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I believe he was talking more about creation of the human race as described in the bible rather than the creation of the universe by an intelligent force.

In any case, he was just describing why both sides are stubborn and unwilling to accept the possibility of a genetic cause, not trying to call religious people stupid.

At 5/9/05 04:16 PM, Elfer wrote: I believe he was talking more about creation of the human race as described in the bible rather than the creation of the universe by an intelligent force.

Oh, he was attacking Bible-believing Christians. Well that's much better. =P

In any case, he was just describing why both sides are stubborn and unwilling to accept the possibility of a genetic cause, not trying to call religious people stupid.

I know, but it's better to stick with the subject. Creationists already suffer enough ridicule in pro-Evolution threads. We don't like to be insulted in every topic. ~_^

Fair enough. It just seemed like you were dismissing his entire post as poppycokery based on a single sentence.

I thought it was actually fairly interesting, maybe it would be cool if he could give us the name of the paper or something.

How Is a Person Born Gay? Well, here is my Theory: A Gay Semen gets launched into a Lesbian Egg, thus, creating a homosexual Fetus. Nine Months later, Tah-dah, you have a bouncing baby boy in a leapord-skin hat!

Heh... anyways, I'm conservative so I do not believe in that you are born gay or that it is a disease, I believe that it is a choice.(And/or how you are raised)

At 5/9/05 04:25 PM, Elfer wrote: Fair enough. It just seemed like you were dismissing his entire post as poppycokery based on a single sentence.

Nah, I wasn't dismissing it. I just wanted to clear that up.

I thought it was actually fairly interesting, maybe it would be cool if he could give us the name of the paper or something.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but I still think that to believe this information is somehow hidden from us... is a bit paranoid. =/

At 4/19/05 07:50 PM, Sweat wrote: i guess you can say that pedophiles are born Pedophiles.

Well pedophelia isn't really a thing you're born with I think. I was watching Vh1 (just so you know that i might not have any idea what im talking about) and the michael jackson thing came on. It says that he was sexually abused (in a way) as a child. This (the speculated) may be why he is now a (alleged) child molestor. Im not saying that homosexuality stems from bad things in life, but I think that homosexuality happens BECAUSE of things that happen in the lifetime of someone, however, I am not gay so I wouldnt know, but I dont think its a choice, I have not met a single gay person who has said that, and I've met alot because my dad's ex girlfriend took mme to gay pride parades and has alot of gay friends, NO she is not gay, BUt she still went to them because, like me now, she strongly believes in gay rights

At 4/19/05 08:07 PM, Maus wrote: I think you chose to be straight. Two can play at that game.

I didnt chose to be straight, I was like "HEY! LOOK AT HER.... hmmm.... did my pants shrink??"

At 5/9/05 05:00 PM, VerseChorusVerse wrote: Yeah, I get what you're saying, but I still think that to believe this information is somehow hidden from us... is a bit paranoid. =/

He wasn't really saying it was hidden, he just says that people don't like to talk about it because then both sides would have to back down off of their mountains of stupid just a tad.

I don't believe you are born gay. If anything, it happens as a result to home life. I don't buy the whole no choice thing, since I am a die hard conservative. I don't think homosexuality is a bad thing, but acting on it is.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/05/09/pheromones.study.reut/index.html

Something interesting on the subject.

There have also been things, can't pull up a source right now, suggesting that perhaps there are thigns that affect it that occur duriing fetal development. Changes in how development takes place caused by the mover having had a male child in the past.

It seems to me overall that sexuality is a complicated thing, with many factors affecting it. I look at it as not a starkly contrasted thing, but instead another prefrence, like how people have prefrences towards pigmentation, or certain dimensions, or sexual situations, positions.

At 5/10/05 01:04 AM, Sireus_Payne wrote: I don't believe you are born gay. If anything, it happens as a result to home life. I don't buy the whole no choice thing, since I am a die hard conservative. I don't think homosexuality is a bad thing, but acting on it is.

I was brought up in a devoutly Christian, conservative household. My parents are homophobes. It isn't always a nurture thing.

At 5/10/05 02:24 PM, Maus wrote:

At 5/10/05 01:04 AM, Sireus_Payne wrote: I don't believe you are born gay. If anything, it happens as a result to home life. I don't buy the whole no choice thing, since I am a die hard conservative. I don't think homosexuality is a bad thing, but acting on it is.

I was brought up in a devoutly Christian, conservative household. My parents are homophobes. It isn't always a nurture thing.

Aye... and I was raised Mexican.
(Mexicans know what I mean when I say it). Very conservative, devoutly Roman Catholic, very homophobic. It's a culture where men need to show they're men with machoism. It's good at times, and it's bad other times. Depending.

Mexican culture is very anti-gay. At least with the United States there's acceptence by many people. Mexico is in the closet--

At 5/10/05 02:53 PM, fli wrote:

At 5/10/05 02:24 PM, Maus wrote:

Aye... and I was raised Mexican.
(Mexicans know what I mean when I say it). Very conservative, devoutly Roman Catholic, very homophobic. It's a culture where men need to show they're men with machoism.

