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great idea!!!

and i think in the front page the games must be post in a side of the page
and the movies in another side...

that could help.

I think it sounds like a good idea. I just hope that you can fund this idea for a long period of time.

woah, that's alot of cash.

I love you, newgrounds.

At 6/15/05 02:33 PM, MasterGehn wrote:
I like how you try to spew facts and statistics about NG as if you knew it like the back of your hand. You make snooty comments like, "According to my recent study..." and "whatever, my facts are correct..." You have all these assumptions and no really hard numbers to back up anything you're talking about. You seem to feel SO educated on what you're speaking of, and so sure of yourself. Then you get all sensitive when your comments get dismissed by someone who clearly knows more about the site and its workings than you do. Tone down your arrogance a little and just accept the idea that there might be more information about NG's system that you're unaware of.

Bitter, bitter bitter...

TRY to spew facts?

Are you accusing me of lying and having made up everything I wrote in order to further some anti gaming agenda? That's extremely nasty and unfair thinking. Could this be the problem everyone has with my posts? *sighs*

I don't know what to say except it only required about 10-20 minutes worth of work to do this. I can also assure you I made NO assumptions until I had already done the calculations.

It's just when I read the header post and the replies the general assumption was that games are and have been unfairly ignored here in Newgrounds for some time. I was curious if that was true so I checked it out and I discovered that it was not.

Anyone can do it. It's not about Tom or you or anyone else knowing more then me. If you think I was dishonest, instead of assuming it and looking down on me. Why didn't you just check it for yourself?

All you have to do is go to the
Newground archives
to get the information. In it you can see how many submissions there are (as I write this the amount stands at 60,004. NG keeps growing) you then can divide that up into a game or toon section. Then you can FURTHER divide it by pulling up all the daily winners in all five categories (you can also pull up turds of the week, review crew pics and others) and add them together, as I have done. It's not a matter of being 'snooty', I just looked at the numbers that NG itself provides to anyone that looks and did the math. It's extremely simple.

If there is some OTHER information that isn't included in this that may be relevant please share it. ( I do NOT consider looking at the top fifty relevant. It's got alot of mass voting and clicks surrounding authors to be a true indication of much except the flavor of the month ).

Oh and Psycho_Goldfish, great post, made me think. I'm rereading Newground history. Perhaps it was more about games then I thought. Still, in the end, it was a private showcase of one artist. It's two very different worlds, then and now, you can't really compare them and it would be unfair to try to entice people into make more games here just because you really like games and that's what you submitted when it was your private showcase or because of a vocal minority, clamoring for more.

From the numbers that I pulled up on the archives, while I would certainly agree that movies may more likely to get into some popular spots (like the top fifty due to fanboy interest that just doesn't happen as much with games), games are still placed in the 5 top daily awards at a slightly higher rate then pure numbers would suggest and it's CERTAINLY not lower. It would have to be lower by quite a bit if games were truly being shunned in general. SERIOUSLY, don't you or anyone else take my word for it. Go to the archives and look into it yourself.

Plus, keep in mind that some animations take months to create as well and can still lose out to the latest Foamy cartoon. It all depends on how far your willing to push yourself in either medium, either can take up alot of effort. Also, while crap animations are much more common then crap games (dress-up stuff *cough*) , keep in mind that their scores reflect that fact.

When push comes to shove, the basic facts are that games comprise less then one fifth of the total here in NG and the awards given are (gamers dreams of persecution notwithstanding) on par with that ratio. Games are NOT being shunned. They are NOT being ignored. They get the amount of recognition that that their percentage deserves. No more, no less. Making this split for the monthly awards DOES put an unfair focus on games, especially if you are giving them 5 spots, the same as movies. Two spots would be more appropriate until games take up a larger percentage of the total, it's not an unreasonable idea, please don't treat it as such. Why are you all so against it? That or don't do this new feature at all. Why is everyone so against the status quo?

I dont like games as much as movies. I think games can be very interesting if the maker spends time creating a refreshing and cool style with an original and addictive concept, but usually the submitted games dont seem to go any further than the megaman sidescroller, dress up or sim. There are exceptions though, like Johnny Rocketfingers, Devine Intervention and Alien Hominid, but they are very rare. Good creative movies seem to be a lot more common. Maybe because they simply get made more.
Movies dont get more attention than games viewwise, but scorewise they do better. I dont know why this is, perhaps because people get bored with a game after the first time and then vote it down? Also, outside NG movies are more appreciated. Online Flash contests usually only allow movies (with the exception of games of mordor). There is no real point complaining about all this, since afterall it are the viewers responsible for the situation and their will. Giving games a benefit would be unfair, but since they now get treated equally, i think this is a good solution.

