Who Owns Israel\Palestine?

[chrcolbean]

Now I know that religions conflict, so I'm going to leave religion out of this. This is a tense topic and has been the cause of violence. Yet who does it really belong to?

ISRAEL'S CASE

-The "Pre-Isrealites" had the land given to them by the U.N.
-Israel has taken better care of the land then their former owners (planted forests, irrigated, etc.) and has set up a somewhat fair government.
-The Jews were prosecuted and murdered throughout history and were forced to roam all over the world until they were given a home where they were treated fairly.
-History states that the Jews were kicked out of Israel by the Romans who established Palestine.

PALESTINE'S CASE

-The Palestinians lived in the area when it was taken from them were already well settled there.
-Once the nation of Israel was established the Palestinians were not given equal rights to the Jews.
-The Palestinians belive that the prescence of the Israelis is smothering and they are waging a racist war.
-The Palestinians had been dwelling in that area for quite some time before it was taken.

My opinion? Well, the Arabs decided that they had to give something up to the Jews, so they gave the most lousy miserable peice of shit wasteland up so that they would loose nothing. But the Jews took care of the land and prospered. They never did anyhting to fight against the Arabs, but the Arabs started being agressive. They told the Palestinians to get out of the area because they were going to be killed, so the Palestinians left for refugee camps and everyone started to hate Israel. So eventually they declare war, and Israel goes in and kicks the Arabs' asses. They then declare peace and go back to their homeland, but it happened over and over again until the Israelites got all the land in the area. I really don't see how that classifies them as evil. How is it evil to get war declared on you, fight back, win, go home, and find Arabs throwing rocks at Jews from the other side of the West Wall? The Jews were never militiant and never strapped bombs to their stomachs to blow up Palestinian children. They were never a threat, and just wanted to be left alone.

Your opinions on this controversial matter?

[Commander-K25]

If they could co-exist peacefully, that would be the ideal solution since they both have some strong claims to the land but that will be very difficult. The PLO and the terrorist group Hamas are very militant. Back in the 60's and 70's when the Arabs said they'd had enough of Israel, they had a few wars, including the famous Six Days War. Egypt, Syria, etc. came in to blow them away but they kept taking more and more territory instead. Israel held its ground and now they've made peace with their neighboring countries but when they kicked out the Palestinians around that time they went from from country to country and kept getting kicked out of places like Jordan and Syria because, big suprise, nobody wants a group with a high concentration of thugs and terrorists among them.

So they go to Lebanon, a nice peaceful place where they actually have a nice, quiet balanced government where the Islamic and Christian factions co-exist in peace. The Palestinians come in and try to seize the government. Big civil war and Beirut, a city that used to be lined with beatiful boulevards and buildings, gets turned to a pile of rubble and is now synonymous with chaos. Forces are sent in to stabilize the situation and we shell them a few times, just about the last use of battleships in an actual battle. We do that a few times and eventually they move back to Israel where, suprise, suprise, plenty of bombings, suicide attacks and general mayhem ensue. And here we are today. Palestinians on the whole are not that bad, but they have enough thugs, fanatics and terrorists among them to make them dangerous. What a great group of people.

[Slizor]

ISRAEL'S CASE

-The "Pre-Isrealites" had the land given to them by the U.N.

And...?

-Israel has taken better care of the land then their former owners (planted forests, irrigated, etc.) and has set up a somewhat fair government.

The government is not fair, at all. It suppress's the people who were there originally.

-The Jews were prosecuted and murdered throughout history and were forced to roam all over the world.

So?

-History states that the Jews were kicked out of Israel by the Romans who established Palestine.

That's too long ago.

PALESTINE'S CASE

-The Palestinians lived in the area when it was taken from them were already well settled there.
-Once the nation of Israel was established the Palestinians were not given equal rights to the Jews.
-The Palestinians belive that the prescence of the Israelis is smothering and they are waging a racist war.

The Isrealites started it.

-The Palestinians had been dwelling in that area for quite some time before it was taken.

[RadamClock]

i own them both

[chrcolbean]

At 2/14/02 11:05 AM, Slizor wrote:

ISRAEL'S CASE

-The "Pre-Isrealites" had the land given to them by the U.N.

And...?

According to UN standards they "own" the land.

-Israel has taken better care of the land then their former owners (planted forests, irrigated, etc.) and has set up a somewhat fair government.

