should have a right to live, Is what he is standing for wrong in any way? To let someone else live, what are we asking for to let someone live? We live, why should anyone else be deprived the right?
None of us would wish it on ourselves would we? I wound't.

I hate to make such an example, but to get another point across:
One of two must die, the reason doen't matter, but you must choose who dies
The old lady, or the un-born child, i would not wish anyone would have to make such a desision, but which one is more worthy of life? One might pick the un-born child because it doesn't have anythought of it's own and hasn't experienced life yet, therefore what it doesn't know can't hurt it.
But, some might pick the old lady because she has had a full life, and it is the baby's turn to live.
But, you must never think that either desision is correct, because neither is more worthy of life, they are the same, one has just been through more, even though she might die soon anyway, it doesn't matter if either life is cut short!

At 8/7/05 12:37 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote:

You speak about how its out against rape in this post and then you talk about how we shold obey the laws of bature... Let me tell you.. Rape.. killing for dominance..... Suprresion of the weak.. ending a life that conflicts yours.. These are all things of nature.. That does not make them good.. We as people choose what is moral.. You dont agree wwith abortion.. Then dont have an abortion! Dont force your moral obligations on others..... We have risen from apes.. We can make logical desicons on our own.. Pretty soon we'll be able to control our own evolution... And NATURE has decided the things we do int he name in progress are good.. After all We have expanded our life some 40 years, and our species is very suited for survival..... We can see further, move faster, and do more than any other animal....... As for not takeing life..... It is alive yes ... But i dont care if you kill a being with no memories, thoughts or feelings........

Great...another Darwinist...wonderful...look, maybe you came from some asspicking fingersmelling lice eating treeswinging mammal, but I sure as hell didn't. Darwin himself even put down his theory on his death bed. But he said he'd rather believe in the impossible than believe in a God. But us coming from apes would stand to reason seeing as how we have limited mental capacity to grasp things like...oh, I don't know...what a LIFE is.

Cross Out

~Zeh Black Cross

At 8/7/05 04:25 PM, revexe wrote:

And if the Catholic Roman Church considers this as a sin, then it is a sin.

I like to go more with: If the bible considers it as a sin, then it is a sin.

At 8/7/05 05:02 PM, TimeFrame wrote:

I like to go more with: If the bible considers it as a sin, then it is a sin.

Yea, but don't you wish sometimes that sinning wasn't so AWESOME.

At 8/7/05 05:04 PM, GorillaUnit485 wrote:

Yea, but don't you wish sometimes that sinning wasn't so AWESOME.

most of the time it isnt, but sure.

At 8/7/05 12:37 PM, TheMartyr18 wrote: You speak about how its out against rape in this post and then you talk about how we shold obey the laws of bature... Let me tell you.. Rape.. killing for dominance..... Suprresion of the weak.. ending a life that conflicts yours.. These are all things of nature.. That does not make them good.. We as people choose what is moral.. You dont agree wwith abortion.. Then dont have an abortion! Dont force your moral obligations on others..... We have risen from apes.. We can make logical desicons on our own.. Pretty soon we'll be able to control our own evolution... And NATURE has decided the things we do int he name in progress are good.. After all We have expanded our life some 40 years, and our species is very suited for survival..... We can see further, move faster, and do more than any other animal....... As for not takeing life..... It is alive yes ... But i dont care if you kill a being with no memories, thoughts or feelings........

Now, what is TheMartyr18 debating to achive? DEATH for the convenience of others! and trying to say that abortion is alright. Now let's ignore the fact that we're talking about abortion for a moment, he is trying to prove that something is not worng, now there's something wrong with that to start with, if there is any doubt at all that something is right, then it will end up being wrong (morally speaking). And if i thought that abortion was ok, why not open a thread asking if killing is really wrong? i think we can all agree that abortion is the extermination of life, and how can a murder victim complain if he's dead? he has no feelings, and my motive means i benefit from his death and i can satisfy my concience by saying he's gone to a better place, and hey, he ain't complaining now is he?

And also TheMartyr18 i suppose you wouldn't mind if your mother had an abortion? you wouldn't have had any opinion about it at the time, so if you think it's ok on others then you would not mind it upon yourself, which shoudl mean you wouldn't mind being killed now because it wouldn't benefit someone else, what would be the difference between the extermination of your life now, to the extermination of your life then? Other than teh affect you've had on the people around you up to this point. (Not to freak you out or anything). We all die eventully, it's enevitable, but we all want to experience life while it lasts!!!

At 8/7/05 05:07 PM, TimeFrame wrote:

At 8/7/05 05:04 PM, GorillaUnit485 wrote:

Yea, but don't you wish sometimes that sinning wasn't so AWESOME.

most of the time it isnt, but sure.

If masturbation is a sin, then yes it is!