Does this mean two $100 prizes??
The voters have to do twice the work :)

OK I DIDNT WANT TO POST AGAIN BUT

I think liljim kicks ass and thanks for the stats BAM!!!! right in your face!!!!! you know what that means - it means people dont CARE about the movies - yeah thats right people DONT CARE ABOUT MOVIES on ng- well i wont go that far to say that but hey - while everyone is yelling NOBODY CARES ABOUT GAMES ON NG I might as well yell NOBODY CARES ABOUT MOVIES. anyways now that I made no sense lemme repeat

liljim kicks all yall assses-- OOOOOOH yeah

and if you ever want to take a shot at any of my games go ahead you can call them crap!!!! but i guess it actually takes a good game for people to watch them/play - just liek a movie- but let me tell you - the rewards are greater to me thats why i stuck to programming although I had to animated etc as well especially for a living- cmon lets face it - after all this settles over
\
NG is about games and TOM and about TOM and his GAMES thats why he made games - cause its ABOUT HIM AND HIS GAMES so if you dont like that and think you are cool trying to upload some shit stick movie- why dont you try to be cool and make a game - afterall - HE MAKES GAMES NOT LONG MOVIES ABOUT PEOPLE FIGHTING IN STICK FORM - how the hell you you think NG turned from a few games to way more animations than games- i dunno thats a friggin big question but to me it's still a game site even no matter how many good or crap movies there are - I STILL CONSIDER NG A GAMESITE!!!!!!!! so take that one on the chin all you stick animatin fools - game makers got to take it on the chin to so there and by the way jim thats a chin shot to all us gamemakers but thanks for pointing out that our crap game art can beat crap movie art anyday hahaha////........

oh yeah - can we omit all sex-or -hentai related games from the games list - that would rock. I mean - like a blurb about penis is fine but- if its some stupid dating game I would hate to see that win especially cause they might tend to be popular- what happens when shit flash game makers learn flash and the public mass starts making hentai flash games. anyways

i also think it's boring AS HELL to watch a crappy animation - that why I usually dont bother to launch a flash movie - I figure I'm doing newgrounds a favor- yeah call me a racist.

Anyways I think it's easy to lauch a flash game - they are usually not that big (you can check the size yourself) so now maybe people will spend less time attracted to downloading huge crap sticks movie part 9,456 and part shit stick man part 124,345,234 maybe theyll launch a small mini game

HEY TOM ONE MORE COOL IDEA i know im too cool to give out ideas but heres one:

Have an award for smallest kilobyte/coolest games

(or two ideas)

Have an award for coolest made game - of a NG movie!!!! you know alot of us gamemakers wish we could draw or make that movie :) could spur some interesting partnerships

thats alll me brain good for for this second

OMG Pete you rock. all of the fags on ng who talk shit about the portal like they know whats up even though they signed up 2 days ago can suck that small dog's kitty-faced peener.

At 6/14/05 04:48 PM, FullyClothedMike wrote: Ugh!
I'm not looking forward to having to look at 10 submissions now.

I should expand on this.

I usually wait/forget about voting until the beginning of the month actually arrives. Then I watch loads of submissions, wriote really crappy reviews for them, and vote in a rush. I don't really look forward to it because it is very time-consuming, and I constantly worry that I've missed watching a really good flash and voted for one not as good.

At 6/16/05 02:47 PM, FullyClothedMike wrote:

. Then I wriote really crappy reviews for them...

*write.

Cool...Cant wait

Holy crap 30,000 a year!!! Where do you get the income from lol

It's a very good idea to keep the games up-to-date, because it's hard to find more recent games... Talking about that, does someone know where I could find that game where you need to follow the music by hitting 2 drums and clapping your hands? It was once on the frontpage, but I'm not able to find it... There was 2 songs available. :(

I think that game is called Weezer Jam Session. ROCK ON!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOT!!!!!!

I think this is awesome, you see huge companies giving away extremely cheap prices on sweepstakes to encourage consumers to buy their product, and even though newgrounds keeps growing and will keep growing either way, Tom chooses to reward its contributors in a great way. Viva la Newgrounds!

great idea. I always see about 1 game on the front page for every 5 or 6 movies. we should really give the games a chance since they take even longer to make. I hope to see some good game makers get more prizes.

i like clubing seals. that whale one is hard

At 6/16/05 11:16 AM, liljim wrote:
Alright, you seem to be missing the princinpal point here in that Newgrounds first flourished as a gaming website. Its grass roots are with games. That's what made it popular.

Let's now see how many games score over 3.0 compared with how many movies score with over 3.0

Games: 3,817/11,329 = 33.69%.
Movies: 17,718/49,219 = 40.00%.

Do we continue to let games developers feel neglected by our audience of voters ... or should we let game developers continue to be disappointed with the results of the monthly voting to a point where they peter out on the site completely? Let's see how the averages compare on who comes to see each type of submission on the site in total:

Movies average views per submission: 15,164.85
Games average views per submission: 89,177.67

Wow, that last stat about the average views per submission is really impressive. I had no idea that games were viewed so much more then movies and you say they are ignored? Your ascertains make even less sense to me now after seeing that.