I've experienced that first hand, for what it's worth. I used to know a latino (I say latino, because I don't know if he was mexican...or something else) who was CRAZY catholic.

And, in a way, I almost found it humerous. The way this guy (Rick was his name, I do believe) carried himself and dressed...he wasn't quite the inner-city-latino-stereotype...but almost. He said 'essay' and 'gringo', and the like.
But if anyone happened to say something negative about Christ, or God, or Catholicism...he'd lose his mind, and vigorously threaten physical violence. He was the same way about homosexuality...he kind of went crazy with anger everytime someone brought it up.

*Shrugs*
Don't know what my point was. I wasn't trying to stereotype latinos, or anything...I was just speaking some things I've learned.

I gather you didn't tell him you were bi? :-P

I do so hate to jump in, but as a relevant point of interest, if you get the Globe and Mail, check the front page, right hand side.

I'll summarize it here, just let me go grab it.

Researchers in Sweden who studied the effects of chemicals derived from testosterone and estrogen said that their findings suggest that the functioning of the brain can be linked to sexual orientation.
The study, which will be published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, looked at 36 subjects, an even mix of straight men, gay men and straight women.
By scanning their heads as they were subjected to routine odours, the researchers found that all of them reacted in the pars of their brains designed to handle smells. But when gay men and straight women were exposed to the smell of testosterone, the part of their brains that deals with sexual response was activated.
The brains of straight men responded to testosterone as a smell only but reacted sexually to estrogen.
"The experimental conditions were standardized and identical in all subjects," writes Ivanka Savic, lead author and associate professor at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm..."we detected an undistorted physiological response."
... ... ...
Mr. Kelly, whose group campaigns on behalf of gays and lesbians in the school system, said it comes down to respect for the differences in society, no matter what their cause.

Just something interesting, and this seemed the most appropriate place.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

What, were we having a tupperware party that day or something?

I've heard of studies done on hearing and homosexuality, but not the smell one. Kind of makes sense, though.

At 5/10/05 07:14 PM, SkyCube wrote: I gather you didn't tell him you were bi? :-P

haha, no, I didn't. He was (and this is just hilariously perfect) a drug dealer. He was my circles' acid-man for several months. And, no matter what...you don't want to piss off the acid-man.
So no...he didn't know I was bi...and he didn't know I was agnostic. As far as he knew. I was a god-fearing straight man.

I also find it funny that ol' Rick was a devout catholic...stood against homosexuality and anti-theism...while, at the same time, passing out acid like it was bottled water.

I love how I got slapped with the epithet "liberal" the millisecond I said something that those on the right would consider inflammatory. For future reference, I'm a centrist.

I threw in Creationism only based on my personal experience with it, namely that the hardcore creationists believe the earth is only around 6000-7000 years old, which is catagorically ridiculous. I have no argument with the more rational belief that the universe was created and shaped by divine intelligence, it is a belief I share but not to the extent of God sewing divine nametags on our butts.

Hope that clears things up. I never would have thought such a passing statement would slow down this thread so much. And like I said, it's not "hidden" it's just not well publicized.

Don't worry, capn. Whole pages get chewed up in this forum over semantics. That was relatively painless. ;P

the basis for feelings as love and affection are laid at a very young age, your genetic make up determines how the "input" from your environment is handled, so I think, as in a lot of things, its a little bit from both sides, genetic make up determines how big the basic chance is you will grow up to be gay, but role models, the kind love you get etc etc determine the rest.

People like fli might think they where born gay, but you cant really say that for sure since there is no chance you can remember all the feelings you had in your first couple of years in your life.

I think it's a developmental thing and a natural thing. Kind of like girls and their cycles. THeir unique cycle is determined during puberty, and I think sexuality develops there as well, but I think all things are partly natural and partly evironmental, so it's hard to say for sure.

i say a person can defintily be born gay. i base that from fact that theres a kid at my school wich is more frilly than most of the girls....he's gayer than liberaci

At 5/10/05 09:29 PM, The_Deadly_Spoon wrote: People like fli might think they where born gay, but you cant really say that for sure since there is no chance you can remember all the feelings you had in your first couple of years in your life.

I knew I was different when I was a kid. Why? I can't tell you, I just knew that liking He-Man's body over She-Ra's body was strange. Although this wasn't sexual. I just liked how a masculine GI Joe guy looked over a feminine GI Joe girl.

The sexual tension didn't start till was 12/13.

And not everyone forgets their childhood. My first memory is about my uncle I was about 4 or 5. I know because I remember watching The Littles, a really old cartoon, when I first saw my uncle. I was scared of him, but eventually I grew to love him because he would spin me around all the time. The Littles, the cartoon series, was around 1984 or 1985 if I remember...

And I also remember going to my uncle's grave, and innocently trying to dig up the ground because I wanted him to spin me around. This was around 1985, when I was about 5.