The government is not fair, at all. It suppress's the people who were there originally.

Supresses them? And who was there originally exactly? Not many. The people that were there were given equal rights (although Jews were favored a bit). Plus, I said somewhat fair (certainly more then the surronding governments).

-The Jews were prosecuted and murdered throughout history and were forced to roam all over the world.

So?

So that's why they felt it neccesary to have a home.

-History states that the Jews were kicked out of Israel by the Romans who established Palestine.

That's too long ago.

Agreed, although its a non-religious claim the Jewish people have.

PALESTINE'S CASE

-The Palestinians lived in the area when it was taken from them were already well settled there.
-Once the nation of Israel was established the Palestinians were not given equal rights to the Jews.
-The Palestinians belive that the prescence of the Israelis is smothering and they are waging a racist war.

The Isrealites started it.

The Israelites had not started anything. They wanted some land and did not bother anyone. Then six different nations declared war on them. That's not starting it. Although if you're counting the incident in Lebanon, yes, the Israelites started that.

-The Palestinians had been dwelling in that area for quite some time before it was taken.

[Slizor]

According to UN standards they "own" the land.

And..?

Supresses them? And who was there originally exactly? Not many. The people that were there were given equal rights (although Jews were favored a bit). Plus, I said somewhat fair (certainly more then the surronding governments).

"Palestinians were trying to get on with their daily journeys that Saturday as any other working day. Movements are severely restricted by the Israeli border closure policy and so a simple journey to work, to school, to hospital, to visit family and friends turns into a long and humiliating wait at one or more of the around 130 checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The crowd at that checkpoint were resigned; nervous, but un- responsive to the violence taking place just metres from them. It was, to my foreign eyes, a sign of the "everydayness" of it all; another checkpoint, another shooting."

So that's why they felt it neccesary to have a home.

Does it justify them kicking the palestinians out? No. Being a jew is not being part of a nation, it's a religion.

[chrcolbean]

At 2/15/02 07:46 AM, Slizor wrote:

According to UN standards they "own" the land.

And..?
And they officially own the land. That's an argument for why they own IsraelPalestine.

Supresses them? And who was there originally exactly? Not many. The people that were there were given equal rights (although Jews were favored a bit). Plus, I said somewhat fair (certainly more then the surronding governments).

"Palestinians were trying to get on with their daily journeys that Saturday as any other working day. Movements are severely restricted by the Israeli border closure policy and so a simple journey to work, to school, to hospital, to visit family and friends turns into a long and humiliating wait at one or more of the around 130 checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The crowd at that checkpoint were resigned; nervous, but un- responsive to the violence taking place just metres from them. It was, to my foreign eyes, a sign of the "everydayness" of it all; another checkpoint, another shooting."
If all of those checkpoints are removed it will be much easier for a terrorist to get through. Its no suprise that the Palestinians are being generilized, because guess what? They're mostly Israelite-hating, and a few are terrorists.

So that's why they felt it neccesary to have a home.

Does it justify them kicking the palestinians out? No. Being a jew is not being part of a nation, it's a religion.

They never kicked any Palestinans out. The Palestinians left when they heard all of the Arab propaganda that they would be attacked. And another thing, the nation was established for the Jews and by the Jews (with a little help from the UN). The nation is a Jewish one primarily, and that is the reason why they established it.

[Slizor]

They never kicked any Palestinans out. The Palestinians left when they heard all of the Arab propaganda that they would be attacked.

So there was just a mass exodus of people?

And another thing, the nation was established for the Jews and by the Jews (with a little help from the UN).

Yes! For the Jews and By the Jews on Arab land!

[chrcolbean]

At 2/15/02 04:29 PM, Slizor wrote:

They never kicked any Palestinans out. The Palestinians left when they heard all of the Arab propaganda that they would be attacked.

So there was just a mass exodus of people?

Yes.

And another thing, the nation was established for the Jews and by the Jews (with a little help from the UN).

Yes! For the Jews and By the Jews on Arab land!

Actually, you have a good point there. I can't really argue with that, but it was still a small portion of land they decided to get rid of when they were confronted about making a Jewish state. But then you also have to agree that the Zionists did deserve at least a small portion of the land because they were the ones that helped get rid of the British (it's kindo of funny how they're called "imperialists" if they were the ones who helped get rid of the British).

[Pecos]

A few corrections..

1. There is no such place as Palestine (never was). Palestinians never had an official government set up there before the creation of Israel.

