Isreal

In a previous topic, I was asked for my opinion on Isreal. Well, here it is. Isreal is SHIT. In 1948, Jews living in Palestine declared themselves and independant nation. At that time, Jews peacefully co-existed with Arabs in palestine. The palestinians were sure the new country would not be recognized, but then, Lo and behold, It was. Palestinians were thrown off land their ancestors had inhabited since biblical times. All because of the Holocaust (It is odd, however, that the Nazis offered to recognize a Jewish state, but the Jews refused.) Because 1.4 million Jews died in WW2 from disease and famine, They think it gives them the right to kick the Arabs off their land.
As far as the "Holocaust" all evidence to support it is sketchy and conradicary. The Pictures could have been pictures of anyone, but Jews calim they are thses so-called "death camps". I will admit that the Nazis did put jews into work camps, and it was wrong.or a few thousand years, the Celts lived fairly peacefully all over Europe. But then the Romans came. The Celts were all but exterminated by the Romans, an were pushed into Ireland and Scotland, where they reimaned for few hundred more years. During those years, they were constantly persecuted, murdered, raped, and generally looked down upon by "righteous" Jew..Err, I mean "Christians" After the Celts eventually converted, Bloodthirsty kings like Edward The Longshanks led constant pogroms on Scotland, raping, pillaging and murdering Scotland to it's knees. But thanks to the indomitable spirit of Celtic people (and some good leadership) Scotland got an independant nation. Ireland had to fight MUCH longer to get their nation. Eventually, Scotland joined the UK. Now skip forward a few hundred years. Scotish and Irish immigrants to America were forced to take jobs in mines and factories, were paid next to nothing, and lived in dirty slums. But they pulled themselves up. Now people of Scotish and Irish decent are usually hard working, hoest people. Now lets look at the Jewish "suffering"

Well, After putting up with years of Jewish ritual murders, and rapes, the Arabs got pissed off and beat the shit out of the Jews, forcing them into a very small strip of land. Then after the Crusades, and more Arab attacks, Jews started fleeing to Europe. After settling in Europe a while, they gained an almost European look. But they did not inherit European religion. Jews refered to Gentiles(non-jew)as "goyim" (Meaning Cattle)They conisder themselves to be "gods chosen people" and call gentile women the equivalent of "meat that has fallen on the floor" After about 200 years of Jewish shit, Europeans got pissed off, too. They starting waging pogroms on jews, murdering their boys and girls just like the jews did as a rite for their sick religion. Eventually, the remaining jews were able to sieze positions of power and brainwashed the general public (This didn't happen untill about the 1900s) Jews still hold key positions in the media and government today. When the Jews were finally given their own country, they violated the UN agreement almost right away by trying to force the Palestinians off their land. When the Palestinains tried to object, the Jews went to war with them. This "war" (If it could be called that) was pathetic. It was Palestine with rocks and Assault rifles VS Isreal with American tanks, jets, and bombs. After Isreal won this "war" (In which, may I add, they EXTENSIVLEY used so called "terrorist tactics") They thought the Palestinians, the proper owners of that land, would just pack up the land that their father and his father before him had inhabited. But that didnt happen. Palestine fought back the only way it could. Isreal cracked down, and their blockade of Palestine (Something the Jewsmedia will NEVER mention) has caused the death of well over 13 Million Palestinians (Way more then the 6 million lie the jews thought up) and even today, It is shown as Palestine=Bad guy, Isreal=Righteous, Benevolent, and Just. The Palestinians are in a struggle for their very lives, and look what they get for it.

[Commander-K25]

You truly believe all this, don't you?

What happened is that Jews began to move into Palestine during the British mandate and began to try to set up their own state. This was militantly opposed by their Arab neighbors, they simply HATE Jews. They are pure and simple, Hitler-esque anti-semites. They've been taught that all their lives and they grow knowing nothing about Jews excpe that they are evil, dirty horrible people that must be exterminated and driven into the sea. This is preached daily in mosques across the Arab world.

Here's a little history lesson devoid of your Arafat-like rhetoric:

Beginnings of the Israeli State The state of Israel is the culmination of nearly a century of activity in Zionism. Following World War I, Great Britain received (1922) Palestine as a mandate from the League of Nations. The struggle by Jews for a Jewish state in Palestine had begun in the late 19th cent. and had become quite active by the 1930s and 40s. The militant opposition of the Arabs to such a state and the inability of the British to solve the problem eventually led to the establishment (1947) of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine, which devised a plan to divide Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a small internationally administered zone including Jerusalem. The General Assembly adopted the recommendations on Nov. 29, 1947. The Jews accepted the plan; the Arabs rejected it. As the British began to withdraw early in 1948, Arabs and Jews prepared for war. On May 14, 1948, when the British high commissioner for Palestine departed, the state of Israel was proclaimed at Tel Aviv. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq invaded Israel, as most Palestinian Arabs fled from Jewish territory. By the time armistice agreements were reached (Jan., 1949), Israel had increased its holdings by about one-half. Jordan annexed the Arab-held area adjoining its territory, and Egypt occupied a coastal strip in the southwest, including Gaza.