Homosexuality is not a choice. A lesbian is born with more testorerone, and more male genes, guys are born with more feminine genes, and Homosexuality is perfectly natural.

At 5/16/05 05:48 PM, Kev-o wrote: Homosexuality is not a choice. A lesbian is born with more testorerone, and more male genes, guys are born with more feminine genes, and Homosexuality is perfectly natural.

Sexuality is affected by MANY things; it is foolish to say that you have one, universal reason why homosexuals are homosexuals. It IS a choice in some cases.

Genetics influence your how you act and who you like.

At 5/16/05 05:58 PM, godsmack666 wrote: Genetics influence your how you act and who you like.

Says who? Genes define physical characteristics of an organism.

(Hmm, I apologize if I didn't read the WHOLE thread, but I skimmed through most of it)

I'm aware this is a very hot issue... the question is homosexuality choice or is it genetic? I'm gay myself, and to tell you the truth? I'm pretty clueless actually... but if I had to choose one? it would be genetic.

"Choice" is very loosely based. ANYONE in this thread can do homosexual activities... they can "choose" to suck a cock while I can "choose" to lick a vagina... will I like it? No. I kinda always compared this to icecream. Some people like chocolate icecream while others like vanilla icecream... did YOU control whether or not you like a certain flavor? Not really... it was kinda in your genes.

The "born with it" deal is also loosely based. I mean, I believe everyone receives a certain amout of masculine and feminine hormones (such as men with boobs, women with slight facial hair, etc.). PERHAPS that affects whether you have an attraction to guys or girls. In my case? I think I got a few too many feminine hormones since my voice is a tad higher than most, once I hit puberty I sorta got 'man boobs' (but they went away), and I didn't get facial hair until age 17. So, genetics? Possibly.

Now, you're probably wondering how the f*** I'm gay... huh'? Well... I'll give you a quick rundown on my "sexual" life so you can analyze me if you'd like. Enjoy! ^.^

From kindergarten to what I am today... I never was the most social or popular kid in school... why? Because I got easily irritated by kids and most didn't like me for some reason. I had a few close guy friends whom I'd play with during recess, at home, play videogames, run around aimlessly, etc. etc. But either than that? I was pretty solitary.

My attitude towards girls was negative. They were confusing, they were annoying, they didn't like the same stuff that I did, and they were just stupid (at the younger before teenager age). Later to even this day? I have a good number of girl friends... since they can provide better emotional support, friendship, and I can talk about boys and sex with them compared to my straight guy friends. But either than that? I still don't want to be anything more than a friend with them... never did.

One of my father's main excuses on why I'm gay is because of my mother. I admit, at times she could be nice and a good parent... but most of the time she was just terrible. She honestly had mental problems and always yelled and threaten to do bad things to me (physically... like hitting... or disowning me or leaving my father). Since I was under the oppression of her... apparently according to my father I obtained a negative view on women... but it still doesn't make sense since I have a lot of female friends.

Now, for the sexual-ness? When puberty was starting to come along... I DID look at straight porno... why? Because I felt like I had to. I admit I got off to it... but it had it had to have a guy in it. (ie no lesbian or single women porn) Overtime, I screwed around with various things on the internet, talked with various people in chatrooms, online RPGs, Furcadia, etc. I began to find out about homosexuality and what it really was. I think the submissive nature of gay sex appealed to me... since sometimes when I got off to straight porn, I fantasized being the woman! Well, I began to look at gay porn (and gay furry porn... I also discovered the furry fandom at this point, but it doesn't really affect it that much) and well... I liked it. So, I slowly began to realize I was gay.

Well, I suppose that's how I came to be gay. I really can't I "chose" to be homosexual... because when I first discovered porn on the internet... I really didn't get off to women nor did I find them sexually attractive. I really can't say it's possible to "convert" me to heterosexuality because I just don't like it... and I don't think I can aquire the "taste" for it. But c'mon! I don't regret being gay one bit! Logically, I think being gay is a blessing. Aside from the petty discrimination part... there are just so many benefits to being gay (in my opinion).

Well, I hope that helps in any decision making... I know I missed out a whole lot... but I still hope it helps.

Does it have to be genetic OR choice ?

Men, culture, education, psychological profile is what it is all about.

Men and women are roles given to you when you are born, according to one biological gender. Heterosexuality is the cultural legacy that comes with it. What one lived, saw, experienced will lead him eventually to homo or bisexuality.

It's like loving ice-cream over pudding. It's all about being sensitive, and having one's own tastes.

Besides, what the fuck is all the hype about the gay question ? I'm straight myself and don't give a damn about it. Let other people give their life, and that's all.

At 5/16/05 06:02 PM, VerseChorusVerse wrote:

At 5/16/05 05:58 PM, godsmack666 wrote: Genetics influence your how you act and who you like.

Says who? Genes define physical characteristics of an organism.

You got to remember,
there are things called genotype and phenotype.

Not all genes express physical attributes. Like inherited disease such as Alzheimers.
That's a genotype (trait expressed in genes) that doesn't happen till a person becomes older.