2. Jews were in that area thousands of years ago. Palestinians and Jews are pretty much cousins, because they are both from that area and have equal rights to the land and its resources.

Terrorists are recruited off the street, because these are desperate people who are poor and whose families are starving. So they give their own lives and are promised that their families will be taken care of. But the reason they are poor is if Israelis block them from entering Israeli territory, they can't get jobs there. So decent Palestinians are blocked from entering to prevent terrorists from coming in. So they then turn into terrorists.. and the cycle just keeps on going. So it's no one's fault but the Palestinians. Until they agree to peacefully co-exist, they'll be under Israeli control (somewhat).

Also think about this.. Israel has the power to wipe out all the Palestinians. But they don't. Now ask yourself if Palestinians would be holding themselves back like this if they had the power? Of course not - if they had anything more to fight with other than stones, they would. Because they have no desire for peaceful co-existance, they just want to kill all the Jews.

(NOTE: I'm obviously not talking about all the Palestinians and all the Jews.. but the majority)

[Pecos]

At 2/15/02 07:46 AM, Slizor wrote: "Palestinians were trying to get on with their daily journeys that Saturday as any other working day. Movements are severely restricted by the Israeli border closure policy and so a simple journey to work, to school, to hospital, to visit family and friends turns into a long and humiliating wait at one or more of the around 130 checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The crowd at that checkpoint were resigned; nervous, but un- responsive to the violence taking place just metres from them. It was, to my foreign eyes, a sign of the "everydayness" of it all; another checkpoint, another shooting."

It's their own damn fault. The checkpoints are set up to prevent terrorists from entering.

Does it justify them kicking the palestinians out? No. Being a jew is not being part of a nation, it's a religion.

No one kicked them off. They were given a choice to stay and live within the Jewish community. And many did stay and are still there now. The assholes who refused to live with people who are different are the ones who moved into the Palestinian-controlled areas.

[Commander-K25]

You have to admit though, right or wrong, the Israelis are at least a lot more civilized in their fighting. Palestinians recruit young men to go shoot kids at bar-mitzvahs and blow up women and children with suicide bombs. In one incident, they set off a bomb near a bus and then they hung around to shoot the survivors until the police approached.

The Israelis retaliate, they don't make pre-emptive attacks. And when they do they attack PLO milita and security forces. People that are guilty and can fight back. They don't go and slaughter kids in the street, they attack and arrest those responsible. Israel's taken enough from them and if they eventually have to kick all Palestinians out to stop the bombings and protect their own citizens, then they certainly have a right to. They have to take this matter into their own hands because Arafat doesn't truly want peace. He's turned down reasonable peace offers in the past.

[Slizor]

A few corrections

2. Jews were in that area thousands of years ago. Palestinians and Jews are pretty much cousins, because they are both from that area and have equal rights to the land and its resources.

An Israeli does not have to be Jewish, a Jew does not have to be Israeli. ost of the Jews came from places like Germany, where they had settled. It was their land, now, they've gone and taken someone else's land.

Terrorists are recruited off the street, because these are desperate people who are poor and whose families are starving. So they give their own lives and are promised that their families will be taken care of. But the reason they are poor is if Israelis block them from entering Israeli territory, they can't get jobs there. So decent Palestinians are blocked from entering to prevent terrorists from coming in. So they then turn into terrorists.. and the cycle just keeps on going. So it's no one's fault but the Palestinians. Until they agree to peacefully co-exist, they'll be under Israeli control (somewhat).

Peace, what peace has been offered? The peace of being bombed? Of being shot for no reason? No, the aggressor here is Israel, the proof? They have taken the land, they have attacked countries surronding the land, they have oppressed the people there before them.

"You activate terrorists to plant bombs in cars of their elected mayors, you arm the settlers and a few Arab quislings to run rampages through Arab towns, pogroms against property, not aginst people. A few Arabs have been killed by settlers. The murderers are known, but the police are virtually helpless. They have their orders. What's your excuse for not speaking against these violations of Israeli law and Jewish Morality?"
From an article in Ha'aretz, a jewish paper. Talking about the actions of Ariel Sharon.

[Slizor]

The Israelis retaliate, they don't make pre-emptive attacks. And when they do they attack PLO milita and security forces. People that are guilty and can fight back. They don't go and slaughter kids in the street, they attack and arrest those responsible. Israel's taken enough from them and if they eventually have to kick all Palestinians out to stop the bombings and protect their own citizens, then they certainly have a right to. They have to take this matter into their own hands because Arafat doesn't truly want peace. He's turned down reasonable peace offers in the past.