(Egypt and other Arab nations actually OCCUPIED Palestine first!)

A government was formed at Tel Aviv, with Chaim Weizmann as president and David Ben-Gurion as prime minister. The capital was moved (Dec., 1949) to Jerusalem to strengthen Israel's claim to that city. Following the Lausanne Conference of 1949, Israel allowed the return of 150,000 Arab refugees, mostly to reunite families. One major aim of the government was to gather in all Jews who wished to immigrate to Israel. This led to the 1950 Law of the Return, which provided for free and automatic citizenship for all immigrant Jews. Border incidents with Egypt, Syria, and Jordan continued. Trouble in the Gaza area reached new heights in the mid-1950s despite UN intervention, and in 1956, Egyptian President Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. On Oct. 29, 1956, Israel made a preemptive attack on Egyptian territory and within a few days had conquered the Gaza Strip and the Sinai peninsula, while Britain and France invaded the area of the Suez Canal. Israel eventually yielded to strong pressure from the United States, the USSR, and the United Nations and removed its troops from Sinai in Nov., 1956, and from Gaza by Mar., 1957, as UN forces were sent to the Sinai and Gaza to keep peace between Egypt and Israel. Through this war, Israel succeeded in keeping open its shipping lanes via Elat and the Gulf of Aqaba to the Red Sea. In 1962, Israel became the scene of the celebrated trial of Adolf Eichmann. In 1963, Ben-Gurion resigned as prime minister and was succeeded in that office by Levi Eshkol. Eshkol had to cope with increased guerrilla incursions into Israel from Syria and the shelling of Israeli villages by the Syrian army from the Golan Heights.

In May, 1967, Nasser mobilized the Egyptian army in Sinai. The UN then acceded to his demand to withdraw from the Israeli-Egyptian border, where it had been stationed since 1956. Egypt next blockaded the Israeli port of Elat (on the Gulf of Aqaba) by closing the Strait of Tiran. On June 5, 1967, Israel struck against Egypt and Syria; Jordan subsequently attacked Israel. In six days, Israel occupied the Gaza Strip and the Sinai peninsula of Egypt, the Golan Heights of Syria, and the West Bank and Arab sector of E Jerusalem (both under Jordanian rule), thereby giving the conflict the name of the Six-Day War. Israel unified the Arab and Israeli sectors of Jerusalem, and Arab guerrillas stepped up their incursions, operating largely from Jordan. After Eshkol's death in 1969, Golda Meir became prime minister. There followed an inconclusive period when there was neither peace nor war in the area. On Oct. 6, 1973, on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, Egypt and Syria attacked Israeli positions in the Sinai and the Golan Heights. Other Arab states sent contingents of soldiers to aid in the attack on Israel.

(The question is, why are they trying so hard to eliminate Israel? Why are they bent on exterminating them? Israel never did anything to them other than defend itself from it's very first weeks as a nation when it was immediately attacked. Why do they want to kill them? Pure hatred.)

(Continued below)

[Commander-K25]

(Continued from above)

