God - Part 2

[Slizor]

So, who believes in God? And, why do you believe in God?

[Commander-K25]

At 3/20/02 02:12 PM, Slizor wrote: So, who believes in God? And, why do you believe in God?

Me, because he exists. The existence God is the only logical possibility.

[FAT-MAN2k1]

At 3/20/02 02:12 PM, Slizor wrote: So, who believes in God? And, why do you believe in God?

i do, because somebody had to have made us

[Slizor]

Me, because he exists. The existence God is the only logical possibility.

How so?

FAT: Why does someone have had to create us?

[Commander-K25]

At 3/21/02 11:34 AM, Slizor wrote:

Me, because he exists. The existence God is the only logical possibility.

How so?

FAT: Why does someone have had to create us?

We didn't just appear one day, we evolved. This may seem contrary to religion but I believe in both God and science, and believe that that they are not mutually exclusive. We evolved, ultimately from the first ammino acids and proteins that formed in the primordial seas of Earth billions of years ago. These seas were formed by water vapor that was spewed gradually out of even more ancient volcanos. The Earth itself was formed from asteroids, rocks, dust and general space debris that lumped together over very long periods of time, flying about the sun. It all traces back to the Big Bang, that first super-particle that exploded into everything that makes up the universe today. The question is, where did that first particle come from. A lot of evidence today points toward it being a random vacuum fluctuation in the surface of space-time. These fluctuations happen all the time around us, empty space is not so empty as it may seem.

This elementary particle popped into existence but it's symmetry broke and it rapidly expanded. The predictions made by this model are consistent with current astronomical and particle physics evidence. Now, according to quantum theory, which has been proven many times by experimental evidence, there is a higher plane of super-spacetime, where the quantum decisions take place. No matter what interpretation you favor or believe in, Copenhagen, MWI or TI, they all must take place on this higher plane of reality. In MWI, my preference, this is where the universes split into parallel realities representing every possible quantum possibility, uncountable numbers of unverses growing exponentially every infinite fraction if the most infinitessimally small fractions of seconds. The extra realities split of at right angles in different dimensions. Just like length is at a right angle to width and depth at a right angle to them and then time at another right angle to those three, the fifth, sixth, seventh, etc. dimensions branch at right angles that can only be properly represented mathematically, you could never in your wildest dreams draw this sort of thing on paper correctly.

Anyway, this upper plane is the obvious place for a God, a "supreme consciousness" a sort of "divine scientist" that is omnipotent because he is working on the next level, above our limited "reality." Such a place exists, I've just described it and it is proven by mathematics, experimental evidence and the greatest intellectual minds ever, Stephen Hawking, Frank Tipler, Roger Penrose, Paul Dirac, etc.

You may ask, why should there be any reason for such a God to exist but the answer is, Why not? The laws of physics break down at places like singularities where space-time is essentially punctured. In these regions no physical laws apply. In the super-spacetime plane, one of those such zones, anything and everything is possible. Reality, as we know it doesn't exist. Anything can exist and does, and God is all the overlaying possibilities.

[NightHawk092401]

At 3/20/02 05:03 PM, FAT_MAN2k1 wrote:

At 3/20/02 02:12 PM, Slizor wrote: So, who believes in God? And, why do you believe in God?

i do, because somebody had to have made us

If someone had to make us...then who made the maker?

[Slizor]

You may ask, why should there be any reason for such a God to exist but the answer is, Why not?

The question should never be "Why not?", but instead "Why?". Because something is possible it does not make it so. There is a possiblity that tomorrow, when I wake up, I will be a giraffe. We'll wait and see if it happens.

[Commander-K25]

At 3/22/02 11:54 AM, Slizor wrote:

You may ask, why should there be any reason for such a God to exist but the answer is, Why not?

The question should never be "Why not?", but instead "Why?". Because something is possible it does not make it so. There is a possiblity that tomorrow, when I wake up, I will be a giraffe. We'll wait and see if it happens.

Did you even read my whole post or just that line?

[Slizor]

Did you even read my whole post or just that line?

I managed to sum your post up into one line. Actually two words "Why not?"

[Commander-K25]

At 3/22/02 07:16 PM, Slizor wrote:

Did you even read my whole post or just that line?

I managed to sum your post up into one line. Actually two words "Why not?"

You are grossly oversimplifying. I am talking about super-spacetime, where the laws of physics do not apply just like a singularity point in a black hole. This plane of uber-reality would literally have anything and everything in it. Many people object to the notion of God because there is no way to describe him in terms of science, namely physics. He cannot be described because he exists on the super-spacial, super-temporal plane where the quantum decisions take place. Why not, means that since every possibility is played out in this over-reality into which all other realitites and universes fit, God must exist because he is a potential quantum possibility.