I forgot that sending planes to go bomb the Palestinians is civilised. "There is no civility in war"

[VA7DAS]

At 2/13/02 09:48 PM, chrcolbean wrote: Now I know that religions conflict, so I'm going to leave religion out of this. This is a tense topic and has been the cause of violence. Yet who does it really belong to?

Who cares, have you seen Israels military. They have brought the world many advancements in military technology. They could beat any of it's niegbours in an armed conflict right now. If you could move the jews out of Israel, and live to tell about it, you deserve the missreble peice of fucking land.

By the way, Israel has parliamentary democracy, to say this form of government is unstable or unfair is also say that Canada, Australia, and New Zealand to list a few, is unstable or unfair becuase they are parliamentary democracys to.

[Pecos]

At 2/17/02 05:32 PM, Slizor wrote: An Israeli does not have to be Jewish, a Jew does not have to be Israeli. ost of the Jews came from places like Germany, where they had settled. It was their land, now, they've gone and taken someone else's land.

No, they came TO Germany FROM what's today known as Israel.

Peace, what peace has been offered? The peace of being bombed? Of being shot for no reason? No, the aggressor here is Israel, the proof? They have taken the land, they have attacked countries surronding the land, they have oppressed the people there before them.

Not a single truthful fact was stated there.

You really are an idiot. I don't know why I still bother with your pointless arguments. I don't think I'll be doing that anymore.

[Slizor]

No, they came TO Germany FROM what's today known as Israel.

And originally, everyone came from Africa, so does everyone own it?

Peace, what peace has been offered? The peace of being bombed? Of being shot for no reason? No, the aggressor here is Israel, the proof? They have taken the land, they have attacked countries surronding the land, they have oppressed the people there before them.

Not a single truthful fact was stated there.

You could ask for sources, but you don't, I'll still bombard you with them anyway.

"British headlines are full of suicide bombs, raids on Jewish settlements, inter-Palestinian violence. My experience of the past few weeks, which has included listening to Israeli F16 bombers flying low over Gaza City for two consecutive nights, is that the real drama is being played out in the grim day to day existence of Palestinians who can't travel, whose children wet the bed at night as soon as they hear the planes."

"There are traumatised children on both sides and it is invidious to try to quantify the suffering. There is no helpful measure of fear. But fear and suffering there is and it will take all of the costly dignity we encountered among ordinary Palestinians to withstand such trauma. It will take all of the goodwill we encountered among some ordinary Israelis towards Palestinians to encourage their government to rein in their well-trained and brutalised army that regularly shoots at children. It will also take the political will of the British and other European governments to speak bravely in defence of the human rights of all sides in the Middle East; but particularly now, to call for the end of the occupation and violation of the Palestinian people. "

As for the invading surronding countires, go look up the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.

You really are an idiot. I don't know why I still bother with your pointless arguments. I don't think I'll be doing that anymore.

That is the weakest argument ever. You just blantently refuse to believe what I say. Well keep your ignorance then, see if I care.

[ShockAndTerror]

At 2/13/02 09:48 PM, chrcolbean wrote: Who Owns IsraelPalestine?

I DO! I DO!

[Commander-K25]

At 2/17/02 05:35 PM, Slizor wrote:

The Israelis retaliate, they don't make pre-emptive attacks. And when they do they attack PLO milita and security forces. People that are guilty and can fight back. They don't go and slaughter kids in the street, they attack and arrest those responsible. Israel's taken enough from them and if they eventually have to kick all Palestinians out to stop the bombings and protect their own citizens, then they certainly have a right to. They have to take this matter into their own hands because Arafat doesn't truly want peace. He's turned down reasonable peace offers in the past.

I forgot that sending planes to go bomb the Palestinians is civilised. "There is no civility in war"

So encouraging little kids to martyr themselves and men to strap explosives to themselves and blow up women and children, is that civilized? Ambushing 73 year old ladies on the highway with machine gun fire and grenades, firing mortars into towns and settlements, is that civilised? At least the Israelis shoot at people who have guns.

[Commander-K25]

EYE ON THE MEDIA: The Truth Behind Palestinian Broadcasts
By Andrea Levin

(January 27) - CNN reporter Rula Amin's zealous pro-Palestinian bias was conspicuous once again on January 19.