Egypt succeeded in sending troops in force across the Suez Canal to the east bank before being halted by Israeli troops. Toward the end of the fighting, the Israelis managed to send their own troops across the Suez Canal to the west bank, encircling Egypt's Third Army on the east bank and clearing a path to Cairo. They also drove the Syrians even further back toward Damascus. A cease-fire called for by the UN Security Council on Oct. 22 and 23 went into effect shortly thereafter. Attempts at Peace In Dec., 1973, the first Arab-Israeli peace conference opened in Geneva, Switzerland, under UN auspices. An agreement to disengage Israeli and Egyptian forces was reached in Jan., 1974, largely through the shuttle diplomacy mediation of U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Israeli troops withdrew several miles into the Sinai, a UN buffer zone was established, and Egyptian forces reoccupied the east bank of the Suez Canal and a small, adjoining strip of land in the Sinai. A similar agreement between Israel and Syria was achieved in May, 1974, again through the efforts of Kissinger. Under its terms, Israeli forces evacuated the Syrian lands captured in the 1973 war (while continuing to hold most of the territory conquered in 1967, such as the Golan Heights) and a UN buffer zone was created. Golda Meir resigned and was succeeded (1974) by Yitzhak Rabin, who formed a coalition government. In 1977, the Likud party under the leadership of Menachem Begin defeated the Labor party for the first time in Israeli elections. As prime minister, Begin strongly supported the development of Jewish settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories and opposed Palestinian sovereignty. Egypt began peace initiatives with Israel in late 1977, when Egyptian President Sadat visited Jerusalem. A year later, with the help of U.S. President Jimmy Carter, terms of peace between Egypt and Israel were negotiated at Camp David, Md. (see Camp David Accords). A formal treaty, signed on Mar. 26, 1979, in Washington, D.C., granted full recognition of Israel by Egypt, opened trade relations between the two countries, returned the Sinai to Egyptian control (completed in 1982), and limited Egyptian military buildup in the Sinai. The 1980s to the Present Israeli troops briefly invaded (1979) Lebanon in an unsuccessful attempt to eliminate Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) bases and forces used in raids on N Israel. On June 6, 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon in a second attempt. Israeli troops advanced to Beirut and surrounded the western part of the city, which housed PLO headquarters, and a siege ensued. Israeli troops began a gradual move out of Lebanon (completed in 1985) after PLO forces withdrew from Beirut. A 6-mi (10-km) deep security zone within S Lebanon was established to protect N Israeli settlements. Begin had been returned to office in 1981, but he resigned in 1983 and was replaced by Likud's Yitzhak Shamir. Undecisive majorities in the 1984 elections led to a sharing of the prime ministership by Shamir and Shimon Peres of the Labor party. Shamir, who regained sole prime ministership after the 1988 elections, strongly upheld the policy of increased Jewish settlement in the occupied territories. Large numbers of emigrants from Ethiopia and, primarily, the Soviet Union increased Israel's population by nearly 10% in three years (1989-92), leading to increased unemployment and a lack of housing. In Dec., 1987, a popular Arab uprising (Intifada) began against Israeli rule in the occupied territories. During the Persian Gulf War in early 1991, Israel suffered Iraqi missile attacks, as Iraq unsuccessfully attempted to disrupt the allied coalition and widen the war. Peace talks between Israel, Syria, Lebanon, and a joint Jordanian-Palestinian delegation began in Aug., 1991. Rabin reentered the political scene in 1992, becoming prime minister after the defeat of the Likud party and the establishment of a Labor-led coalition. He pursued Arab-Israeli peace negotiations, in which significant progress was made.

(Continued below)

[Commander-K25]

(Continued from above)

In 1993, Israel and the PLO signed an accord providing for joint recognition and for limited Palestinian self-rule in the Gaza Strip and Jericho. In 1995, Israel and the PLO agreed on a transition to Palestinian self-rule in most of the West Bank, although acts of terrorism continued to darken Israeli-Palestinian relations. In 1994 a treaty with Jordan ended the 46-year-old state of war between the two nations. In Nov., 1995, Rabin was assassinated by a right-wing Israeli extremist who opposed the West Bank peace accord with the PLO; Peres, who was foreign minister, became prime minister. In early 1996, Israel was hit by a series of suicide bombs, and Shi'ite Muslims launched rocket attacks into Israel from Lebanon. Retaliating, Israel blockaded the port of Beirut and launched a series of attacks on targets in S Lebanon. The 1996 elections, in which the prime minister was elected directly for the first time, resulted in a narrow victory for Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, who opposed Labor's land-for-peace deals. In an attempt to allay fears about Israel's future policies, Netanyahu pledged to continue the peace process. After setbacks and delays, most of Hebron was handed over to Palestinian control in Jan., 1997, and, under an accord signed in 1998, Israel agreed to withdraw from additional West Bank territory, while the Palestinian Authority pledged to take stronger measures to fight terrorism. Further negotiations over territory, however, were essentially stalled. In the May, 1999, elections, Labor (renamed One Israel) returned to power under Ehud Barak, a former army chief of staff. He formed a broad-based coalition government, promising to ease tensions between secular and ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel, as well as to move the peace process forward. In September, Barak and Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader, signed an agreement to finalize their borders and determine the status of Jerusalem within a year; Israel also began implementation of a plan to hand over additional West Bank territory, which was completed in Mar., 2000. Barak's coalition was weakened in May, 2000, when three right-of-center parties pulled out of the government. In the same month, Israeli forces withdrew from the buffer zone that had long been maintained in S Lebanon. In July, negotiations in the United States between Israel and the Palestinians ended without success. Israeli-Palestinian relations turned extremely acrimonious when a September visit by Ariel Sharon to the Haram esh-Sherif (the Temple Mount to Jews) in Jerusalem sparked riots that escalated into a new, ongoing cycle of violence in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Israel itself.

