What about Africa!?

[Cyborg-Turtle]

First off, please excuse any mis-information, or such things. I have not heard the Bush speech myself, and this topic is mainly influenced by a topic mentioned from my Geography Teacher. If only I had paid more attention to what he was saying. I think it was the whole, 'black people this/white people that' crap, going on...as if other colors don't have problems with racism and such, too. I'm also hoping some of you can provide me with arguments to throw in, or maybe even clarify things, I disagreed with some of what he said, but didn't know how to put it out. So all of this is gotten from what I can remember, of what he said.(lol hope that last remark made since)

Ok so not so long ago, Bush made a speech, about "freedom".

Freedom for other countries, such as Iran, Iraq.*remember if those aren't the countries that were mentioned, I apologize I hadn't actually heard the speech myself, so a link to it would be nice) But what I think he is actually in for, which I don't know who wouldn't be, is the MONEY. I think it's somewhere in the middle eastern countries we're in right now, that supposedly has a large amount of Oil. Oil = great profit, so it just kind of adds up. Hey didn't cheney(or some other x-president)own some kind of oil-refinery/factory some-where around there? Which is now making A LOT of money....

But besides that, Bush(or rather the people who make his speeches) claims to want to help with "issues" that those countries have. I'm not saying that they don't but, what ever happened to Africa? Weren't those issues brought up way before the middle eastern issues? And are still going on NOW?Isn't their country way bigger than most of middle east, therefore bigger problems?

Is it because they don't have much oil? Is it because there are mainly "black people" getting killed, and not enough whites for it to be of concern? I'm not saying we should pack up and leave the middle east...it's just, as the topic says; what- about- AFRICA!?

[Conflicted]

At 1/22/05 03:39 AM, Cyborg-Turtle wrote: First off, please excuse any mis-information, or such things. I have not heard the Bush speech myself, and this topic is mainly influenced by a topic mentioned from my Geography Teacher. If only I had paid more attention to what he was saying. I think it was the whole, 'black people this/white people that' crap, going on...as if other colors don't have problems with racism and such, too. I'm also hoping some of you can provide me with arguments to throw in, or maybe even clarify things, I disagreed with some of what he said, but didn't know how to put it out. So all of this is gotten from what I can remember, of what he said.(lol hope that last remark made since)

Ok so not so long ago, Bush made a speech, about "freedom".

Freedom for other countries, such as Iran, Iraq.*remember if those aren't the countries that were mentioned, I apologize I hadn't actually heard the speech myself, so a link to it would be nice) But what I think he is actually in for, which I don't know who wouldn't be, is the MONEY. I think it's somewhere in the middle eastern countries we're in right now, that supposedly has a large amount of Oil. Oil = great profit, so it just kind of adds up. Hey didn't cheney(or some other x-president)own some kind of oil-refinery/factory some-where around there? Which is now making A LOT of money....

But besides that, Bush(or rather the people who make his speeches) claims to want to help with "issues" that those countries have. I'm not saying that they don't but, what ever happened to Africa? Weren't those issues brought up way before the middle eastern issues? And are still going on NOW?Isn't their country way bigger than most of middle east, therefore bigger problems?

Is it because they don't have much oil? Is it because there are mainly "black people" getting killed, and not enough whites for it to be of concern? I'm not saying we should pack up and leave the middle east...it's just, as the topic says; what- about- AFRICA!?

Africa. Hm.
They haven't even been expelled from the Commonwealth yet.
Instead The Queens grandson is sleeping with the enemy.
Very nice for political relations.

Africa is yet to pose a threat (be it real or not) to America. Until it does so, I doubt America will be willing to act on it. Let alone send any kind of peace keeping mission. America has already dedicated billions to the war on terrorism, Iraq, etc. They can at least justify those actions (whether we choose to accept them or not, is another matter) based on the apparent presence of WMD.
No shit it was for oil,
No shit a lot of people died for the wrong reasons.
What does America have to gain from Africa?
Once you find something, post it to The White House.
Troops will be deployed the following week.

The situation in Africa is hugely different from that of Iraq. And what the fuck are you talking about mainly blacks being killed?
Mugabe's government has committed rape, murder, abduction, enslavement.
A strict regime that was once acclaimed for helping to restore the nations struggling economy, following war & drought, Mugabe's rule is now nothing short of brutal.