Recounting Israeli destruction of several floors of the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation in Ramallah, in the wake of the Palestinian murder of Jewish guests at a bat mitzva in Hadera, she presented only angry, distraught Arab speakers denouncing Israel. (The radio arm of the PBC resumed broadcasting almost immediately from another locale and the main headquarters of the television division located in Gaza was untouched, permitting most of its programs to continue.)

Amin's only nod to Israeli views was a perfunctory: "Israel says the Voice of Palestine is used by the Palestinian Authority for incitement against Israel and Israelis." She quickly added: "Palestinian officials say they only report what Israel does."

Amin omitted mention of even one example of the incendiary content Israelis have long protested.

Indeed, among the most disastrous developments in the pursuit of peace between Israelis and Palestinians must surely be counted the creation of the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation. Established in the early years of Oslo, both the television and radio arms soon became potent vehicles for amplifying anti-Israel propaganda in a way that had not been possible previously.

From the outset, PA television has offered sinister fare. One 1998 Palestinian children’s series presented sweet-faced little girls singing songs about becoming suicide bombers and drenching the ground with blood in the march to Jerusalem.

Against a backdrop of Disney figures, teachers
exclaimed "Bravo, bravo!" to those most ardently pledging themselves to violence. Declarations of devotion to martyrdom and extolling of past terrorist killers of Israelis were commonplace.

More recently, as Palestinian negotiators at Camp David moved toward abandoning peace talks in the summer of 2000, PA television turned to graphic images of old intifada clashes and funerals. Martial music accompanied inflammatory footage.

With the outbreak of rioting in September 2000, Palestinian broadcasting continued to stoke violence. A news story by USA Today's Jack Kelley about the Voice of Palestine radio described in dramatic fashion agitated VOP radio reports claiming Israel was bombing and killing children in Bethlehem.

Yet on visiting that town, all was quiet.

Similar fraudulent reports charged "settlers" were "shooting Palestinian women" in Hebron, where no such violence had occurred. In Nablus Israeli troops were alleged to be "burning homes" – where, again, no such thing was happening.

One report, according to Kelley, even claimed "hundreds of jets and helicopters are taking off from the aircraft carrier belonging to the criminal occupation force." Israel has no aircraft carriers. PA television has regularly delivered as well incendiary Friday sermons by religious leaders. One day after the Ramallah lynching of two Israelis, Ahmad Abu Halabiya, a member of the PA-appointed Fatwa Council, called on listeners to find and butcher Jews "no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them."

One week after the Dolphinarium bombing on June 1, 2001 in Tel Aviv in which 21 people, mainly young girls, were killed, PA television carried the sermon of Sheik Ibrahim Al-Madhi. He said: "Blessings to whoever waged Jihad for the sake of Allah; blessings to whoever raided for the sake of Allah; blessings to whoever put a belt of explosives on his body or on his sons' and plunged into the midst of the Jews, crying 'Allahu Akbar...'" In July, a Friday sermon on PA TV exhorted Palestinians to train their children in the "love of Jihad for the sake of Allah and the love of fighting for the sake of Allah." Sheik Ibrahim Al-Madhi told his audience that "local" Jews not from other countries, and Christians, could live as "Dhimmis" among the Muslims – as unequal, subordinate peoples.

In August on PA television, Sheik Isma'il Aal Ghadwan admonished listeners to seek martyrdom, holding up as a model those who offered their own mutilated bodies as tokens of sacrifice. He said: "The sacrifice of convoys of martyrs [will continue] until Allah grants us victory very soon.

The willingness for sacrifice and for death we see amongst those who were cast by Allah into a war with the Jews, should not come at all as a surprise..." (All translations are from MEMRI, Middle East Media Research Institute.)

One Palestinian broadcast that made news in 2001 on American television was that containing, in the words of NBC correspondent Martin Fletcher, a "commercial" for child martyrdom. In vivid re-enactments, Palestinian boys and girls were shown how to put down their "toys" and pick up rocks and follow the path of martyrs. In the video, paradise awaiting after death is depicted as an inviting, green, sunlit meadow where friends meet and play.

That CNN – and many other media outlets – should report Israeli attacks against PA broadcasting structures without so much as a mention of the vile hatred emanating from its airwaves, poisoning the lives of Palestinians and Israelis alike, is testimony to the determination of some outlets to purvey a distorted, anti-Israel image of the conflict no matter how divorced their coverage may be from the conflict’s realities.