(All he did was make a visit and the Palestinians used it as an excuse to start a whole new wave of murder and terror.)

Barak resigned in Dec., 2000, in an attempt to reestablish a electoral mandate, but he was trounced in the Feb., 2001, election by Ariel Sharon, who formed a national unity government. Bibliography See J. Garcia-Granados, The Birth of Israel (1948); D. Ben-Gurion, Israel: Years of Challenge (1965); E. Orni and E. Efrat, Geography of Israel (3d ed. 1971); S. N. Eisenstadt, Israeli Society (1971); A. Perlmutter, Military and Politics in Israel (2d ed. 1977); H. M. Sachar, A History of Israel (1979); C. Herzog, The Arab-Israeli Wars (1982); S. McBride, ed., Israel in Lebanon (1983); A. Arian, Politics in Israel (1985); Y. Ben-Porath, ed., The Israeli Economy (1986); B. Kimmerling, ed., The Israeli State and Society (1988); B. Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (1988); M. Mandelbaum, Israel and the Occupied Territories (1988); T. Parker, The Road to Camp David (1989); S. Segev, Crossing the Jordan: Israel's Hard Road to Peace (1998); B. Morris, Righteous Victims (1999).

From HistoryChannel.com

-------------------------------------------------------

Israel has been willing to talk peace time and time again, and has had many different leaders and policies, but there has been only one constant throughout the violence and destruction, Yassir Arafat and the PLO. Coincidence? I think not.

OK, but let us focus on the point of: Why does Isreal deserve a country? What did they do to deserve one? And, for that matter, What did Palestine do to get kicked out of their country?
Jews claim they have suffered more than any other race, which is simply not true. Take my example of the Celts.
They Fought for their country. What Isreal (Or should I say Isreal using our stuff) did wasn't fighting at all.
So they didnt fight for their land, Now, before Isreal, that land switched hands between the Turks, Saracens, Crusaders and Byzantines. Isreal NEVER occupied it (At least, not in recorded history)

So, They didnt fight for it, and they wern't the first owners of the land, So, What did they do for it? Absolutley nothing. So, Why do they have it?

Now, Let's look at the Talmud for a while, shall we? Then we can learn the real reason for Jewish "persecution". Below I will list some verses from the Talmud (Which is, in case you dont know, the Jewish holy book)

Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly."

Libbre David 37: "If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death."

Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

Hmm, And then the Jews wonder why Arabs hate them.
I could go even deeper, But you should really pick up a copy of the Talmud.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/26/02 01:06 AM, FlattusMaximus wrote: OK, but let us focus on the point of: Why does Isreal deserve a country? What did they do to deserve one?

It's not something they did, it's something people did to them. Anti-semitism was wideapread, not just in Germany but across Europe and the world. When many Jews tried to flee Europe before WWII, most countries refused to take them because they didn't want Jews. They saw the creation of Israel as a haven where they could finally be free of the centuries old persecution and genocide that had been wrought upon them by a world that didn't want them and outright hated them. All they asked for was a sliver of desert...

And, for that matter, What did Palestine do to get kicked out of their country?

That is the great myth of this whole issue. They never were kicked out of their home. The areas that the Jews originally settled was desert, nothing, nada, wasteland. They cultivated it so well though that there is actually a visible "green-line" between the Jewish settled land in Israel and the Muslim controlled land of Syria.

Jews claim they have suffered more than any other race, which is simply not true. Take my example of the Celts.

The Celts fought off and on with the English over cernturies. The Jews lost over 6 million in 6 years. On some days at Auschwitz, over 10,000 would be killed in less than 24 hours. Gassed, shot, hung, burned alive in big pits or crematories. It was brutality on a scale unmatched in history.

They Fought for their country. What Isreal (Or should I say Isreal using our stuff) did wasn't fighting at all.

Define "fighting." They fought for their land during the time of the British mandate.

So they didnt fight for their land, Now, before Isreal, that land switched hands between the Turks, Saracens, Crusaders and Byzantines. Isreal NEVER occupied it (At least, not in recorded history)

Never occupied it? That was the land that they originally owned and ruled. They is their homeland, where Judaism began. It was taken from them by the Romans and then the Muslims invaders, who were then conquered by the Crudsaders, who where then forced out again by the Muslims.

Now, Let's look at the Talmud for a while, shall we? Then we can learn the real reason for Jewish "persecution". Below I will list some verses from the Talmud (Which is, in case you dont know, the Jewish holy book)

Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly."

Libbre David 37: "If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death."

Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

Hmm, And then the Jews wonder why Arabs hate them.
I could go even deeper, But you should really pick up a copy of the Talmud.

Ah, so the Arabs are justified in hating others not through their actions but through their holy books...

[Slizor]

It's not something they did, it's something people did to them. Anti-semitism was wideapread, not just in Germany but across Europe and the world. When many Jews tried to flee Europe before WWII, most countries refused to take them because they didn't want Jews. They saw the creation of Israel as a haven where they could finally be free of the centuries old persecution and genocide that had been wrought upon them by a world that didn't want them and outright hated them. All they asked for was a sliver of desert...

They asked for an entire country, more than they actually got.

And, for that matter, What did Palestine do to get kicked out of their country?

That is the great myth of this whole issue. They never were kicked out of their home. The areas that the Jews originally settled was desert, nothing, nada, wasteland. They cultivated it so well though that there is actually a visible "green-line" between the Jewish settled land in Israel and the Muslim controlled land of Syria.

Yeah, I mean what do they call that main desert...Jersualem?

Never occupied it? That was the land that they originally owned and ruled. They is their homeland, where Judaism began. It was taken from them by the Romans and then the Muslims invaders, who were then conquered by the Crudsaders, who where then forced out again by the Muslims.

And they took it from someone else. It goes on and on and on. Also, I seem to remember that the Gentiles got there at about the same time as the Jews...

Ah, so the Arabs are justified in hating others not through their actions but through their holy books...

Ooh, don't forget their actions...I mean the Israelis never took land from the Arabs....

At 6/26/02 01:53 AM, Commander-K25 wrote: At 6/26/02 01:06 AM, FlattusMaximus wrote

Jews claim they have suffered more than any other race, which is simply not true. Take my example of the Celts.

The Celts fought off and on with the English over cernturies. The Jews lost over 6 million in 6 years. On some days at Auschwitz, over 10,000 would be killed in less than 24 hours. Gassed, shot, hung, burned alive in big pits or crematories. It was brutality on a scale unmatched in history.

Yet another midnless believer in the holocaust myth. Alright, I think you need a little history lesson here.
When Hitler came to power, any jews that wanted to leave, Could. Hell, Germany even offered to recognize a country for the Jews. Those Jews that did not chose to leave were left un-molested for a few years, untill Germany was in desperate need of workers. At this time, they built work camps in which they had a workforce of POWs, Slavs, The handicapped, and Jews.
While Germans did put SOME Jews into these work camps (Only ones accused of crimes) they were by no means a for massextermination. In fact, the "gas chambers" that were made up were not possible at that time. The technoligy didn't exist to make an air-tight chamber, and also, The gas allegedley used by the Germans (Zyklon B) was used to kill lice. It would have taken about 6 hours to kill someone with this gas.

Also, While "historians" speak of giant crematoriums (Another lie) Ellie Weisel (The original "holocaust survivor") said that people were not gassed or shot, but thrown alive into huge ditches full of fire. This could not have happened, either. Have you ever dropped a steak in the fire? It takes it a LONG time to burn to ashes. Also, a fire of this magnatude would require loads of fuel. Fuel was something Germany was short on. Also, These fires would have produced massive amounts of smoke, yet no smoke was ever seen by the daily Biritsh Recon flights above Auchwitz. Other "Holocaust Survivors" claim such outlandish things as mass electrocution, and dropping people into vats of boiling water.

Now, let us look at the Crematorium lie. A crematora can only burn 1 person every few hours. After 1 person has been cremated, it must be completley cooled and cleaned. It takes about 4 hours to Cremate someone, and about 2 or 3 to cool and clean the Crematora. So that makes 1 person every 6-7 hours. There is absolutley NO WAY the Germans could have cremated 10,000 people a day. Have you ever seen Auchwitz? It has 2 very small Crematora. There is NO WAY that the germans could have built Crematora large enough to cremate 10,000 a day. Now, let's say it was possible. 10,000 people a day would make lots of Ash, yet after several excavations at Auchwitz, none has ever been found.

While Auchwitz wasn't a mass execution camp, It was still wrong for Germans to put people there. I will admit that. Jews have suffered, I will admit that, too. But They haven't suffered more than anyone else.
Maybe if Jews would lose their Superiority complex, they wouldn't be "persecuted"

[Slizor]

Y'know fat is a type of fuel.

At 6/26/02 03:11 PM, Slizor wrote: Y'know fat is a type of fuel.

It takes fuel to light the fat. It would take a fuel at least as potent as Gasoline to start a human on fire. And the Germans wern't going to waste gas torching some inmates.