As for the rest, nice try but no dice. I have covered all of this in previous posts but one more time (and I hope this to be the last time) I will repeat it.

No, I did not miss this principal of Tom opening up the site for games... HIS games! That's what he does, games. So what? Why is this important to it's present state? What does one have to do with the other? I am sure that if Tom had had other interests (like in toon movies) that would have worked for him as well and things would have ended up being similar (if not exact). Am I right? Impossible to say but there has to be more to him then making games and I have to believe that quality (drive, ambition...whatever) would shine through.

When Newgrounds evolved. He could have stuck to his gaming roots but decided on a grander vision. Movies and toons could have been banned altogether. They weren't, he opened the floodgates and let the free market happen. Which also made it the success it today. Movies are just as important as games, either alone is MUCH less effective. I'm not sure why the past is the point. As far as I can see it has no bearing on what is. So why not keep the talk to after the portal was automated. Anything before that just doesn't seem important to this debate.

Your other 'key' point is the rating system. I have already stipulated that movies get higher ratings over the long term for varying reasons. Why are we on this again? However, it did make me check a few things. Games marked under 2 is actually slightlyhigher then for movies (and anything below 1 is less then 2% of the total. Not worth bothering to work out). So the rating divide is actually larger then I thought it was. Interesting, I'm big enough to admit I was wrong to assume that games in general did not score in the low end as much, making up for the lack in the high end. That said...

SO WHAT???

What does this have to do with anything? Sure, the games get lower scores but they are also viewed six TIMES more (thanks for telling me that). That's certainly a trade off, a HUGE trade off. While movies rate slightly higher from a small 3% of the total, game developers know they are being viewed by many, MANY more people and their stuff is getting out there beyond NG DESPITE their lower rank (that will not change anyway no matter how much money you give a few of them). I don't know about you but that would seem to be adequate compensation to me. Wouldn't you rather have 6 times as many views then a mesially extra point in your score which would STILL put you in the deep depths of Newgrounds generally? The only way to solve their lack of visibility is to fix up the collections (which is finally being done), thanks for that!

Another point, games can lead to deals that have not been done with the toons to my knoledge. Alien Hominid is the most widely known success story but I also know that Ryan Khatam has 'been commissioned to create more Johnny Rocketfingers games' (he said so on his website). He's getting paid to do a sequel to the game he submitted here. Sure, hitting the jackpot like this is rare but has even one animation had so big a prize?

It's really interesting that we look at the exact same numbers here but come to such different conclusions. I can only assume you are nursing a grudge against the 'establishment' that you believe is keeping games down.

Dispite all this, here's the thing, it doesn't matter what the long term scores are. What's important is the daily awards. Everything we've just said up until now is pointless if you don't deal with it.

Obviously, enough people gave good scores to shoot games up, at least long enough that despite their lower eventual ranking they still earn the same number of awards (percentage wise) that movies get. Roughly one fifth. They submit one fifth of the entries, they get one fifth of the daily awards.

The people that get these awards surely cannot complain they are being ignored personally. So they are unlikely to stop their work in despair now, aren't they? Winning cash is also VERY unlikely to boost the long term score of their game. It get's very little publicity, one post and is voted on by a mere 2000 people. Such a small fraction of our daily traffic.Therefore liljim, your stated reason for this change can only be considered bogus.

Games are NOT ignored!
If they were TRULY shunned then how is it possible they win as many daily awards as they do?
Can't answer that can you?
You don't even try.
I'm getting sick of repeating it add nauseam.
All you can do is try to work around it because apparently it's so devastating that if you acknowledged it you know you would have to concede the point.

I will try and not respond to any more of you people imagining you can rebut my posts if you don't deal with this fact. It's pointless.

PS. Just one more thing, can you at least consider my idea? Obviously you are going to split the awards so I'll stop arguing against it but why does it have to be the same number as movies? It's clearly unfair to have 1/5th of the choices get 1/2 of the cash awards. Wouldn't... Okay, 2 prizes get the same goal across and if/when more games win then you can increase the number of cash awards to games. Can you at least think about it? Your all so busy trying to shoot me down to consider this.

Tom that will be an awsome Idea $ 250 for best games will be sweet

You know Toma, I'd like to ask who died very recently and made you scholar of Newgrounds. Your talking shit about stuff you don't know shit about. Jesus christ your a dweeb.

Programmers suck,.. They should win a barrel of stinky fish. >:(

not only does that all sound awsome...but does this mean that my Tengu Dress Up game will have a much higher chance of gettin into a dress up section? personally i think it has been overlooked, and it is a good game 9im not just saying this cause i made it either...)

anyway, if u read this tom, heres the link and i hope it gets in the section!

newgrounds has changed my life!!! thanks so much tom.

Tengu Dress Up

Great idea Tom, I can make good games using other languages. However, I don't have flash. Dang.

That's a Awesome idea Tom. The games on NG definitely need to be showcased more. Becausse creating games can take a lot of time and need to be showcased for all the hard work.