[Slizor]

So encouraging little kids to martyr themselves and men to strap explosives to themselves and blow up women and children, is that civilized? Ambushing 73 year old ladies on the highway with machine gun fire and grenades, firing mortars into towns and settlements, is that civilised? At least the Israelis shoot at people who have guns.

Did I ever say that the Palestienians were civilised? No. And the Israelis don't just shoot at people with guns...
"I was with a small group of women priests, supported by Christian Aid, visiting different places and people on both sides of the conflict in Israel/Palestine. To my English eyes, the very sight of soldiers with machine guns on either side of us was unnerving; then we spotted five boys, probably about 13 years old, throwing occasional stones at the Israeli soldiers ahead of us. We stood and watched from our position in the crowd, secretly admiring their nerve if not their accuracy. One of the soldiers had clearly had enough and aimed his gun at them. He can't shoot, we thought; they're unarmed and they're only boys.

But he did. He took aim and fired directly at them. They scattered, and for a moment we thought one of them had been hit. Not content with this result, the soldier climbed up on to one of the concrete posts, clearly visible against the sky, and took slow aim and fired again, and again."

[chrcolbean]

At 3/1/02 01:49 PM, Slizor wrote:

So encouraging little kids to martyr themselves and men to strap explosives to themselves and blow up women and children, is that civilized? Ambushing 73 year old ladies on the highway with machine gun fire and grenades, firing mortars into towns and settlements, is that civilised? At least the Israelis shoot at people who have guns.

Did I ever say that the Palestienians were civilised? No. And the Israelis don't just shoot at people with guns...
"I was with a small group of women priests, supported by Christian Aid, visiting different places and people on both sides of the conflict in Israel/Palestine. To my English eyes, the very sight of soldiers with machine guns on either side of us was unnerving; then we spotted five boys, probably about 13 years old, throwing occasional stones at the Israeli soldiers ahead of us. We stood and watched from our position in the crowd, secretly admiring their nerve if not their accuracy. One of the soldiers had clearly had enough and aimed his gun at them. He can't shoot, we thought; they're unarmed and they're only boys.

But he did. He took aim and fired directly at them. They scattered, and for a moment we thought one of them had been hit. Not content with this result, the soldier climbed up on to one of the concrete posts, clearly visible against the sky, and took slow aim and fired again, and again."

Hey, I don't want to seem like a merciless bastard, but tell me, if you're surrounded by terrorists, ordered to be on alert at all times, and extremely paranoid at the moment with a Palestinian kid throwing objects at you, do you think that you'll take it as a threat? Sure, the soldier's action was uncalled for, but you can understand his motive.

Buy the way, an interesting thing I found out, the Arabs WILLINGLY SOLD UNWANTED LAND for jacked up prices to the Israelis who FARMED THE LAND AND PROSPERED unlike the land's former Arab owners. Tel-Aviv is a good example. What was once sand dunes is now a big city, that is quite remarkable. If you want to give the Palestinians land that they didn't want and sold for way over its normal price that they didn't even take care of, it's a little strange. The Jews came with no bad intent, just to escape from the pogroms in Christian Europe to their homeland. Eventually when some Arabs decided they didn't like a Jew next to them or prospering off land they thought would never grow, they were obviously pissed off, hence attacking. And the concept of defense among the Jews rose for the first time. Never before did the Jews strike back, but they realized if they wanted to keep the land they LEGALLY OWNED and BOUGHT FROM THE ARABS they had to fight back. The result was more land. So sue them.

By the way Slizor, have you ever read a book by Leon Uris (from the "Trinity" fame) called "The Haj?" I'm reading it right now, it's a great unbiased book about the ninteenth century Israel. You'd like it, it's told from an Arab's point of view and talks a lot about JewishArab history, traditions, and politics.

[Slizor]

Hey, I don't want to seem like a merciless bastard, but tell me, if you're surrounded by terrorists, ordered to be on alert at all times, and extremely paranoid at the moment with a Palestinian kid throwing objects at you, do you think that you'll take it as a threat? Sure, the soldier's action was uncalled for, but you can understand his motive.

Do you know how many people the Palestinians have killed? It's actually about the number the Israelis kill when they send there planes on ONE bombing raid.