[Shotel]

At 3/22/02 10:06 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 3/22/02 07:16 PM, Slizor wrote:

Did you even read my whole post or just that line?

I managed to sum your post up into one line. Actually two words "Why not?"

You are grossly oversimplifying. I am talking about super-spacetime, where the laws of physics do not apply just like a singularity point in a black hole. This plane of uber-reality would literally have anything and everything in it. Many people object to the notion of God because there is no way to describe him in terms of science, namely physics. He cannot be described because he exists on the super-spacial, super-temporal plane where the quantum decisions take place. Why not, means that since every possibility is played out in this over-reality into which all other realitites and universes fit, God must exist because he is a potential quantum possibility.

A minor point, The laws of phisics do hold at the singularity of a black hole, if you want the supporting evidence of this ask in a couple of weeks when i don't have so much chemistry coursework to do.

However I do agree with much of the rest of your argument, those people who object to the notion of god because there is no way to describe Him scientifically should realise that logically, indeed by the very definition of science, there is no way to prove that something does not exist (for a debate on the nature of logic and the theory of knowledge again wait a few weeks)

While I do not deny the possibility of the existence of God I do not belive in any particular religion as most religions have very little basis in anything other than falsehood and seem to always miss their intended message, They all preach peace but generally cause war.

[Slizor]

You are grossly oversimplifying. I am talking about super-spacetime, where the laws of physics do not apply just like a singularity point in a black hole. This plane of uber-reality would literally have anything and everything in it. Many people object to the notion of God because there is no way to describe him in terms of science, namely physics. He cannot be described because he exists on the super-spacial, super-temporal plane where the quantum decisions take place. Why not, means that since every possibility is played out in this over-reality into which all other realitites and universes fit, God must exist because he is a potential quantum possibility.

If I follow your reasoning he would exist there, but only COULD exist in this universe.

[Commander-K25]

At 3/25/02 05:17 PM, Slizor wrote:

You are grossly oversimplifying. I am talking about super-spacetime, where the laws of physics do not apply just like a singularity point in a black hole. This plane of uber-reality would literally have anything and everything in it. Many people object to the notion of God because there is no way to describe him in terms of science, namely physics. He cannot be described because he exists on the super-spacial, super-temporal plane where the quantum decisions take place. Why not, means that since every possibility is played out in this over-reality into which all other realitites and universes fit, God must exist because he is a potential quantum possibility.

If I follow your reasoning he would exist there, but only COULD exist in this universe.

If he exists on a super-spacial, super-temporal plane, then he could control the quantum wave-fucntions that decide the course of reality. Quantum physics proves that nothing is really real until something observes it, something requires feedback, whether it is you looking at it or a computer detection device, (of course, you have to look at the device to read the results, the possibilities mount).

If he exists on this plane, then he could control the wave-functions and literally shape the course of reality, giving him omnipotent power.

[Slizor]

Whoa! So far you have proved he COULD exist within quantum physics. Amazing! I counter you with thi. He also could not.

[Commander-K25]

At 3/25/02 06:15 PM, Slizor wrote: Whoa! So far you have proved he COULD exist within quantum physics. Amazing! I counter you with thi. He also could not.

But he makes sense, scientifically:

An interesting viewpoint, (but not what I base my entire argument on):

The Physics of Immortality
by Frank J. Tipler

[Piro-O-Nero]

At 3/25/02 05:32 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 3/25/02 05:17 PM, Slizor wrote:

You are grossly oversimplifying. I am talking about super-spacetime, where the laws of physics do not apply just like a singularity point in a black hole. This plane of uber-reality would literally have anything and everything in it. Many people object to the notion of God because there is no way to describe him in terms of science, namely physics. He cannot be described because he exists on the super-spacial, super-temporal plane where the quantum decisions take place. Why not, means that since every possibility is played out in this over-reality into which all other realitites and universes fit, God must exist because he is a potential quantum possibility.

If I follow your reasoning he would exist there, but only COULD exist in this universe.

If he exists on a super-spacial, super-temporal plane, then he could control the quantum wave-fucntions that decide the course of reality. Quantum physics proves that nothing is really real until something observes it, something requires feedback, whether it is you looking at it or a computer detection device, (of course, you have to look at the device to read the results, the possibilities mount).

If he exists on this plane, then he could control the wave-functions and literally shape the course of reality, giving him omnipotent power.