For a country that sources its survival on agriculture, evicting thousands of white farmers off their land in order to relocate it to black Zimbabweans is not a wise move.

Mugabe argues it is justice: reversing the inequality of the former British rule that left land in the hands of 5,000 whites. Ownership deeds have now been abolished, leaving new farmers with no collateral to attain equipment, thus leading the land to waste, anyway.

Of the 190 miles of train tracks that the National Railways of Zimambe lays to claim, functioning signals work on a mere 12.
Sign boards & gun powder are used instead.

Facing a shortage of ambulances, nine oxen hauled wooden carts were put into action. Even then, it was the United Nations Children's Fund that paid for these 'ambulances.' Doctors tie newborns umbilical cords off with string; salt is used in place of toothpaste.

Kerosene is no longer readily available, so many have turned to wood as a source of light & heat. This in turn, has caused extensive deforestation.

Employment has hit a high of 80%, forcing more young women into prostitution. As a consequence, instances of HIV & AIDS has risen dramatically.

Zimbabwe continues to plunge further into poverty & chaos. Outside nations are unwillinging to donate aid, though their efforts to boycott the situation are only making it worse. No one wants to intervene, the closest we have come is threatening Mugabe with expulsion from the commonwealth.
Oh, big threat:
Like he really gives a fuck.

There is no need to fight Africa.
Africa is too busy fighting itself.

[D2Kvirus]

Sorry, I thought this thread was about how everyone quickly kicked the Sudan to the back of the queue in order to give tsunami relief to tourist destinations of decadent westerners...

[Cyborg-Turtle]

Interesting conflicted...thanks...but remember what I posted weren't really my words, but my teachers.

As for fighting Africa, I was actually talking about helping them, as bush claimed he would help Iraq, Iran, etc...when I think we all know what he really wants....

[Cyborg-Turtle]

Actually I heard salt is supposed to be some-what "healthier" than toothepaste...something to do with the fluoride ingredient in the toothepaste...I dunno

But yeah, I hear there are still wars going on in Africa.

Ofcourse, since they aren't much of a threat to us....not much can be done. But if there are claims to "help" countries who need it, why not help Africa?

[poxpower]

At 1/22/05 12:40 PM, D2KVirus wrote: Sorry, I thought this thread was about how everyone quickly kicked the Sudan to the back of the queue in order to give tsunami relief to tourist destinations of decadent westerners...

Aren't politics the COOLEST thing ever?
:)

who the hell would help Africa?? Half of their countries have insane leaders and we already get everything valuable from exploiting them. Let's just keep sending in a couple rice-filled condoms once in a while, and everyting will be juuuuuuuuust fine.
In the meantimes, don't forget to donate to clear the tourist beaches in Indonesia :o It would be greatyl apreciated, as some people have booked their vacations weeks before the disaster and can't get a refund, and now they aren't getting their money's worth.

if there's one thing I hate, its to see people's hard-earned cash going to waste.

[The-King-of-Wolves]

It's the world of Realpolitik. No one cares about ideals like "humanity" or "brotherhood" it's all about, "what can I get from these people." If Africa was rich, prosperous and a great ally of the US then they'd help them at the drop of a hat. Since Africa is poor, underdeveloped and has mixed feelings towards the US, they won't do shit. Right now they're getting all they need from Africa without the political mess so they won't touch anything until it needs to be touched. Perhaps when the African leaders start attacking oil refineries or sweatshops maybe then the world will start trying in earnest to do something, but by then it won't be anything positive. So when George Bush talks about "freedom" it really means "freeing up resources"

[drake-daemon]

no one will ever help africa because there is nothing to gain from it (from an economical point of view that is). politics are just like buisness, if its not making money its not gonna happen.

heard a crazy theory once about the only way to really "help" africa. they need an incredibly charismatic leader to pull the continent together and stop various factions from destroying each other, then they have to attack the countries that have suppressed them so long. even if they were defeated it would boost the economy (same way ww2 heled pul north america out of the great depression). feasable? no, but kidna strange to think about.

the whole situation is nuts though. i would love to do something to help but even if i had the resources where would i start?