Buy the way, an interesting thing I found out, the Arabs WILLINGLY SOLD UNWANTED LAND for jacked up prices to the Israelis who FARMED THE LAND AND PROSPERED unlike the land's former Arab owners. Tel-Aviv is a good example. What was once sand dunes is now a big city, that is quite remarkable. If you want to give the Palestinians land that they didn't want and sold for way over its normal price that they didn't even take care of, it's a little strange. The Jews came with no bad intent, just to escape from the pogroms in Christian Europe to their homeland. Eventually when some Arabs decided they didn't like a Jew next to them or prospering off land they thought would never grow, they were obviously pissed off, hence attacking. And the concept of defense among the Jews rose for the first time. Never before did the Jews strike back, but they realized if they wanted to keep the land they LEGALLY OWNED and BOUGHT FROM THE ARABS they had to fight back. The result was more land. So sue them.

Source it. :D

By the way Slizor, have you ever read a book by Leon Uris (from the "Trinity" fame) called "The Haj?" I'm reading it right now, it's a great unbiased book about the ninteenth century Israel. You'd like it, it's told from an Arab's point of view and talks a lot about JewishArab history, traditions, and politics.

Nothing is ever unbiased.

[HarryParachute]

Israel belongs to the Japanese. Has ever since 225 A.D when Harry Parachute, raising his chainsaw skyward, led the charge of the Royal Ostrich Fusilliers company B during the battle of the Blue Monkey against the last of the Pangeans.

Don't you people know anything?

[chrcolbean]

At 3/1/02 07:00 PM, Slizor wrote:

Hey, I don't want to seem like a merciless bastard, but tell me, if you're surrounded by terrorists, ordered to be on alert at all times, and extremely paranoid at the moment with a Palestinian kid throwing objects at you, do you think that you'll take it as a threat? Sure, the soldier's action was uncalled for, but you can understand his motive.

Do you know how many people the Palestinians have killed? It's actually about the number the Israelis kill when they send there planes on ONE bombing raid.

Source it! >:D

Buy the way, an interesting thing I found out, the Arabs WILLINGLY SOLD UNWANTED LAND for jacked up prices to the Israelis who FARMED THE LAND AND PROSPERED unlike the land's former Arab owners. Tel-Aviv is a good example. What was once sand dunes is now a big city, that is quite remarkable. If you want to give the Palestinians land that they didn't want and sold for way over its normal price that they didn't even take care of, it's a little strange. The Jews came with no bad intent, just to escape from the pogroms in Christian Europe to their homeland. Eventually when some Arabs decided they didn't like a Jew next to them or prospering off land they thought would never grow, they were obviously pissed off, hence attacking. And the concept of defense among the Jews rose for the first time. Never before did the Jews strike back, but they realized if they wanted to keep the land they LEGALLY OWNED and BOUGHT FROM THE ARABS they had to fight back. The result was more land. So sue them.

Source it. :D

The book I was talking about... and yes, it's accurate (Leon Uris was the author, it's definately true).

By the way Slizor, have you ever read a book by Leon Uris (from the "Trinity" fame) called "The Haj?" I'm reading it right now, it's a great unbiased book about the ninteenth century Israel. You'd like it, it's told from an Arab's point of view and talks a lot about JewishArab history, traditions, and politics.

Nothing is ever unbiased.

Jeez, tough crowd. Okay, not completely unbiased, leans a little more towards Arabs, but it's a change for the common things you hear about the conflict (unless you subscribe to socialist news letters). Anyway, as of now, it seems that Leon Uris thinks that both sides are at fault. Anyway, just read it to find out. Just started today and I'm up to page 50 in about 1 hour... can't stop reading it, it's great. Just pick up a copy, you'll like it.

[Commander-K25]

March 26, 2001 - March 26, 2001 Terrorist gunfire kills one and injures one in Hebron. At about 5:00 this afternoon an Arab sniper shot and killed a 10 month old baby girl, Shalhevet Techiya Pass, and wounded her father, Yitzhak Pass, with two bullets in the legs. They were shot at the entrance to the Avraham Avinu neighborhood. The baby was in the mother's arms at the time of the shooting and was hit in the head. Emergency medical teams arrived immediately. The father was treated and evacuated to hospital. The doctors were not able to save the baby.