[Commander-K25]

You're are seriously deluded if you believe that the Holocaust was a myth.

First of all, what about all the survivors? Are you misguided enough to believe in some "worldwide Zionist conspiracy" to fabricate the deaths of 6 million? I recently listened to a Holocaust survivor tell his story and it was horrifying beyond belief. Nobody would make up a story like that, it woulnd't be believable enough. They would tone it down to a level of credibility. The sheer scale of what went on assures that it is not a lie. This man was taken to the camps as a young teenager and watched his father starve to death within sight of a warehouse of food, except it was food for the Germans. His work at the camp was to go around pulling out teeth and cutting off fingers for gold fillings and rings of the gassing victims that lay in the hundreds and thousands when the gas chamber was finished. The horrors that he and millions of others experienced is unimaginable.

Second, why did the Nazis even confess to it? Most Nazi leaders after the war denied, but their subordinates sold them out. As Adolf Eichmann, the planner of much of the Holocaust said, "I shall jump into my grave laughing, for the fact that I have the murder of millions on my hands is of the greatest satisfaction to me."

Third, where did these 6 million people go? If they weren't killed, then where are they? They all had families, friends and associates that survived and have proof of their existence. Where are they?

Fourth, Jews were not allowed to leave, they were purposely and deliberately forced into ghettos to await shipment to the camps.

Fifth, gassing and cremation are effective weapons of mass killing. They used gasses like Zyklon B beacuse it was so effective. It was used originally as a rat poison. As for disposing of the bodies, sometimes they were simply put into one big mass grave, or burned in a pit or cremated via the oven-filled buildings.

Sixth, if Auschwitz and other camps were simply, "detention centers" for criminals, then why did they have gas chambers and crematories? You can't deny they existed, some are still there, you can go and see them. There are also pages and pages of plans and documents referring to these facilities and to the "Final Solution."

Browse a few of these links:

A Paper on the Effects of Zyklon B

Nazis' Statements on the Holocaust

Of course, not all were buried...

An analysis of crematorium capacity

If there were no gas chambers, then why these orders...

Blueprints of the chambers

"Some of the first Americans to enter the camp vomited as their eyes beheld what their minds could not absorb -- bodies stacked in obscene anonymity, the barely living whimpering among the corpses, bunks full of shaven-headed, emaciated creatures who had wizened into skeletal apparitions. American soldiers put on film the scenes in rooms full of naked, unburied corpses, piled ten feet high."

Bodies at the Bergen-Belsen camp:

Gas chambers DID exist, But they were used for Zyklon B. Zyklon B is mostly harmless, and does not require an air-tight chamber. The few crematora that did exist were used to dispose of those who died of disease, starvation etc. As far as the surviors, Most Non-Jewish inmates say they never saw anyone being murdered at Auchwitz. Also, Many of those "gas chambers" were SHOWERS. Also, Auchwitz had a swimming pool, inmate singing classes, a movie theatre, a chapel, maternity wards, medical facilities, and even a merit system. When a prisioner worked long enough with no mis conduct, he was released from Auchwitz.
Now about Hoess' "confession" Hoess had his testicles crushed by British MPs, He had his chest burned with ciggarettes, was put on stretching racks, had thumb screws used on him, and probably many other forms of torutre that his Jewish captors thought up. Hoess had many in-accuracies in his confession. He said that his men went into the chambers with no gas masks while smoking ciggarettes. Zyklon B is very flammable. He also said such things as the lie that 10,000 were killed in 1 day.

Do you believe everything that the Jewsmedia tells you? I think you should really get mind of your own instead of swallowing what they force feed the american public.

Those blueprints are shit. They are too small to read, and could have applied to any building. Also, Those special orders were refering to the chambers used for Zyklon B. Not only that, but The Nikzor project is affiliated with the terrorist group ADL. Yet again, those pictures of the dead could have been anywhere.
How do you know they are not pictures from a Russian POW camp? Or a Japanese one? There is no huge sign saying "AUCHWITZ, OVER 6 MILLION KILLED" in any of those pictures. The ADL has a very weak argument when It comes to the holocaust, they usually resort to calling the other guy a Neo-Nazi and saying "Were you there or something?" (Like they were....)

[Commander-K25]

At 6/27/02 08:34 PM, FlattusMaximus wrote: Gas chambers DID exist, But they were used for Zyklon B.

If they existed, then for what purpose if not execution?

Zyklon B is mostly harmless, and does not require an air-tight chamber. The few crematora that did exist were used to dispose of those who died of disease, starvation etc.

As far as the surviors, Most Non-Jewish inmates say they never saw anyone being murdered at Auchwitz.