Whatever buddy. So I guess you're trying to prove that the "christian" god exists? (And the reason I'm saying Christian, is because I'm addressing a post made by you, so it's inferred.) All I see you do is give evidence (if you could call it that) to the notion that "an entity could hypothetically exist in a realm of reality that we can't explore and that this entity could do stuff that we can't measure". To me, you're not saying much more than that.

This entity you are describing is just that, an entity. And I don't think you could ever say or prove anything more than that. (Nevermind trying to prove that "entity X" 2000 years ago fucked some Mary chick, who latter gave birth to some Nordic guy in the middle east.)

What you are doing is bringing up arguments in the realm of philospohy or metaphysicals. Hindu, Islamic and (I think Buddhist) metaphysicists have done exactly what Christians have done and come up with the same conclusion: that their faith is correct. Pretty odd eh? Everyone saying that their faith is true based on their incomplete understanding of actual cosmological theory? Yeah, I guess they're all right. Or they're all wrong. Which one is it? Hmmm... I guess there's no way to find out.

In any case, I'd think a person would be quite arrogant to believe strongly that they themselves know what Entity X really wants us to do...

(I'd be really surprised if Entity X really gives a fuck at what we did.)

And please don't bring in Stephen Hawkings into this. He hates you.

[PreacherJ]

*Sigh*

Damn I'm tired of discussing things in these "God" Topics.

Wait, no I'm not.

Ok. The possibility of "Entity X" as given by Commander has a lot of truth behind it, I believe, and I'm not an advocate for any omnipotent being. I'm not here to debate the existence of "Entity X" or prove/disprove anyone else's theories.

But what I am tired of, is people trying to prove the existence of the gods existing in religions today. If this omnipotent being truly does exist, and we're going to discuss it's existance at length, we need to refer to it as "Entity X" from now on. People try to credit the Christian God for that first particle, or Buddha, or Allah, etc., when in actuality, none of these choices even comes close, even IF there is an "Entity X."

So, if you're going to argue against the disbelief in "Entity X" by stating you do believe there's a "God," all I ask is that you take all of this theoretical information and apply it to your own belief structure. Don't argue that God exists until you can suitably prove "Entity X" exists, you know?

Word.

[bumcheekcity]

At 3/20/02 02:12 PM, Slizor wrote: So, who believes in God? And, why do you believe in God?

I dont, well I kinda do. I'm open to things. If there is a God, then hes fucked up with a lot and he definately isnt all-knowing, if all-powerful. If there isn't, science provides a perfectly good basis on how I got here, so I dont mind. If God exists I hope I'll go to heaven. If I dont I'll have a word with Satan and start a revolution.

If you worshipped Satan, would he be nice to you when/if you got sent to hell?

[Ted-Easton]

See bumcheekcity's signature quote for my feelings. ;)

[bumcheekcity]

At 4/22/03 06:23 PM, Ted_Easton wrote: See bumcheekcity's signature quote for my feelings. ;)

The universe was created by who, though. Although, when I find out who did it, I'm going to have stern words about why they decided to place my girlfriends house a whole hours walk away from mine.

On a not-very-serious-but-still-a-little-bit-more-serious-than-before note, would Satan be nice to you if you were a Satanist?

[FUNKbrs]

At 4/22/03 07:35 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: On a not-very-serious-but-still-a-little-bit-more-serious-than-before note, would Satan be nice to you if you were a Satanist?

ANSWER: NO

the reason? satan, supposedly, is the antithesis of good. An archetype of evil. He is incapable of telling the truth, or of loyalty. Whats more in the character of satan, to keep promises, or to tell lies?
if satan made a pact with you, he would break it, because once he had what he wanted from you, his inherently evil nature would drive him to betray you. If satan kept his promises, he wouldnt be satan.

[Commander-K25]

At 4/22/03 07:35 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: The universe was created by who, though. Although, when I find out who did it, I'm going to have stern words about why they decided to place my girlfriends house a whole hours walk away from mine.

It's not so much who created the universe as who and/or what the universe is. Wither the universe is a creation of God living upon a higher plane of super-spacetime or the God is the universe. We'll need to to find the correct interpretation for quantum theory, though, either MWI or Copenhagen. That's hard to do, of course, because they both predict the same results when it comes to experiments designed to test quantum theory's validity.

[Freakapotimus]

I think that if God and Satan exist as Christians believe, then neither one acts outside the other's knowlegde. If God's all-knowing and all-powerful, he would know exactly what Satan was doing, and vice-versa. It's the two sides of every coin dealie.

However, I don't view god that way. I don't think there's some guy that knows what's going on. I think it's more a presence... hard to explain.