[Commander-K25]

January 17, 2002 - On Thursday night, a terrorist entered the David Palace hall on Weizmann Avenue in Hadera and began spraying the 180 guests celebrating the bat-mitzva of 12-year-old Nina Kardashova with automatic gunfire. The terrorist, who also carried grenades, was pushed outside by guests and killed by police who quickly arrived at the scene.

[Commander-K25]

February 27, 2002 - Gad Rejwan, 34, of Jerusalem, was shot and killed by one of his Palestinian employees in a factory in the Atarot industrial area, north of Jerusalem. The industrial area lies just south of Ramallah, within Jerusalem city limits. The Palestinian, who had worked at the factory for several years and had no record of labor disputes with Rejwan, part-owner of the Rejwan coffee factory. Early Wednesday morning he walked into the employer's office and shot him twice in the head at close range, then fled the scene. Two Fatah groups issued a joint statement taking responsibility for the murder.

Gad Rejwan was buried in Jerusalem. He leaves behind his parents, Alfred and Margalit, two brothers and a sister, his wife Maya, and their 7-year-old daughter Ann.

[Commander-K25]

May 9, 2001 - Israel awoke once again this morning to horrific news, this time of the double murder of two 8th-grade boys outside their eastern Gush Etzion community of Tekoa. The two, Kobi Mandell and Yosef Ishran, set off yesterday morning to "clear their heads," in the words of a Tekoa resident; they went to the Haritun area in Tekoa's "back yard," some 300 meters from the most outlying house. They did not inform their parents, and only after dark, when they did not come home from school at the regular time, did searches begin. Their bodies, with severe signs of violence, were found in one of the nearby caves early this morning.

Haritun is a popular spot for hikers from all over Israel. A classmate of the murdered boys later said, "They told me two days ago that they were planning to go to Haritun; I didn't even think to tell them not to go, because it's a common [place to go]..." Many Tekoa children said they would continue to hike there.

Gush Etzion Regional Council head Sha'ul Goldstein said today, "All these questions about whether they went with permission or without permission - it's all irrelevant!…" He warned, "The residents' fuse is very short… We will respond; we will strike back at those who strike at us. I am against hitting the innocent Palestinian population - but there is no such thing, because they are all incited by the PA in the media and the school textbooks to murder Jews... Two boys happen upon some Arabs, who did not plan this murder in advance, but were rather treated to a constant dose of incitement to hatred and murder... We demand that the government shut down the Palestinian media, which incessantly broadcasts incitement to hatred and murder..."

The double funeral set out from Tekoa late this afternoon, and was scheduled to make its first stop at the Gush Etzion intersection, where eulogies were to be delivered. From there, the mourners will part ways: Kobi Mandell will be buried in Kfar Etzion, and Yosef Ishran will be buried in Har HaMenuchot in Jerusalem.

The IDF entered a PA police station near Tekoa this afternoon and arrested over 20 Arab suspects. Palestinians near Tekoa stole a herd of 100 goats from a Jewish shepherd in the area; some of those arrested admitted to stealing the herd. The army has closed off exits from the area, in an attempt to catch the murderers. The preliminary investigation has shown that the boys were murdered yesterday afternoon; the boys fought with their killers, but were overcome and cruelly stoned and stabbed to death.

[Commander-K25]

At 3/1/02 01:49 PM, Slizor wrote:

So encouraging little kids to martyr themselves and men to strap explosives to themselves and blow up women and children, is that civilized? Ambushing 73 year old ladies on the highway with machine gun fire and grenades, firing mortars into towns and settlements, is that civilised? At least the Israelis shoot at people who have guns.

Did I ever say that the Palestienians were civilised? No. And the Israelis don't just shoot at people with guns...
"I was with a small group of women priests, supported by Christian Aid, visiting different places and people on both sides of the conflict in Israel/Palestine. To my English eyes, the very sight of soldiers with machine guns on either side of us was unnerving; then we spotted five boys, probably about 13 years old, throwing occasional stones at the Israeli soldiers ahead of us. We stood and watched from our position in the crowd, secretly admiring their nerve if not their accuracy. One of the soldiers had clearly had enough and aimed his gun at them. He can't shoot, we thought; they're unarmed and they're only boys.

But he did. He took aim and fired directly at them. They scattered, and for a moment we thought one of them had been hit. Not content with this result, the soldier climbed up on to one of the concrete posts, clearly visible against the sky, and took slow aim and fired again, and again."

Some of those "harmless", supposedly unarmed Palestinian children are not always so hamrless or unarmed.