[ReiperX]

At 1/23/05 04:14 AM, drake_daemon wrote:

the whole situation is nuts though. i would love to do something to help but even if i had the resources where would i start?

Few million condoms, more HIV/AIDS treatments, more AIDS/HIV education.

[Snozzwang]

Might want to stop the civil war in Sudan.

How about spreading freedom to South America? I haven't heard from Southa-bloody-merica in years!? (on the news)

But do you know what!? The amazon is getting mauled and churned up at an alarming rate. In 20 years, there'll be nothing there. But have a look, no-one except Greenpeace etc. gives a fuck!

America should keep freedom to itself and anyone else who wants it. People can choose (or sometimes try to) what country they live in - be it free or not.

[JoS]

When did Africa become a country? HEy lets not forget last time the US tried to "help" Africa via military means. 22 Special Forces troops and two helicopters got pwned by untrained, ill equiped (in comparison to the US) militia.

[The-Bi99man]

Yes. What about Africa? Nobody cares. Africa is just there. I think the people of Africa are fine with just being there. Kenya dig it?

[Jimsween]

At 1/23/05 07:54 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: When did Africa become a country? HEy lets not forget last time the US tried to "help" Africa via military means. 22 Special Forces troops and two helicopters got pwned by untrained, ill equiped (in comparison to the US) militia.

Do you mean Black Hawk Down?

22 special forces troops against a thousand militia and the populace of the city? I'd say they kicked ass.

[JoS]

At 1/23/05 08:31 PM, Jimsween wrote:

At 1/23/05 07:54 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: When did Africa become a country? HEy lets not forget last time the US tried to "help" Africa via military means. 22 Special Forces troops and two helicopters got pwned by untrained, ill equiped (in comparison to the US) militia.

Do you mean Black Hawk Down?

22 special forces troops against a thousand militia and the populace of the city? I'd say they kicked ass.

There were over a hundred SF, dozens of helicopters and Humvees with .50s on them. 21 or 22 died, and 2 copters bite the dust, literally. Plus one pilot got taken as a POW.

[Snozzwang]

Lol, Bush thinks Africa is a country

silly guy

[Demosthenez]

At 1/23/05 07:54 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: When did Africa become a country? HEy lets not forget last time the US tried to "help" Africa via military means. 22 Special Forces troops and two helicopters got pwned by untrained, ill equiped (in comparison to the US) militia.

For the losses they took, they gave the locals more than a bloody nose. And gimme a break, when you cant get heavy support (tanks, etc) close because they are setting up road blocks every block, it makes it diffculy for the Armor to make much a different. And I think they killed something like 1000 enemy militia. Thats like 45 enemies killed for every American. I would say that the natives got pwned in a milatiristic sense but won in the psychological one.

[JoS]

Most of them were from helicopters with mini-guns and rockets.

[Demosthenez]

Thats still 1000 people ass raped by like 2 platoons of men (I think, I know they had much less than a company but am not sure).

Its a pretty good ratio any way you put it.

[The-King-of-Wolves]

At 1/23/05 09:17 PM, Snozzwang wrote: Lol, Bush thinks Africa is a country

silly guy

*tumbleweed blows by*

[JoS]

At 1/23/05 09:46 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: Thats still 1000 people ass raped by like 2 platoons of men (I think, I know they had much less than a company but am not sure).

Its a pretty good ratio any way you put it.

Whats the ighest number of soliders killed in one day in Iraq, and think of the time they had to plan, this was pulled out of their ass so to speak, the militia organized on a moments notice with the least amount of intell.

[Apu-OWNZ-U]

Some country or tribe is always at war with someone in africa. It's just pure warfare. I mean fuck it, if we go over there we'll just get caught in the crossfire. Fuck that shit theyre killing each other.

[Apu-OWNZ-U]

If we wanted to, we could get Somalia, i mean if we could get through the roadblocks, they'd be dead. And the 50.'s on the humvess didn't make much of a difference because as your driving you probably don't have much time to target. We could take them, but nothing would be gained in the process. We would still be hated, and we'd loose soldiers in the process.

