Hooray for Socialism! Or?

[el-muerte-roya]

Does anyone know the difference between communism and socialism? I do, cuz my country is run by social democrats... so it's like democratic socialists. My point is, don't get afraid and walk away as soon ya hear the word socialist. There are many good things about it, exampled by Sweden for example.

What's your oppinion about socialism? Is it just about murder and terror or is it like it was meant to be from the beginning, leaving no one behind and taking care of everybody?

Have your say, plz

[Ellie]

At 5/16/05 05:29 AM, el_muerte_roya wrote: What's your oppinion about socialism? Is it just about murder and terror or is it like it was meant to be from the beginning, leaving no one behind and taking care of everybody?

The latter.

[Pluto-from-Below]

Socialism? murder?, i guess i miss a connection, socialism is great. Real Communism too, on paper, but in real life, it just doesn't work, just like anarchy, people need rules and guidelines

[PT-Psyber]

At 5/16/05 07:27 AM, Pluto_from_Below wrote: Socialism? murder?, i guess i miss a connection, socialism is great. Real Communism too, on paper, but in real life, it just doesn't work, just like anarchy, people need rules and guidelines

well... communism is just about an extreme in rules, just below fascism... there really is no possible comparison to anarchy. as for socialism, portugal is now run by socialists and i'm damn proud of it! \o/ 52% of voters, baby! *ahem* sorry 'bout that. but i'm really a communist at heart. the only possible fears of communism i can see are mis-information and the high-classes fearing progressive taxing, but hey... that's just me.

[Pluto-from-Below]

At 5/16/05 07:45 AM, PT_Psyber wrote:

At 5/16/05 07:27 AM, Pluto_from_Below wrote: Socialism? murder?, i guess i miss a connection, socialism is great. Real Communism too, on paper, but in real life, it just doesn't work, just like anarchy, people need rules and guidelines

well... communism is just about an extreme in rules, just below fascism... there really is no possible comparison to anarchy.

I'm talking about communism the way Marx put it on paper, not the way Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and so on did it, those were (and are) just facist states.
:as for socialism, portugal is now run by socialists and i'm damn proud of it! \o/ 52% of voters, baby! *ahem* sorry 'bout that. but i'm really a communist at heart. the only possible fears of communism i can see are mis-information and the high-classes fearing progressive taxing, but hey... that's just me.

I wished we had some socialism in Holland again -.-

[Power-Head]

Socialism rules if you're a poor guy cause you gets the help from the rich dudes. Then again it's not fair for the rich people cause it's not their fault the poor people suffer.

Talking about what's best on paper i think it's a people chosen dictator. One guy who pleases everyone. Kind a like the american president... Just the should be good at their job ;)

[iWalker]

At 5/16/05 08:02 AM, Power_Head wrote: Socialism rules if you're a poor guy cause you gets the help from the rich dudes. Then again it's not fair for the rich people cause it's not their fault the poor people suffer.

then who's fault is it? it is the fault of the poor i'm sure. they should work harder and more for less money so you can earn more.

Talking about what's best on paper i think it's a people chosen dictator. One guy who pleases everyone. Kind a like the american president... Just the should be good at their job ;)

if you like dictators so much, why don't you go and live in africa. plenty of dictators there. and look what a great place it is to live in. those dictators make sure everybody is happy or taken care of. YAY

[altanese-mistress]

At 5/16/05 08:02 AM, Power_Head wrote: it's not their fault the poor people suffer.

The rich exploit the poor
Exploitation = Suffering
Therefore
The rich + capitalism = poor people suffer

[rock-u]

yeah ...I want to say that socialism need a long time to improve as well as capitalism..

and socialism is not only on the paper .... many country have proved it..

At 5/16/05 05:29 AM, el_muerte_roya wrote: Does anyone know the difference between communism and socialism?

Communism is just another fancy name for Socialism.

[Pluto-from-Below]

At 5/16/05 10:43 AM, Graffititi37 wrote:

At 5/16/05 05:29 AM, el_muerte_roya wrote: Does anyone know the difference between communism and socialism?

Communism is just another fancy name for Socialism.

No it isn't, in a socialistic state there is still privat property for example. In a communistic state, everything is from everybody

[el-muerte-roya]

Glad so many dropped in to have their say... it's truly interesting reading

I agree that communism looks good on paper, but don't work out in reality. Communism, as many other beliefs, wanna create their own Utopia. Many have tried, all have failed.

But is the point really in creating the perfect society? Is it impossible? Should we just lay down and die when we realize that our world never can be perfect. I say no, cuz the goal itself is not the point, it's the road getting there. The struggle for something better, and there are many ways to go the good road.

So as long people show kindness and compassion to their fellow man, I believe our world won't fall into complete darkness.

What Im trying to say is. No thought is wrong.

What this had to do with being pro socialist or not I can't tell. Just don't judge communism and socialism for it's rulers, judge it for how it was originally created.