They never "saw" anyone being murdered, they just saw lines of women and children and those too old or weak to work get filed into buildings and never come out again. Later they saw smoke. So I guess that most technically never "saw" anyone being murdered, they just saw their friends and family disappear never to be seen again except as a cloud of smoke.

Also, Many of those "gas chambers" were SHOWERS. Also, Auchwitz had a swimming pool, inmate singing classes, a movie theatre, a chapel, maternity wards, medical facilities, and even a merit system. When a prisioner worked long enough with no mis conduct, he was released from Auchwitz.

Right, that's why the Allies released all those emaciated, diseased and dying prisoners at the end of the war. They all were treated so well that it was more like an episode of Hogan's Heroes.

Now about Hoess' "confession" Hoess had his testicles crushed by British MPs, He had his chest burned with ciggarettes, was put on stretching racks, had thumb screws used on him, and probably many other forms of torutre that his Jewish captors thought up.

Evidence?

Hoess had many in-accuracies in his confession.

Such as what?

He said that his men went into the chambers with no gas masks while smoking ciggarettes. Zyklon B is very flammable.

Once again, why did they need gas chambers if they weren't mass murdering people? For executing criminals, a hanging would have, and often did, suffice.

Do you believe everything that the Jewsmedia tells you?

No, I just don't believe everything that the Neo-Nazi media tells me.

Even without Hoess, what about Eichmann and his subordinants, Himmler and his staff, Heydrich, etc.

Before his capture bu the Israelis, Eichmann told his entire story to a reporter who found his in Argentina. He admitted to planning a methodical extermination of the Jews and administrating it's execution.

http://vho.org/Links.html
Look through that. Read everything. There is no way you can still have a credible argument supporting the Holocaust if you read through some stuff there.
Oh, I noticed you stooped to calling me a Neo-Nazi. Typical Jewish tactic. Espically when they have no argument.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/28/02 02:16 PM, FlattusMaximus wrote: http://vho.org/Links.html
Look through that. Read everything. There is no way you can still have a credible argument supporting the Holocaust if you read through some stuff there.
Oh, I noticed you stooped to calling me a Neo-Nazi. Typical Jewish tactic. Espically when they have no argument.

I no more called you a Neo-Nazi for being influenced by the revisionist, often Neo-Nazi run sources, than you called my a Jew for being influenced by the "Jewsmedia," as you put it. I don't think you are truly some sort of Neo-Nazi, but I think that you may have been misguided by some of the stuff they put out.

[Pecos]

Oh my.. this is quite amusing.. I mean, I might have disagreed with Slizor on issues in the past.. but FlattusMaximus just takes it to a whole new level of ignorance and cluelessness. You shouldn't bother arguing with him.. it's just a waste of your time and energy.

You keep saying "Why did they have gas chambers if they didnt kill people in them?" The gas chambers were used to kill lice and help prevent the spread of typhus. It would take a very long time to kill someone with Zyklon B, and there were FAR more effective gasses the Germans would have used if they planned to kill people. Also, The gas chambers were re-constructed by the Auchwitz historical scociety, Who admitted to "losing" the air-tight doors. Not only that, but our good friend Joe Stallin also did some work on Auchwitz. Oh, And In case you didnt know, Auchwitz now admits that 1.5 million jews died in WW2, instead of the impossibly outlandish number of 8 million (The ADL claims 8 million were killed)

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/50kreward.html
The institute for historical review is offering 50,000 dollars to anyone who can pprove, without a doubt, that the Holocaust happened. If you are so sure of yourself, Why dont you take them up on their offer?

[Pecos]

At 7/4/02 11:36 AM, FlattusMaximus wrote: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/50kreward.html
The institute for historical review is offering 50,000 dollars to anyone who can pprove, without a doubt, that the Holocaust happened. If you are so sure of yourself, Why dont you take them up on their offer?

I would, but my grandfather and the serial number tattooed on his hand was buried thousands of miles away and about 15 years ago.

[Necromancer31362]

jeez. im pretty sick of biased morons.....
present company excluded.

here is what i say.

my 2 cents.
dont PMS on me.

I see no reason that this crap has to go on.
We can all look to a familiar example, closer to (my) home. Native americans. They were screwed out of their land by the settlers. As it is, they have a visible hatred of 'true white power' (god i hate that term). But, you don't see them killing us. thats because we gave them so much frigging stuff that its profitable for them to sit and rot in their reservations.

NOW, lets go to good old palestine.
as seen, most jewish people in palestine are immigrants from europe. that means, THEY LEFT @ one point or another. thats no problem. they have a right to leave. but for 9 generations, after selling every right to the land you had, yeah you cant claim it yours. THEN, balfour.
good old balfour.
Let me put this straight. its appropriate to quote ghandi.