[Apu-OWNZ-U]

Also, they weren't "organized". Everyone has a gun over there. EVERYONE! All they did was get togther with the people closest and shoot shit up! They seemed organized because they were everywhere, but remember they LIVED where we went, they were only numerous, not "organized"

[Demosthenez]

At 1/24/05 06:14 PM, Duffman74 wrote: Also, they weren't "organized". Everyone has a gun over there. EVERYONE! All they did was get togther with the people closest and shoot shit up! They seemed organized because they were everywhere, but remember they LIVED where we went, they were only numerous, not "organized"

Thats right, we whooped ass on those mothers. And again, like I said, we won definatley in a tactical viewpoint, but they won in the propaganda department.

And they were devout muslims, prating to mecca everyday, and yet they decided to descrate American corpses. Kinda goes to show you how followers of any faith like and pick and choose the doctrine they subscribe to. Kinda pisses me off.

[JoS]

They stopped to pray. And you complain that the Americans couldn't get tanks in becasue of the road blocks. NEWSFLASH: American didn't have tanks there, the Pentagon rejected the request for them. They tanks were from the UN. Thats right, the UN came in and bailed out the American's asses. Had the UN not gone in easily 100 Americans would have been decimated, not just 22. And some of the locals were organized. Read the book, it goes from both sides of the story, there were some organized and some just happend to be there.

[Demosthenez]

At 1/24/05 11:58 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: They stopped to pray.

So? Was that a response to my comment? So were they not devout Muslims? Or were they? I still stand on my assertion.

And you complain that the Americans couldn't get tanks in becasue of the road blocks. NEWSFLASH: American didn't have tanks there, the Pentagon rejected the request for them.

I never said America had tanks there. I know, they were Pakistani. I never said they had American armor there.

They tanks were from the UN. Thats right, the UN came in and bailed out the American's asses. Had the UN not gone in easily 100 Americans would have been decimated, not just 22.

Well, it WAS a UN missin wasnt it? So some amount of ccordination makes sense to me, no?

And some of the locals were organized. Read the book, it goes from both sides of the story, there were some organized and some just happend to be there.

Again, I read it. They were very largely unorganized. They were armed but they were just an armed mob. Pretty damn ineffective. But when you outnumber your enemies like 100 to 1, you dont need to be tactical.

[1Shot-Paddy]

africa was the richest continent in the world before we all fucked it up. The least we could do is wipe of all their debt.

[ReiperX]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/01/26/safrica.condoms.reut/index.html

And of course, the Roman Catholic Church is totally against condom use, or the promotion of it. Blames it for the spread of AIDs. Yeah.

[The-King-of-Wolves]

At 1/26/05 03:03 PM, 1Shot-Paddy wrote: africa was the richest continent in the world before we all fucked it up. The least we could do is wipe of all their debt.

That my friend is incorrect. I know what you mean, Africa has a lot of resources to exploit but the Africans that lived there never really did exploit them (in European terms) in the appopriate way to make wealth. So you couldn't quite call that rich. Rich implies that the Africans themselves were quite wealthy when in reality they weren't. The Egyptians, and the Muslim expansion into Africa is an exception but for most of the people on the continent prior to European influence they were not what you would call rich.

[Draconias]

First of all, contrary to narrowminded beliefs, every war has three categories of reasons explaining it.

The first reason is the public reason, the thing that outrages or frightens the public enough to make them endorse the war; in this case that reason was WMDs.

The second reason is the conspiracy reason, the thing that all the anti-<insert leader> people rally behind; in this case, that reason is the oil in the Middle East which we can not actually exploit at all.

The third reason is the true reason, the thing that motivated the actual government to go to war; in this case, it was a combination of a military action to cause a revolution of Democracy and peace in the Middle East to finally fix all those problems, and an attempt to stabilize this region and improve it to flush out the terrorists and kill these bastards before they can do some real damage to us. These two reasons are what motivated Bush and Congress to go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other reasons were not even close to sufficient to force any action on their part, but those two are.

Second of all, Africa would be a better conquering prospect than the Middle East. What you seem to forget is that Africa has areas where diamonds are worth less than water. If we invaded Africa we would earn Trillions in diamond mining, while invading the Middle East only assures us a stable oil supply. Africa would be a better prospect for politicians to make dirty money from, much better, but it does not have any sufficient problems that require our intervention.