[mhtbhm]

At 5/16/05 10:43 AM, Graffititi37 wrote: Communism is just another fancy name for Socialism.

You have my vote for dumbest comment of the week.

[BAWLS]

Communism is an extreme version of Socialism.

[altanese-mistress]

At 5/16/05 10:43 AM, Graffititi37 wrote: Communism is just another fancy name for Socialism.

If I had a dollar for each time I've heard that... I'd be a capitalist myself.

In a society evolving from capitalism to communism, they must first become socialist, wherein the production and distribution of goods is determined by equality rather then a free and competitive market. Communism is taking the same principles and going a step further as well and making big business; factories, office buildings, conglomerants, etc; a part of the government.

[Tyrant-Doomhammer]

God damnit, do you people not talk about anything else? Go find another doctrine to masturbate to already.

[Tyrant-Doomhammer]

At 5/16/05 09:47 AM, altanese_mistress wrote:

At 5/16/05 08:02 AM, Power_Head wrote: it's not their fault the poor people suffer.

The rich exploit the poor
Exploitation = Suffering
Therefore
The rich + capitalism = poor people suffer

Thanks for simplifying it down to a fucking math equation you dumb Red. You haven't proved ANYTHING.

And another thing, none of you seem to know what "Facism" (don't you mean Fascism?) is about. Fascism is a Corporate Police State. The combination of state and corporate power with strong military mostly supported by nationalized corporations as opposed to taxation. Don't make stupid comparissons if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[altanese-mistress]

At 5/16/05 08:06 PM, Tyrant_Doomhammer wrote: God damnit, do you people not talk about anything else? Go find another doctrine to masturbate to already.

Gee, thanks for the useful input. :p
What are you talking about?

[Tyrant-Doomhammer]

At 5/16/05 08:11 PM, altanese_mistress wrote:

At 5/16/05 08:06 PM, Tyrant_Doomhammer wrote: God damnit, do you people not talk about anything else? Go find another doctrine to masturbate to already.

Gee, thanks for the useful input. :p
What are you talking about?

Maybe you haven't noticed the (approximately) 293742 threads praising Marxism/Communism/Socialism with the same retarded rhetoric about the "ideal of equality." Also it seems that in every thread it seems manditory to have at least 6 people making stupid cowardly comments like "well communism WOULD work but..." or "communism is a good idea but it wouldn't work." Then there always tend to be a few pro-Soviet assholes that speak barely any english going on about how great communism is. I wonder how fast they'd be banned if they were advocating Fascism or National Socialism? I'm not even neccesarilly opposed to discussing socialism, but the way it is carried out here is retarded and unintelligable, particularilly with people making loaded statements like..

RICH PPL = EXPLOITASHEN OF TEH POOR

CAPITALISM = RICH PPL BAD THEY SUCK

COMMUNISM = PPL GET EQUALITY OF RIGHTZ AND IT IZ FAIR BECUS THEY HAVE EQUALITY

So maybe people should at least stick to one thread instead of starting 50 others about "LOL COMMUNIZM RULEZ IT IZ ZO GOOD IT GIVES PEPLE EQUAL RIGHTS BUT IT WUDNT WORK". Uhh, okay. Prove your point or don't bother saying anything.

[fli]

At 5/16/05 08:02 AM, Power_Head wrote: Socialism rules if you're a poor guy cause you gets the help from the rich dudes. Then again it's not fair for the rich people cause it's not their fault the poor people suffer.

The rich do hurt the lower people in pure Capitalism, and even in our US Mixed Capitalism. Just look at the Industrial Revolution.

And that is why folks you have to be good consumers-- don't buy junk from people whom exploit other people.

[BAWLS]

At 5/16/05 08:11 PM, Tyrant_Doomhammer wrote: Fascism is a Corporate Police State.

Fascism is where the state is held above all else, i.e. no civil liberties. It doesn't have anything to do with economics.

[altanese-mistress]

At 5/16/05 08:11 PM, Tyrant_Doomhammer wrote: Thanks for simplifying it down to a fucking math equation you dumb Red. You haven't proved ANYTHING.

And another thing, none of you seem to know what "Facism" (don't you mean Fascism?) is about. Fascism is a Corporate Police State. The combination of state and corporate power with strong military mostly supported by nationalized corporations as opposed to taxation. Don't make stupid comparissons if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

To shorten it; "Communism is bad. Communism is facist" Well if its so bad, why not tell me why capitalism is so great?

And another thing, don't think that the communist-dictatorships of China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc are what communism stands for. Karl Marx would be ashamed of those nations, even moreso for calling themselves communists.

[War-Weary-Lord]

lets just go back to monarchy, where 1 man/woman called the shots and people obeyed, cause i dont think any of these large political groups help much even though they are supposed to represent people, all they represent is the power of thier wit and sneakiness to get money

[altanese-mistress]

At 5/16/05 09:00 PM, War_Weary_Lord wrote: lets just go back to monarchy, where 1 man/woman called the shots and people obeyed, cause i dont think any of these large political groups help much even though they are supposed to represent people, all they represent is the power of thier wit and sneakiness to get money

You mean just like the Royalists old Europe?