"What do you think about Western Civilization?"
'Its a good idea.'

now take a few breaths...
good.
Balfour basically said 'let the jews have their own land'.
well, the thing is, that land was already taken. Roughly a few hundred years, and there is a mass wave pre WWII into a region of peace, palestinians (the former philistines) and jews who just never really left. Well, it was peaceful, but about as peaceful as making c4. after a while, immigration got to the point that the palestinians were threatened. (oh no). so, people got sick of it. an armed conflict was started, after talks (primitive 'mind moving your foot, its in my food') broke down. so, as israel became a nice little nation. and so arab armies attacked. why did they attack? same as russia and serbia in WWI. they were ethnically close and they were covering their own asses. noone had a problem with that. because (the allies won!!!!!). so, they attacked. israel survived.
yay.
well, skip to nasser era.
nation of israel is vewy strong. yay. nasser.strong ish. yay.
how fun.
stupid suez.
nasser looks like loser. no. israel looks like winner. yay.

SO, NOW. Israel. surrounded by neighbors who are rather pissed off @ it. Palestinians. rather pissed @ israel, and seeing that the US is israels *****, yeah.
so, if the us wasnt there, and if israel were cut off from help, and by that i mean the US, well, they would be cut into ribbons. why? i think hosni mubarak is a very patient man. but he wants to see his 19th cousins in 1 piece.

now tell me this.
when ted turner gets on his own networks, AND OTHERS, and starts screaming
'the israeli's have friggin tanks'
and then raves
'the palestinian's are throwing friggin rocks and blowing themselves up'
you really have to think of the situation.

if we take our lives day by day, and quit thinking of history, our lives would be so much happier.

flames welcome,
but i do resist to become a flamer, aka those who flame.

thx foryour time.

[Necromancer31362]

oh yeah btw lets take a small survey

religion
age
sex
nationality
race
experience
anything else u want to add.

me.

catholic
15 (dont laugh yet)
male
USA citizen
Ethnic Indian descent
lets see.....
gone into 6 peacecamps for kids and teens of understood race. usually a host, once a testing participant.
been to the area 4 times.
been searched by israeli's 3 times. once to the point of my total embarassment.
tried to be recruited as a killer once, and that was a simple 'im an american'.

and i read avidly every day. and in my town, everyone thinks im palestinian. so the jews in my town naturally hate me.

[Susanowoo]

no comment

[Necromancer31362]

thats a very nice picture. ill be stealing it now

[FreedomSlave]

religion
Atheist/Taoist ( I dont belive in a god, only nature)

age
19

sex
Male

nationality
British

race
Scottish, caucasian male

experience
Been through my own personal hell and back, suffered depression. Now a stronger person, life got you down? deal with it.

anything else u want to add.
Dislike america for the way they brainwash their public, admit that there are far worse places in the world but they dont attempt to encroach upon everything I do.

There more to me than that but hey :)

[Pecos]

At 7/9/02 12:36 AM, Necromancer31362 wrote: oh yeah btw lets take a small survey

religion

Jewish, but non-practicing

age

24

sex

Not as often as I'd like :) .....male

nationality

American citizen, born in Russia, half Ukrainian, quarter Polish, quarter Belorussian.

race

whitey

experience

persecuted for being a jew in Russia, and a bunch of other shit that none of you care about. :)

anything else u want to add.

I don't look like a "typical jew" and I don't hate all arabs. But I can't say I got much love for those who choose to attack innocent women and children for politically-motivated reasons.

[Slizor]

religion

Unrepentant atheist(Dirty Agnostics)

age

16 (Woo!)

sex

Male

nationality

British/Irish

race

Honkey

experience

Two years of Politics. I've been all over the scale, from Socialist, to Anarchist, to Communist.

anything else u want to add.

I mostly quote myself.

[Commander-K25]

At 7/9/02 05:36 AM, susanowoo wrote: no comment

"Freedom" at what cost?

At 7/11/02 02:38 AM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 7/9/02 05:36 AM, susanowoo wrote: no comment

"Freedom" at what cost?

What you dont see in that picture is the whole regiment of Isreal's "army" that have to be deployed to take out that 1 palestinian with a pea shooter.Isreali forces are more cowardly then American troops. And American troops are pretty damn gutless.

[Necromancer31362]

im going to say brain damaged.....

partly because they are SO fratranized, that they would trade 5 lives for 1. case in point the seal that fell outta the chinook. hey lost 5 or 6 to gain one. thats insane. there comes a point where a person has to realize that they arent worth another...