[Tyrant-Doomhammer]

At 5/16/05 08:39 PM, -BAWLS- wrote:

At 5/16/05 08:11 PM, Tyrant_Doomhammer wrote: Fascism is a Corporate Police State.

Fascism is where the state is held above all else, i.e. no civil liberties. It doesn't have anything to do with economics.

"Fascism should rightly be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power"
-Benito Mussolini

Okay so first of all -- FUCKING READ ABOUT IT. Look it up online, OR read Giovanni Gentile's "The Origins of the Doctrine of Fascism" for a greater understanding. It has a LOT to do with economics. Fascism is a DOCTRINE on its own. The term you are looking for it "totalitarian" which is a means of governing, not a doctrine. It can describe a lot of different things. The Corporate Police State is the closest thing to an Emperial state which is what Fascism is partly based on (as the "Fasces" as I mentioned in other threads is a symbol of the dictator and empire). Just read about it before saying "Duh noooo, no its nooott".. jesus christ.. And once again, what the fuck is "Facism" - The doctrine of the human face?

Second of all, I never said that today's "communist" countries are communist. What is great about capitalism? Capitalism is the moral basis for individualism, intellectualism and ADVANCEMENT. I've explained myself several times in other threads, so I'm not going to go into detail here.

[Non-existant12]

fasism doesn't have a clear defintion... just because one leader describe what he though it was doesn't mean thats it, also now a days it's just used to describe an authoritarian state. Jesus christ was also not neccisary....

[RandelFlag]

You guys are kiding right? Pluto.. altanese.. your not realy communists right?? Whats good about capitalism? Your kiding right? Raiseing the quality of life for its people and people across the world isnt good? I mean common, how many people make a boat from tires to escape America every year? Any government that uses force agianst its own people to stay in power and have no voteing for goverment offices have no place in the world today. Takeing economic advice from Karl Marx is like takeing baby sitting advice from a child molester. The man couldnt balance his own check book. He got willed money from two family members and blew that plus the money he made himself, and died in debt. So his plan for an economy is going to be sound advice?

[altanese-mistress]

At 5/17/05 02:46 AM, RandelFlag wrote: You guys are kiding right? Pluto.. altanese.. your not realy communists right?? Whats good about capitalism? Your kiding right? Raiseing the quality of life for its people and people across the world isnt good? I mean common, how many people make a boat from tires to escape America every year? Any government that uses force agianst its own people to stay in power and have no voteing for goverment offices have no place in the world today. Takeing economic advice from Karl Marx is like takeing baby sitting advice from a child molester. The man couldnt balance his own check book. He got willed money from two family members and blew that plus the money he made himself, and died in debt. So his plan for an economy is going to be sound advice?

When will people understand that no country has ever been communist. Not China, not North Korea, not Cuba, not the USSR... NO country. Capitalism only raises the quality of life for the rich, while lowering the quality of life for the poor. Ever hear about the "gap between rich and poor"? And you have not said one thing about capitalism that is good. Only that communism is terrible. And you personally attacked Karl Marx. Ya wanna know WHY he did so badly? Because every country he went too hated him for his radical beliefs of nobles and peasents being equal. America hasn't completly collapsed yet because; like it or not; they have socialist ideals. Free public schools, homless shelters, social security, disabled benifits, etc. True capitalism is like anarchy; if someone can take it, its theirs. People have to survive completly on their own.

[el-muerte-roya]

The best thing to do would to completely mix socialism with capitalism and create a doctrine out of that. Then we would have the equality and "leaving none behind" thinking with a free market. But it already exists are called "social democracy" It's working here in Europe, why not everywhere else?

And mostly write here with thoughts behind it but plz, keep the debate a little more serious ok?

All I had to say, I'll check back later

[Gunter45]

At 5/17/05 04:56 AM, el_muerte_roya wrote: The best thing to do would to completely mix socialism with capitalism and create a doctrine out of that.

That exists, it's how the world operates. There has never been a purely socialist or purely capitalist nation ever. All nations incorporate capitalism and socialism. As altanese mentioned, even the US has socialist programs an policies. The FDA and antitrust laws are further examples. Of course, there is a broad spectrum between socialism and capitalism. There is no doubt that the US leans much farther towards capitalism than socialism.

And altanese, with all due respect, there is a reason why there has never been a completely communist country. The idea would not work on such a large scale. Karl Marx had some good ideas, but he was definately an optimist. No country could ever sustain communism in its purest form for any length of time, especially not in the real world where no country is self-sustaining. In order to be able to survive in the world, a country needs an economy that will allow them to import things that they need. Socialism could never provide an economy that could compete on a world scale. There is simply no incentive for the workers to excel. Why bother doing more than your fellow comrade if there's nothing to gain?